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Posted: 9/14/2004 1:57:16 PM EST
Where can I get registered as pistol AR lowers? I am selling my OA93 in an AWB state (at a loss) and would like a replacement in the near future. out
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:51:31 PM EST
Check your e-mail.

Sammy


Originally Posted By robertmegar:
Where can I get registered as pistol AR lowers? I am selling my OA93 in an AWB state (at a loss) and would like a replacement in the near future. out

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:17:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 1:30:03 PM EST by budam]
There is NO registration for a pistol lower... You can take any non-pistol receiver that has NOT had a buttstock on it and make it into a pistol. Buy a virgin receiver and make it without a need for ANY paperwork.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com

[typod saying receiver rather than buttstock]
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:25:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 9:27:25 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By budam:
There is NO registration for a pistol lower... You can take any non-pistol receiver that has NOT had a receiver on it and make it into a pistol. Buy a virgin receiver and make it without a need for ANY paperwork.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com



Correct.

You do not need to 'register as pistol' unless your state has handgun registration.

All you need is a NIW lower that has never had a stock attached.

All of the BS about registering as pistol, having the 4473 marked a certain way, or having it logged at the manufacturer as a pistol is NOT required by law...



Link Posted: 9/15/2004 12:07:52 AM EST
sorry for the hijack but this is starting to get confusing!

some say register, some 4473 as pistol lower, and then theres this?

so your saying that the lowers i have in my safe that does not have the stock on them could be made into pistols? since the ban is dead does the wight factor still matter? what about having handguards intact?

i understand that the 4473 or whatever is just for the ffl to keep track of what went through and isnt mailed in or nothing so i think this part is true but i remember my ffl writing it down as a rifle reciever. would this be a problem?

thanks for your time and sorry for the hijack
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 2:12:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 3:05:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By budam:
There is NO registration for a pistol lower... You can take any non-pistol receiver that has NOT had a receiver on it and make it into a pistol. Buy a virgin receiver and make it without a need for ANY paperwork.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com



Actually, that should be "never had a butt stock installed" on the lower.

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 3:49:23 AM EST
Now you got me confused guys!!!!

Do I or do I not need to buy as or register it as a pistol lower?
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 11:00:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By robertmegar:
Now you got me confused guys!!!!

Do I or do I not need to buy as or register it as a pistol lower?



You live in NJ, right. And what does it take to purchase a HANDGUN there? Paperwork with the state police, IIRC. To legally build an AR pistol you must comply with ALL laws, FEDERAL and LOCAL.

When I built mine back in PA in 1993, they had a separate paper they sent to the local police, as well as a several day waiting period. My 4473 says "pistol new receiver only", and I retained a copy of it from the dealer, as well as pertinent documentation from HIS conversations directly with ATF on my behalf.

I also retained the original sales order from BM for the lower sent to his shop, where it specifies the receiver was "less stock assy", as that is the MAIN evidence ATF requires, proof that it never was stocked as a rifle.

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 12:16:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 12:17:21 PM EST by robertmegar]
Well that makes a little more sense. About me living in NJ, well let's say that's just temporarily, all my guns are in PR.

Ok, so I think I'll order a stripped lower and register it with local police as pistol and then keep the receipt of order/sale as evidence. Any way to confirm it's status as a legal AR pistol in the future? The receipt will not state pistol or rifle receiver.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:31:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:
Actually, that should be "never had a butt stock installed" on the lower.



Nice catch... Brain fart on my end.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProduc­ts.com
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:33:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By robertmegar:
Well that makes a little more sense. About me living in NJ, well let's say that's just temporarily, all my guns are in PR.



Robert, GIve me a call and I will help you out!!! The least I could do for a customer!

mark
buda@TripleBreakProduc­ts.com
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 1:37:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:
You live in NJ, right. And what does it take to purchase a HANDGUN there? Paperwork with the state police, IIRC. To legally build an AR pistol you must comply with ALL laws, FEDERAL and LOCAL.



Note that different states have different laws...

In MA, you buy the receiver and takeit home to make it. Once made then you declare what it is by sending in paperwork. MA does not consider a incomplete firearm a firearm according to state law. Federal does consider a a receiver a firearm...

I would not be surprised many states do not cover someone buying a receiver and then personally making it into a pistol...

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 5:51:20 PM EST
You know, I keep seeing this crap, and it makes me laugh. No one seems to have a single problem swapping stocks and barrels on a T/C Encore or Contender. Yet we have all these threads yapping about virgin receivers, and rifle/pistol conversions from one to the other.

We mark the 4473 for T/Cs as whatever configuration they're in when we sell them. Frames are just frames.

If either going from a rifle to a pistol is illegal, or going from a pistol to a rifle is illegal, then I have quite a few of my better customers that need to watch their asses.

As well as anyone whose bought a gimmick carbine upper for their Glock or 1911. One way or the other, whether you're putting it on, or taking it off, someone says you're breaking the law.

If we're all so worried about the Bogeyman kicking our doors in, I'd be more worried about this if I had a T/C product, than if I were building an AR pistol.

Bottom line is, build the damned thing. If your pucker factor is cranked up too much by this legal question, then put the barrel wrench away, and find something else to do.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:31:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattimeo:
You know, I keep seeing this crap, and it makes me laugh. No one seems to have a single problem swapping stocks and barrels on a T/C Encore or Contender. Yet we have all these threads yapping about virgin receivers, and rifle/pistol conversions from one to the other.



The difference is that T/C has a court case and judgement behind it...

People ask what is the correct way to do it, so we share the correct way. If you want to do something illegal, you put yourself in jeperdy.

Laugh all you want, I and the majority of people will do it by the book. I do not have any plans on having a cell mate named "bubba."

mark
buda@TripleBreakProduc­ts.com
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:00:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 11:00:18 PM EST by Storm_Tracker]
So therefore in my respective state.. As long as no state law prohibits i may now buy an AR reciever.. register it as a reciever and not a long gun.. Buy a 11.5' or 10.5" bbl and put it on the lower and be perfectly legal.. is this corrrect?

Why is it such a big to do when you buy these short bbls.. With all the NFA warnings etc.. If this is so???

Can anyone help here? Thanks
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:27:00 PM EST
Im bumping my above question with another.. If this is so.. Then can i put a collapsable stock on the pistol.. Saying it was built as a pistol with a shorter bbl??
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:40:59 PM EST
This just muddies the water.

October 1, 1992


Firearms Technical Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Mass. Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Sirs:

The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to
you for information on the following point.

I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially
manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun
receiver, and how this can be done. The Compliance Office said that this
might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write
to you about the criteria and procedures.

For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it
built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target
shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun. I
understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a
rifle. Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be
a handgun receiver? If so, what procedures and paperwork would be
necessary.

Sincerely,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:32:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 7:34:18 PM EST by Dave_A]
It's real simple...

As long as your reciept says 'lower reciever' and not 'rifle', and you assemble it into a PISTOL first, then you are fine...

You can go from pistol to rifle, but not rifle to pistol, due to the definitions of 'pistol' and 'rifle' in the GCA (a 'rifle' is any weapon with a rifled barreld made to fire from a sholder supported position (eg with a stock), or any weapon made from a rifle. The definition of 'pistol' does not include 'any weapon made from'...)...

4473 should say 'stripped lower reciever', not 'pistol' or 'rifle' (it is a fill-in-the-blank, not a checkbox)....
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:17:48 PM EST
tag
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:50:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:
So therefore in my respective state.. As long as no state law prohibits i may now buy an AR reciever.. register it as a reciever and not a long gun.. Buy a 11.5' or 10.5" bbl and put it on the lower and be perfectly legal.. is this corrrect?

Why is it such a big to do when you buy these short bbls.. With all the NFA warnings etc.. If this is so???

Can anyone help here? Thanks



OK. I will try.

Most manuafcturers do not make AR15 pistols and do not really think about them. In general they are used to barrels less than 16" to be put in NFA firearms. They are trying to protect their rear end.

I hope that helps.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:53:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:
Im bumping my above question with another.. If this is so.. Then can i put a collapsable stock on the pistol.. Saying it was built as a pistol with a shorter bbl??



You can only have in the configuration of:

o Pistol means no buttstock with short barrel
o Rifle means butstock, but barrel must be 16" or longer

A pistol CANNOT have a stock, whatsoever.

mark
buda@TripleBreakProducts.com


.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:36:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 1:37:06 AM EST by dr-marley]
Can we put a forward grip on an AR 15 pistol now or do we still have to register it as an AOW?

Dane
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:37:12 AM EST
AOW.

Sammy


Originally Posted By dr-marley:
Can we put a forward grip on an AR 15 pistol now or do we still have to register it as an AOW?

Dane

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:27:22 PM EST
As I read this, I realize just how stupid some damn near all of the firearms laws are. No forward grip on a pistol.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:31:54 PM EST
AOW only has a $5 fee.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:40:00 PM EST
I keep seeing folks (not just this thread; elsewhere too) vociferously pointing out that it IS NOT NECESSARY to have the 4473 reflect the stripped lower as a pistol (barring state-specific requirements, of course) for the purpose of building an AR pistol.

Okay - fine & good. Is there some specific drawback to having it done that way? I only ask because of the strong insistence (here and elsewhere) NOT to do it.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:23:37 PM EST
To transfer an AOW is $5, to make one, as if you were to add a vertical forward grip, is to make an AOW, and that fee is $200.

My ATFE agent said, and I have it in writing via e-mail (I know, I know, won't hold up in court but that is all I can get) saying a stripped lower should be sold and marked on the 4473 as nothing but a stripped lower. To mark it as either rifle or pistol MAY be a violation as there is no way for the seller to know how it will be assembled. How you assemble first is what it is (and I would advise documenting it as best you can). You assemble it first into a pistol, it is a pistol. Then if you want to add a shoulder stock and >16" barrel, you are OK too, just make damned sure you never put the shoulder stock on with a barrel less than 16 inches, just like the Thompson Contender issue. You can swap back and forth from pistol to rifle to pistol all you want, but if you assemble it into a rifle first, it is always a rifle and to go then to a pistol, you must SBR it. Stupid as hell I know, but that is the way it is.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:26:46 AM EST
If you are the builder I believe you have to pay the $200.00 with the form 1. After the first payment then it is only a $5.00 transfer fee.

Thats my opinion and I am not always corect.

Dane
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 4:55:06 PM EST
Are handguards legal on an AR pistol? Can't see any reason why not, but just want to make sure if I decide to go that route. Picattiny railed handguard = ok as long as no vertical grip is added?

Only reason I ask is because every pic I see of one, there is no handguard.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 6:17:34 PM EST
Handguards are OK, but the veritcal grip is not. It has to do with the grip being at a 90 degree (or close) angle to the bore whereas the handguard is parallel.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:19:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 5:25:47 AM EST by HardShell]

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Handguards are OK, but the veritcal grip is not. It has to do with the grip being at a 90 degree (or close) angle to the bore whereas the handguard is parallel.



I'm curious if anybody [cough] BATFE [cough] will be making a stink in the future about railed handguards (4-rail, add-on bottom rail, etc.) on AR pistols because a forward PG could be added/removed so quickly & easily...

I plan on building an AR pistol in the very near future & personally I'd like to have a railed forend on it. An AR pistol IMHO will be just that much more dependent on optics, lights, lasers, etc. & the rails add a lot of flexibility in that arena.


ETA: FWIW, my understanding is that the reason a foregrip is a no-go is that 2 separate pistol grips on a pistol now make it a NFA/AOW, no?
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