In Mississippi, we can legally purchase suppressors after paying the $200 tax and being approved by the BATF.  My question is can a legally purchased suppressor be placed on a post-ban AR, or must it be a pre-ban?  I thought that I had read somewhere that suppressors were viewed the same as flash hiders, and thus must be only on pre-bans.  Thanks, Mike

pre-ban only, the can acts as a flash-hider because it wipes out the muzzle flash.

That's my reasoning behind the preban lower coming up soon(hopefully) [:D]

postban rifles also cannot have a threaded barrel.

You can get a SWR or Gemtech can, which use the bi-lock mount (the post-ban bi-locks, with no A2 'flash hider' slots in it) on the gun,  --have it permanently attached to be post-ban legal -- and then affix the can to the gun that way.  But no thread-mounting systems, as threads are a no-no on post-ban guns.

swtc

that's great that the bilock might be postban ok but he still cannot mount or use a suppressor legally on a post ban rifle.  the only way to do it is to have a CA single shot lower or preban rifle..or of course an mg.

OR.....


get rid of the pistol grip, and any other banned features.

Not true. You can use a suppressor on a post-ban rifle if there are no threads (like the SWR and GT methods, and also three-lug attachments).

swtc (And, yes, I am aware of the Owen letter that Bardwell has posted on the subject. But it's wrong.)

Swtc, Yes and no. Yes you can have a suppressor on a post ban rifle but not a post ban AR15. The BATF has ruled that it is a flash suppressor. A post ban AR15 is limited to only two pre ban futures and the flash suppressor would make it illegal unless you get rid of one other pre-ban feature.  

Take out the gas tube and it is no longer semiauto.  That is the easiest "evil" feature to get rid of.  Plus it is quieter to the shooter because no action noise.  I am planning a .300 Whisper project single shot with side cocker upper.

Debo

Well here is the law:

[b]a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i)  a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher; [/b]

A simple read of what it says, not what you think it says or wish it said or are afraid it says, can only lead to the following conclusions:

Suppressors are not mentioned as a prohibited feature. Congress has been regulating suppressors for 70 years, and they chose not to include them on the banned list. If they had wanted to ban them on weapons, they would have added them to the list as item (vi), but they did not.

As for threaded barrels, Congress did not outlaw threaded barrels, which they could have done if that is what they wanted, by only including the first 6 words of (iv). But they did not. They only wanted to ban threaded barrels used for flash suppressors, so the said: "threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor". Threaded barrels designed to accommodate muzzle brakes, (sound) suppressors, barrel extensions, etc. are not prohobited by law.

Seems like plain English to me. No ambiguity at all. Draw your own conclusions.

Problem is Sound Suppressors also supress the Flash so they are considered Flash Supressors by the BATF.

The same way the standard Flash Supressors are also considered Grenade launchers because they can launch the NATO standard rifle grenade (even though the US doesn't use them).

not to brag but i purchased a suppressor today!!!  i took pictures of it on my rifle since that's all i'll have for a few months.

pics?!?
c'mon man, you cant say you have one, say you took pics of it and then not show it off!

Some do, some don't. Just like some longer barrels also work as effective flash suppressors.

My point was that the BATF interpretation was not the intent of Congress, and has no foundation in law. Unfortunately, no-one has stepped up to be the legal test case to get it overturned. :-( 367 days to go.

[hijack] no picks yet since i used a normal camera and i'm at the beginning of the roll of fil.[/hijack]

alright, you have 4 days then [:D]

just kidding, but be sure to start a thread and show it off when you get the pics up and ready so I'll see it.

I like suppressors [:D]

Thanks guys!  Sounds like I need to save up for a preban!

YellowLab, Get the process started. It can take quite a while to get BATF approval and besides after the ban you will not need a per-ban.

congrats inferno [;)]

man, i just hope we don't get screwed at the last minute by some feinstein bs

?

Interesting....

NFA classification(s) supercede assault weapon ban rule(s).

If I have an NFA Auto Sear, and drop it into my post ban lower from whomever...the ballistic fairy waves her magic wand and I can then have bayonet lugs, flash supp, threaded barrel, etc.

Same for AOW...Anything you want, but no stock.  Cant even show your lower to a stock, or the fairy gets jealous.

SBR is a little different, since it is still admitting its a rifle, and therefore subject to the "assault weapons/rifle spam".

My long meandering path to the point, Ed Gruberman...is that the NFA classification/control of the Noise Suppressor supercedes the indirect effect of the AWB, as far as the device goes.

The ATF does not consider a duly licensed and registered Noise Suppressor to be a FLASH suppressor.  

My 8" barrel extension on my 7.5 inch upper is a much more effective noise/flash suppressor than any birdcage, but its legal.

Remember, they dont have to make sense...
Ask your local Class III SOT for the exact details that apply to your area.

Respectfully, that is almost laughable.  ALL suppressors suppress flash, that flash is burning propellent which generates gas, which is what suppressors are designed to contain, cool, and delay.  I dare you to show me a single suppressor that does not suppress flash.  Barrels DO NOT suppress flash, it is not a device designed to suppress flash.  It is a rifled bore which the bullet travels down.  No suppressor is rifled or contacts the bullet in terms of guiding it.  No flame, but you have some pretty strange ideas there.  99.9% would not agree with your definitions, and I guarantee you would loose in any court.  A suppressor (aka silencer) suppresses flash, therefore it is defined as a flash suppressor (the most effective flash suppressor there is), that is pretty clear cut, no room for interpretation.  Barrels are not designed to reduce flash, that is a byproduct of the cartridge (the propellant actually).  If they were, ALL barrels would be flash suppressors as powder is burnt from the start of all barrel chambers and lessened relative to barrel length.
A rifled barrel does not get to choose what it is threaded for, as there are flash suppressors that are designed to be attached by means of threads, all threaded barrels are potentially threaded for flash suppressors.

I have to respectfully disagree;

A Semiautomatic assault weapon is defined by the BATF as:
A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has at least 2 of--
   (1) A folding or telescoping stock,
   (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon,
   (3) A bayonet mount,
   (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a
flash suppressor, and
   (5) A grenade launcher;

SOURCE: http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm


You can have any ONE feature. If you take off your pistol grip and add a thumb hanger type grip that is approved by the ATF (there are a couple on the market) you can legally have a threaded barrel/flash suppressor. Most AR owners (myself included) are unwilling to give up the pistol grip, however it is an option.

for the AW ban sunset- if something gets passed at the last minute, or tacked onto a necessary spending bill, we could be hosed again.

So, in other words, postban rifles also cannot have a threaded barrel.     Duh.

Thanks for the quality input there, DR

You missed his point there.

Post ban rifles can indeed have a threaded barrel... if they posess no other banned features.

A postban AR won't be able to have a threaded barrel as long as it has the protruding pistol grip. However, a standard rifle with no protruding grip, such as a 10/22, can most definitly have a threaded barrel.

You are allowed ONE (1) banned feature on a post ban.

Exactly.  This is why an M1A1/M14 can have a flash hider, but no bayonet lug.  Or you could have the bayo lug, and a muzzlebrake instead.  With the Kali born FAB10 AR, with no detachable magazine, you can have EVERYTHING, cause with the detachable mag, it doesn't even qualify as an assault rifle regardless of how many of the bad features it has.  Just remember the rule, it must have a detachable mag and TWO evil features in order to qualify it as a dreaded assault rifle, anything less and you are not affected.

You are misinformed on several points here.  First, no NFA weapon automatically superceeds the '94 AWB.  AOW's are not subject to the AWB because (by statutory definition) they are not handguns, rifles, or shotguns.  The AWB defines "assault" weapons by specific name (Tec-9, AR15, AUG etc.) and also by type (a semiautomatic rifle/pistol/shotgun) with certain features (bayo lug, flash supressor, weight in excess of 50 oz., etc).  As an AOW is neither a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, it is not subject to the AWB.  MG's are also not subject to the AWB because although they can be defined as "rifles", they are not "semiautomatic" as per the statutory definition of an assault rifle as contained in the '94AWB.

With regard to sound supressors, BATF has issued advisory opinions that they ARE indeed considered flash supressors because they DO supress flash.  That said, a sound suprressor on a postban semiautomatic rifle is not legal (unless it does not have a pistol grip or does not accept a detachable mag).

No, i got his "point" just fine, but i never thought anyone would take a grip off of an ar15 so they could have a threaded barrel, i.e.  its of no use to an ar15 owner.    thanks for your input also.

plus you are wrong on your number count for the banned features- you are allowed two (i think, at this stage of the night)  pistol grip and detachable magazine.   so once again thanks for your input.

Machine guns are not rifles, or pistols, they are machine guns, and as such, can have features of either rifles or pistols.    

NFA/FA Colt M4 (14.5) with Warrior Suppressor and Q3131.

http://renegade.tgtech.com/Guns/WarriorFlash.mpg

Notice the large fireball coming out of the end of the suppressor? Still laughing? Probably not as much as I am.



Check my quote. I did not say "designed" I said "effective".
Do I now need to post a video of a 7.5 inch upper vs. a 24 inch upper, all other variables the same? No, I do not think so.



No Flame taken.  I would rather be .1% and right, than part of the 99.9% that is wrong. I can live with that. Join me in the .1% bracket.

Not looking to go to court, win or lose. Will never be a test case. Always follow law and BATF opinions to the letter, regardless of personal opinion. Just talking guns here on AR-15, and sharing real life experiences.



All wrong. Read the law. Here is some help:

[b]iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor.[/b]

Flash suppressors via any attachment method are banned. Threaded barrels are banned if [b]designed to accommodate a flash suppressor[/b]. Threaded barrels designed to accommodate [something other than a flash suppressor] are not banned. If Congress wanted to ban threaded barrels, they would have only put in the first 6 words of item (iv). They intentionally chose not to, and went out of their way to specify flash suppressors only, and only on rifles. Threaded barrels and flash/sound suppressors are legal on pistols (HK/TAC or HK/Mark 23). Again, not looking to violate the law or BATF opinion (which I ALWAYS comply with), just pointing out what the law says.

I found the video with the gas tube melting before the suppressor too,after a C-Mag or so. 50 MB though.

[b]but if your yellow, and you don't have the balls to challenge the courts to something that is as clear as day (which you'll never be challeneged to by a competent attorney) then I'm sorry...[/b]

call me yellow then.  the law is not open to [i]my[/i] interpretation.

if you cannot legally put on a flash hider, or suppressor than your argument for having a threaded barrel is moot.

what are you going to do without a pistol grip?  the safety detent and spring will fall out.  

since this is AR Discussions i'm only considering AR's in this thread.

Here we go again.

For your perusal, and for your information.

Please, read this carefully.

USC 18 Sec 921 Defines an assault weapon as:

(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -

    (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

    (ii)Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

    (iii)Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

    (iv) Colt AR-15;

    (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

    (vi)SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

    (vii)Steyr AUG;

    (viii)INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

    (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

[red](B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - [/red]

   [blue] (i) a folding or telescoping stock;

    (ii)a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

    (iii)a bayonet mount;

    (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

    (v) a grenade launcher; [/blue]

(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

    (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

    (ii)a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

    (iii)a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

    (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

    (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

    (i) a folding or telescoping stock;

    (ii)a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

    (iii)a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

    (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.





I rest my case. You are allowed ONLY one banned feature on a post ban. A detachable mag is not banned, but is included in the definition of na assault weapon.

Time to add fuel to the theoretical debate [soapbox]:

Technically it is possible to have a postban barrel threaded.  The law states threading "designed to accommodate a flash suppressor" is illegal.  [red]Pick an oddball thread which is not used by any manufacturer's flash suppressor and it would be legal by the wording of the law[/red].

The only catch is how to be absolutely sure that no manufacturer, anywhere, uses whichever thread you choose on any product of theirs which could be declared a flash suppressor.  

Pick an odd metric left handed thread, have a postban legal muzzlebreak threaded the same, and screw it on.  You are legal unless and until someone produces a flash suppressor for sale with that same threading.

The endless mental masturbation which goes on concerning the ban is proof positive that it is a bullshit law.  Write your congresscritters and Shrub to voice your irritation.

The fuel will be out when.....



The BATFE shows up in court with a FS that through some miracle (and a tap/die set) fits your threads.

You win a no expense trip to Club Fed.

*But I personally dont know of any barrel police.

You can have a threaded barrel as long as its not designed to accept any type of flash hiding advice.  This is the case with the rifles with threaded front sight bases for AK74 type rifles.  However idf anyone ever cam up with a devise that the AFT deemed to suppress flash (even a little and its their arbitrary decision on this) then you are in instant violation.

You cant put a sound suppressor on a post ban because the ATF has deemed all sound suppressors to diminish flash.  Even if its a tiny amount hey still call it a flash suppressor.  There is not superceeding of the AWB here.  All the suppressor manufactureres have asked the ATF and they all got the same answer.

The threaded barrel thing has been discussed but someone mentioned the permanat brakes.  They cover the threads and to the ATF this is deemed as removing them so  long as you use an approved method for attaching.  Either blind pin or silver solder.  Any other method = threads still exist.

Huh? They can show up right now with a FS that just slips on your non-threaded post-ban if they want. Instant violation.


rxdawg says it best:

[b]The endless mental masturbation which goes on concerning the ban is proof positive that it is a bullshit law. Write your congresscritters and Shrub to voice your irritation. [/b]

My point precisely, as repeated below:



That is the catch:  if ATF can produce a flash suppressor with whatever thread you have on your postban barrel you are screwed.  My original point was assuming a [i]commercially available, for-sale-to-the-general-public[/i] flash suppressor, but a custom one-off job could also qualify if ATF argued it hard enough. I think you might eventually win if the FS in question is a custom piece, but at what cost?  Then again you might not....

Personally I think muzzlebreaks suck and dont have one on any postban AR I own.  YMMV.  But a threaded barrel in and of itself is still not illegal.  Unwise perhaps, but not illegal. [:P]


Edited to finish typing, I really should proofread better...

After reading this i need clarification.

Can you put a silencer on a post ban rifle by using something other than a threaded barrel for attachment?

did the atf rule that a silencer is a flsh suppressor? if so, can someone help me find the ruling.

i want to get a silencer, but need to know if i have to get a pre-ban for it to go on or does the law some how allow for a silencer on a post ban. my class 3 dealer says that he spoke with atf and they said that the silencer was a flash suppressor. he asked them (as a smart ass) if he could sell them as a flash suppressor and not have to transfer them?  they said no. he said they could only have ONE definition per item. so is it a flash suppressor or a sound suppressor? does it matter?

no, you can't have one legally on a postban.

So much disinformation here, its making my head spin.
On my post ban RRA, I removed my grip, put on the Gogogadgets.net vertical grip so my one bad feature is the threaded barrel/suppressor combo. That way I am legal.
And, yes, suppressors are considered flash suppressors....

I can't buy the pre-ban until Feburary, because of funds.  But with all of the BS rules, I want to ask.....Can I go ahead and submit all paperwork for the suppressor now, or do I have to actually own the pre-ban?

they don't give a shit if you don't own a gun to mount it on.  the can is its own entity, independent of the host firearm.

QuietShooter is correct. Get it now. Your in for a long wait anyway.