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Posted: 9/30/2004 5:02:48 PM EST
Are Troy Ind forends considered free floating? Going by the pics on their site it almost looks like you use part of the original handguard assembly near the end of the barrel to keep them on. So I would venture to say that there not?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:04:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By tkd-0331:
Are Troy Ind forends considered free floating? Going by the pics on their site it almost looks like you use part of the original handguard assembly near the end of the barrel to keep them on. So I would venture to say that there not?



Yes. They use the stock barrel nut but not the delta ring.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:11:06 PM EST
But doesn't free floating mean that the forend is only attached to the upper (barrel nut) and not the other end of the barrel?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:17:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 5:19:05 PM EST by gotm4]
No free floated means that the barrel isn't attached to the receiver anwhere else than at the back (at the barrel nut) A Troy is free floated. The rails are clamped onto the barrel nut. The rails do not touch the barrel nor the front sight assy. I shot one tonight. Hoplophile has a very nice one.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:29:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 5:30:31 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By gotm4:
No free floated means that the barrel isn't attached to the receiver anwhere else than at the back (at the barrel nut) A Troy is free floated. The rails are clamped onto the barrel nut. The rails do not touch the barrel nor the front sight assy. I shot one tonight. Hoplophile has a very nice one.



Interesting question. My thinking is this: If the Troy does lock into the handguard cap (I should know soon, as I have one coming), what is stopping the rail system from flexing if a force is applied by a sling, bipod or FVG, causing the handguard cap to contact the barrel and deflecting the barrel. Interesting question, indeed...............................................

It would likely take a pretty large force, as the rail system is more rigid that handguards, but theoretically it is possible.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:37:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
No free floated means that the barrel isn't attached to the receiver anwhere else than at the back (at the barrel nut) A Troy is free floated. The rails are clamped onto the barrel nut. The rails do not touch the barrel nor the front sight assy. I shot one tonight. Hoplophile has a very nice one.



Interesting question. My thinking is this: If the Troy does lock into the handguard cap (I should know soon, as I have one coming), what is stopping the rail system from flexing if a force is applied by a sling, bipod or FVG, causing the handguard cap to contact the barrel and deflecting the barrel. Interesting question, indeed...............................................

It would likely take a pretty large force, as the rail system is more rigid that handguards, but theoretically it is possible.




It's attached to the barrel nut, the barrel nut is the toothy thing that screws onto the reciever. I repeat THERE IS NO CONTACT WITH ANYTHING ELSE other than the barrel nut.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:41:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 5:48:57 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
No free floated means that the barrel isn't attached to the receiver anwhere else than at the back (at the barrel nut) A Troy is free floated. The rails are clamped onto the barrel nut. The rails do not touch the barrel nor the front sight assy. I shot one tonight. Hoplophile has a very nice one.



Interesting question. My thinking is this: If the Troy does lock into the handguard cap (I should know soon, as I have one coming), what is stopping the rail system from flexing if a force is applied by a sling, bipod or FVG, causing the handguard cap to contact the barrel and deflecting the barrel. Interesting question, indeed...............................................

It would likely take a pretty large force, as the rail system is more rigid that handguards, but theoretically it is possible.




It's attached to the barrel nut, the barrel nut is the toothy thing that screws onto the reciever. I repeat THERE IS NO CONTACT WITH ANYTHING ELSE other than the barrel nut.





Is it or is it not connected to the handguard cap in the above pic. I don't know, but I will by this weekend. It is known that enough force applied to a FVG attached to a standard set of handguards is enough to deflect a barrel, is it not?? It appears that the lower isn't attached, but the upper sure looks like it is connected to the handguard cap. Looks the same way below.



BUT

In this pic, it is clearly a FF tube:



"the toothy thing that screws onto the receiver" - thanks for that tidbit of info, didn't know that before.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:49:22 PM EST
The MRF's do not contact the handguard cap.

Corey
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:50:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 5:50:42 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By Corey:
The MRF's do not contact the handguard cap.

Corey



Cool, now I know. Why leave it there then? Seems it would rattle around up there a bit.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:52:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:




The one Hoplophile owns is like the one above and it is CLEARLY freefloated. I don't believe the first pic and maybe the 3rd pic is.


Link Posted: 9/30/2004 5:58:43 PM EST
Thanks to you all for the replies and info. So the handguard cap is purely cosmetic?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:00:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 6:00:57 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By tkd-0331:
Thanks to you all for the replies and info. So the handguard cap is purely cosmetic?



Since the Troy MRF can be installed without removing the FSB, it is likely that they left it on to show how it would look if a Dremelsmith didn't take the time to cut it off after installation. So in that application, it is doing nothing, just dead weight to eventually work loose and rattle around.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 6:07:23 PM EST
No the handguard cap is there to, well, hold the "regular" handguards in place. The beauty of the MRF is that it is installed without taking the front sight off. Cut the delta ring off, snap it on without touching the handguard cap, and you have a free floating forend. To take off the handguard cap, you would need to take off the front sight; Thus neglecting the reason or pupose or benefit or beauty of the MRF.

I reckon you could dremmel of the handguard cap just like the delta ring. You'd have to be very steady to not mark/cut the barrel. It's not hurting anything there, so leave it.
Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:42:08 PM EST
The picture below shows that the Troy MRF doesn't touch the handguard cap of my RRA midlength barrel, and also shows that without the cap there would be a large gap between the tube and the FSB.


Link Posted: 10/1/2004 1:43:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
The picture below shows that the Troy MRF doesn't touch the handguard cap of my RRA midlength barrel, and also shows that without the cap there would be a large gap between the tube and the FSB.





Thanks for the clear view of that. It clears up that issue.


Originally Poste By CRS188:

I reckon you could dremmel of the handguard cap just like the delta ring. You'd have to be very steady to not mark/cut the barrel. It's not hurting anything there, so leave it.



I'd guarantee after some use that the handguard cap, left in place will begin to rattle around up there. The only thing holding it there is a little tension from the FSB and the gas tube, both of which don't have a real strong grip on it. If you don't like rattles, cut it off.


Link Posted: 10/1/2004 3:22:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Originally Posted By Hoplophile:


I'd guarantee after some use that the handguard cap, left in place will begin to rattle around up there. The only thing holding it there is a little tension from the FSB and the gas tube, both of which don't have a real strong grip on it. If you don't like rattles, cut it off.




Well, you could be correct. I bought my RAS II out of the first batch they made. That's been what, 2 years now? I've shot that gun at least once a week in that time, and usually 2 to 3 times. My handguard cap hasn't move on my gun yet. I do beleive it not's going to, but it's possible.
Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 4:33:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By CRS188:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Originally Posted By Hoplophile:


I'd guarantee after some use that the handguard cap, left in place will begin to rattle around up there. The only thing holding it there is a little tension from the FSB and the gas tube, both of which don't have a real strong grip on it. If you don't like rattles, cut it off.




Well, you could be correct. I bought my RAS II out of the first batch they made. That's been what, 2 years now? I've shot that gun at least once a week in that time, and usually 2 to 3 times. My handguard cap hasn't move on my gun yet. I do beleive it not's going to, but it's possible.
Thanks.....Chad



Good info. I'll run mine with the handguard cap left on and see how it does. If not, I'll have to cut it off, as this Troy setup is going an an upper with a permanently installed FH, so FSB removal will not be an option.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 4:51:07 AM EST
The hand gaurd cap is protecting the gas tube. Leave it on but remove the sling swivel.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:04:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:
The hand gaurd cap is protecting the gas tube. Leave it on but remove the sling swivel.



There are numerous other FF tubes that don't need the handguard cap to protect the gas tube: KAC, DD, PRI, LaRue, YHM................basically all of them. Removing the sling swivel would remove the temptation of installing a sling there. Installing a sling on the FSB would negate the effects of the FF tube, so I can see that as beneficial, as the sling swivel now is dead weight at the end of the barrel, although it is very light.

Here's an example of an unprotected gas tube with a FF tube, the likes of which see actual combat abuse without problems:

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 5:56:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 5:57:33 AM EST by Forest]
The Troy MRF DOES NOT connect with the handguard cap.

It does end really close to it but there is no connection - on my 20" I have around 1/10"- 1/16" of an inch space between them. The pics posetd by Mongo don't show the right angles to see behind the handguard cap.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 6:02:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
The Troy MRF DOES NOT connect with the handguard cap.



Thanks for the info. Pic was pretty clear above.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:10:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:11:33 AM EST by M4-guy]
The handguard cap is 'pinched' between the front sight base and a shoulder in the barrel. It should be pretty secure. It does serve a small purpose, though: it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:51:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.



That was my thought as well.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:52:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 7:53:13 AM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.



That was my thought as well.



You don't see them on combat weapons with KAC, PRI, DD free float tubes (SPRs, SAM-Rs, RECCEs etc.), so I'm wondering how much of a concern that actually is. You may give some cooling capacity for this "luxury".
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 7:56:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.



That was my thought as well.



You don't see them on combat weapons with KAC, PRI, DD free float tubes (SPRs, SAM-Rs, RECCEs etc.), so I'm wondering how much of a concern that actually is. You may give some cooling capacity for this "luxury".



I don't really think of the SAM/SPR in the same way as I do an M4.

At the end of the day if you don't like it, cut it off. No skin off my back either way. To me you're just going to wind up with this big-ass gap between the end of the rail and the front sight.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:06:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
big-ass gap



Just for reference, this is how "big" the "big-ass gap" would be:

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:35:30 AM EST
Not to stir anything, but on the Troy, the gap will be bigger. See Hop's pic above and imagine it w/o the handguard cap.
I've seen other FF handguards that create this gap as well, but I think it's just so the user has the option of removing the cap or leaving it on. If Troy made that MRF any longer, you would HAVE to remove the cap.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:39:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.



That was my thought as well.



You don't see them on combat weapons with KAC, PRI, DD free float tubes (SPRs, SAM-Rs, RECCEs etc.), so I'm wondering how much of a concern that actually is. You may give some cooling capacity for this "luxury".


You don't see handguard cap on those handguards because they require removing the FSB to install the tube and since you've got it apart there's no reason to put the cap back on there. Plus, most free float tubes are not compatible with the handguard cap. The only way they could work with the cap in place is to either be short enough to not touch the cap or be large enough to fit over the cap, which would be very large.

The Troy handguard is designed to be installed without removing the FSB which means that it needs to leave enough room for the cap. If you're going to make comparisons then you need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. In this case you've got to compare the Troy to other handguards that can be installed without removing the FSB such as the SIR and the RAS II.

Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:43:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By norman74:
big-ass gap



Just for reference, this is how "big" the "big-ass gap" would be:

www.hunt101.com/img/165792.JPG



Is that a Troy?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:51:24 AM EST
No, I'm pretty sure that's a YHM FF. These require removal of the FSB.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:01:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
it helps keep debris out of the handguard, if that's a concern.



That was my thought as well.



You don't see them on combat weapons with KAC, PRI, DD free float tubes (SPRs, SAM-Rs, RECCEs etc.), so I'm wondering how much of a concern that actually is. You may give some cooling capacity for this "luxury".


You don't see handguard cap on those handguards because they require removing the FSB to install the tube and since you've got it apart there's no reason to put the cap back on there. Plus, most free float tubes are not compatible with the handguard cap. The only way they could work with the cap in place is to either be short enough to not touch the cap or be large enough to fit over the cap, which would be very large.

The Troy handguard is designed to be installed without removing the FSB which means that it needs to leave enough room for the cap. If you're going to make comparisons then you need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. In this case you've got to compare the Troy to other handguards that can be installed without removing the FSB such as the SIR and the RAS II.




The KAC rail system on the SPR clone pictured above is short enough for a handguard cap, but it makes no sense to leave it there, like you stated.

I completely understand the design of the Troy rail system, but thanks for the refresher.

Either today or tomorrow, I'll have an MRF-C to compare to my KAC, my four DD and my PRI tubes.

So the Troy allows you to install the system without removing the FSB, but it is still a railed FF system, so how is it not fair to compare it to all other railed FF systems? In all reality, they aren't as different as you make them out to be.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:02:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
No, I'm pretty sure that's a YHM FF. These require removal of the FSB.



It is a YHM, but the pic shows the "big-ass gap" that would result from removing the handguard cap. It was the only pic I had to show that, but it gets the point across.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:10:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
No, I'm pretty sure that's a YHM FF. These require removal of the FSB.



It is a YHM, but the pic shows the "big-ass gap" that would result from removing the handguard cap. It was the only pic I had to show that, but it gets the point across.



Whoops, no. Look again at your pic vs. the pic of the actual product in question.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:19:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
So the Troy allows you to install the system without removing the FSB, but it is still a railed FF system, so how is it not fair to compare it to all other railed FF systems? In all reality, they aren't as different as you make them out to be.

If you're looking at the overall platform then they should all be compared. But the posts I was responding to were specifically about how the handguards interact with the handguard cap and in that context the handguards are very different and should only be compared to similar designs.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:21:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By M4-guy:
No, I'm pretty sure that's a YHM FF. These require removal of the FSB.



It is a YHM, but the pic shows the "big-ass gap" that would result from removing the handguard cap. It was the only pic I had to show that, but it gets the point across.



Whoops, no. Look again at your pic vs. the pic of the actual product in question.



Are you talking about the gap between the FSB and the barrel of the gap between the FSB and the float tube? In either case, who cares? It happens with alot of the other FF rail systems. Look at the gap between the gas block and the tube on the SRP clone pictured above.

Same here:



And here:



And here:



And here:





My point is this: Your concern is completely cosmetic and has no impact on the fuction of either the rail system or the rifle. It is simply a product of being able to install the FF system without removing the FSB alone, nothing more.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:37:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
[who cares?



Evidently you do, since you're on and on and on and on and on about something that, as you point out, is really only a cosmetic issue (whether you remove it or not, it's still just cosmetic). You've obviously made up your mind to cut yours off, and are really only posting at this point to argue for the sake of arguing.

I and others made the mistake of thinking you were asking an honest question. My appologies.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:38:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
[who cares?



Evidently you do, since you're on and on and on and on and on about something that, as you point out, is really only a cosmetic issue (whether you remove it or not, it's still just cosmetic). You've obviously made up your mind to cut yours off, and are really only posting at this point to argue for the sake of arguing.

I and others made the mistake of thinking you were asking an honest question. My appologies.



Apology accepted.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:39:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
[who cares?



Evidently you do, since you're on and on and on and on and on about something that, as you point out, is really only a cosmetic issue (whether you remove it or not, it's still just cosmetic). You've obviously made up your mind to cut yours off, and are really only posting at this point to argue for the sake of arguing.

I and others made the mistake of thinking you were asking an honest question. My appologies.



+1
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:40:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
[who cares?



Evidently you do, since you're on and on and on and on and on about something that, as you point out, is really only a cosmetic issue (whether you remove it or not, it's still just cosmetic). You've obviously made up your mind to cut yours off, and are really only posting at this point to argue for the sake of arguing.

I and others made the mistake of thinking you were asking an honest question. My appologies.



+1



Mine isn't being cut off. The upper is already built - a 11.5"/5.5" unit with a 1/7 barrel to be used for 77gr SMK load development. FSB wasn't removed and handguard cap is installed. Oh, well, I'll just have to live with it.
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