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Posted: 1/4/2006 1:34:17 PM EDT
Many years ago when I did my tour in the USMC, I qualified as Expert with my M16. At the time I was pretty proud of the accomplishment, but is that even that good compared to the average shooter of today? Many of the guys just going into the military have never even handled or shot a rifle before and some of them still did very well.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:40:08 PM EDT
I believe that it does.
I wish that I could recall the USMC
rifleman's creed. Some thing about closing with
and destroying the enemy. Qualifying Expert
facilitates this greatly.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:40:53 PM EDT
Ditto , yea its' real good . KD (National Match course)
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:41:20 PM EDT
I would imagine that it is still an accomplishment to be very proud of.

I plan on joining the Marine Corps in 2 years. I was just wondering, the people who qualify expert, do they then get tested to see if they would make a good Designated Marksman?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:49:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 1:53:57 PM EDT by lsmlax006]

Originally Posted By TylerM_8:
I would imagine that it is still an accomplishment to be very proud of.

I plan on joining the Marine Corps in 2 years. I was just wondering, the people who qualify expert, do they then get tested to see if they would make a good Designated Marksman?



If you want to know about Marine Corps snipers talk to SIMPLYDYNAMIC, he helped me alot. And depending on if you enlist of go officer will decide if you can be a DM.

Also find out who your local recruiter is and let him know you are interested. They can help you out alot.

If you have any quesitons about the process of enlisting, or going NROTC shoot me a PM. Ill help all that i can.


PJ
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:52:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
I believe that it does.
I wish that I could recall the USMC
rifleman's creed. Some thing about closing with
and destroying the enemy. Qualifying Expert
facilitates this greatly.



This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than the enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit.

My rifle is human, even as I am human, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strengths, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other.

Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy.

PJ
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:52:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:16:02 PM EDT
From my experience it seems that the less time you've spent behind a rifle the better you do in qualifying. No bad habits to break, I guess.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:20:28 PM EDT
It was like that in the army.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:21:09 PM EDT
Shouldn't that be "NOR the smoke we make?"

Just kidding, greatest respect to those Marines.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:52:06 PM EDT
I did active duty in the Marine Corps, in the Navy and just got back from a year in Kuwait with the Army. I carried an M-16 in all three. The USMC rifle course is the best and the only one that teaches you how to actually shoot. The Navy courses I shot were all reduced sized targets at 25 yards. Before we deployed I qualified on a "pop-up" range for the Army. It was way too easy and only out to 300. The army doesnt even teach how to adjust for wind or distance. So yes, when I finally qualifed expert in the Marine Corps, I think it meant something.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:10:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 3:17:34 PM EDT by maggiethecat]
wes15a2, you're thinking of the mission of the Marine Corps rifle squad.

"The Mission of the Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver and to repel the enemies assaults by fire and close combat"

Been 10 years since bootcamp but I still think of it at least once a week, and I wasn't even a grunt.

Now back to topic. Qualified expert 5 times out of 7. Meant a hell of alot to me. still does, partly becasue out of boot camp I wore a pizza box. :(
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:44:40 PM EDT
Crossed rifles beat the hell outta the iron cross or the pizza box. And yes, taking a non-shooting recruit and getting him/her to shoot consistently into a man-sized silouhette at 500m from the prone is an accomplishment for the Corps, the PMI, and the recruit.

And it gives tremendous confidence in one's ability to survive on the battlefield, knowing that you can hit what your aiming at without fancy widgets on your rifle. Iron sights, a serviceable rifle, and ammo, and your ahead of anyone else in the game, except your fellow Marines.

I mean, minus a trained sniper, the average Marine, regardless of MOS is trained and qualified to engage the enemy with iron sights at half a Klick. You own 200 meters more of the battlefield than any other gun toter out there.

That is something to be damned proud of.

BTW, my Expert Badge, the one I wore in Nov. of 1985 on graduation day is pinned to my fathers reloading bench to this day. Pops taught me how to shoot, and to love doing it, so he earned it just as much as I did.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:46:52 PM EDT
I always qualified high expert. I am damn sure that it was a good thing. 10 rounds at 500 yards in the black? C'mon man that kicks ass!!! 4 years in and 4 years qualing expert. I am still damn proud of it and I got out in '94.

Ooooh fucking rah!

I just bought a 20" Bushie and plan to keep it "old school" for the sole reason of nostaligia. I dig iron sights.

Be proud of it brother. I respect you for it.

If you have been in combat, you should be doubly proud. you can have the confidence of a "been there done that" that most paper punchers and tactical game players can only dream about.

Semper Fi.

NQ
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:49:00 PM EDT
You should be damn proud of it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:11:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:51:34 PM EDT
You should be damned proud.

It is an accomplishment.

Just remember- the Marine Corps teaches you to shoot- now you have to learn to fight.

500M known distance range with range flags is little different than the foggy, smokey, dark, cold, cluttered, small and large environment where you can find the enemy.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:57:40 PM EDT
Im former 11B10, also had other chores time to time, one was keeping score.
While they try to earned their badge, most of these guys wasnt much of a shot.
They usely pay score keeper to get Expert,this is no b/s.

I feel old school, may have been differently, but not todays service men & women.

TG
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 4:58:25 PM EDT
First, on a serious note, the Marine Corps does not take people who can't shoot. EVERY rifle badge means your are a Marine Rifleman, and that's something to be proud of. The only bad shooter is the one who can't qualify.

Now for my useless rant!

Your not an expert unless you can qualify at all three levels!

1 time Expert
1 time Marksman
2 time Sharpshooter

And have 16 more trys to go!!!

Anyone who doesn't think I can shoot just go ahead and run around at 500 meters and let me get one round off in your direction... noone has taken me up on the offer to this day... and it prooves to me they know chances are i can hit them with that one round... and it means i don't know any stupid people...

I shoot better when I'm not on the range. It's all in my head, my bad vision, and my high blood pressure... WHo likes pulling pitts???

SEMPER FI!!!
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:09:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:13:50 PM EDT
Expert is a good proficiency level. Become distinguished and you never have to qualify again.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:15:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 5:16:09 PM EDT by az-ar]
Yeah it's something to be proud of, though i didn't think it was too hard (knock on wood, I probably have to re-qual in a couple of months). Now, if you qual expert on the pistol, that is def something to be proud of. Completely different beast the M9 is.

The best part about being an expert is talking shit to your buddies who got the pizza box
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:37:35 PM EDT
Any lefties in the USMC? I understand they force you to switch to righthanded shooting. Anyone with personal experience?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:46:09 PM EDT
"From my experience it seems that the less time you've spent behind a rifle the better you do in qualifying. No bad habits to break, I guess. "

You really see the differance between these greenhorns and real shooters when people stand up and have to take a shot, and when someone has to put down cover fire.

The experienced guys can hit what they are aiming at without bone support and can put down far more accurate and voluminous fire in less time. It makes a huge difference. HUGE. About 20% of Army Infantryman actually know how to shoot- I mean really shoot.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 9:50:28 PM EDT
"Im former 11B10, also had other chores time to time, one was keeping score.
While they try to earned their badge, most of these guys wasnt much of a shot.
They usely pay score keeper to get Expert,this is no b/s.

I feel old school, may have been differently, but not todays service men & women."

I don't know about that Army but the one of today uses electronic scoring and pop-ups on qual ranges and you can't bribe a pop-up target. Not that that changes the fact that it is far too easy to qual well on the Army course.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:04:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Geohans:
Any lefties in the USMC? I understand they force you to switch to righthanded shooting. Anyone with personal experience?




Not true at all.



As for the KD course...I shot high expert all 3 times I qualified. I was even a rifle coach. Am I proud of it, sure, but it only tests a small set of skills. There is much more to being an all-around good shooter.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:18:30 PM EDT
It means something if you are in the Marines. The USMC Rifle KD course is pretty easy and the current Pistol course is a Joke. Military qualification courses are more of a " Confidence " builder than a competition.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:25:50 AM EDT
Of course you should be, I know I am that I did.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:57:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tangeant:
It means something if you are in the Marines. The USMC Rifle KD course is pretty easy



Tell that to all of the Jarheads who are walking around with sharpshooter and marksman badges. If it was so easy, then everyone would be an Expert. If the sun is shining and the wind is calm, then it isn't too bad. You can drop alot of points in a hurry when the wind is blowing and changing and the weather is crap, expecially at 500M.
I would assume that you persoanlly found it easy and that you qualified Expert at least 4 or 5 times with your M16.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:12:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By tangeant:
It means something if you are in the Marines. The USMC Rifle KD course is pretty easy



Tell that to all of the Jarheads who are walking around with sharpshooter and marksman badges. If it was so easy, then everyone would be an Expert. If the sun is shining and the wind is calm, then it isn't too bad. You can drop alot of points in a hurry when the wind is blowing and changing and the weather is crap, expecially at 500M.
I would assume that you persoanlly found it easy and that you qualified Expert at least 4 or 5 times with your M16.



Well..... not every Marine is a " Good Shot ".
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:25:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:58:24 AM EDT
Marines shoot in yards not meters. We are Americans, not "Euro Thrash." MARINES NEVER ADOPTED THE METRIC SYSTEM! Damn right you should be a proud USMC EXPERT--the Army still shoots in those DAMNED meters. Marine snipers shoot in YARDS as well. Take 500 yards x .9144 and you get about 457 meters. Meters suck, America rocks and the USMC is out fucking standing.

Semper
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:09:41 AM EDT
Jarheads rate pretty low on the evolution scale, so I assume expert is not much of a challenge. Of course I never shot that course, a 95 ASVAB will keep you miles away from any grunt type activities.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:19:58 AM EDT
I'm another who is very proud of scoring expert in the USMC. I still remember qualification in boot camp and scored a 237 and that was back in 1986. I scored Expert 4 out of 4 times and was especially proud of wearing the badge. It was very satisfying when a boot LT wearing a pizza box walked up to me during an inspection.

I grew up shooting pistols, rifles, and submachineguns. My Dad was a firearms instructor and we had a range in our back yard. I spent lots of time shooting as a kid and I'm sure it helped me during my time in the Corps.

Dan
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:40:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EHOLUB:
Marines shoot in yards not meters. We are Americans, not "Euro Thrash." MARINES NEVER ADOPTED THE METRIC SYSTEM!



A grid square is in metres. The M16 fires a 5.56mm projectile. The M203 fires a 40mm grenade. Maximum effective ranges for weapons are expresseed in metres. The CUCV spark plug threads are metric.
Don't tell me that my Corps is not smart enough to use the metric system....
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:41:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 3:55:22 AM EDT by Interceptor_Knight]

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Jarheads rate pretty low on the evolution scale, so I assume expert is not much of a challenge. Of course I never shot that course, a 95 ASVAB will keep you miles away from any grunt type activities.



Woulda Coulda Shoulda......Keep yapping squid...... This Jarhead had a 99.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:48:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tangeant:
Well..... not every Marine is a " Good Shot ".



Of course not, but neither are most of the armchair snipershug.gif
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:14:47 AM EDT
Qualifying expert as a Marine means, first, that you were or are a U.S. Marine. That's enough for me.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:24:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Geohans:
Any lefties in the USMC? I understand they force you to switch to righthanded shooting. Anyone with personal experience?



Nope. They let me shoot left handed. Due to an over-seas deployment, I only went to the range 5 times instead of six. Still, that little bar on my Expert badge still says "5th Award". As much of an accomplishment as that is, I do not think this can be said to be an accurate measure of exactly how good a "sniper" someone would be.

There is just so much more to it than being able to hit a stationary target at known ranges. Things, that quite frankly, I'm finding out I need to work on.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:00:30 AM EDT
I'm an ol' Army Airborne Infantry Sergeant, I have been a Fire team leader, Weapons Squad leader, and at times served as a Platoon Sergeant. Spent one tour at Fort Leonardwood Missouri as a Rifle Instructor. I admire any true Riflemen, regardless of what branch they served in. While it is probably true that the USMC Rifle course is more intensive than the Army's, it is still up to the regular unit that the new private is sent to hone that new skill to a fine edge. That means plenty of range time and keeping the mind set of being a rifleman. It's up to the units NCO's to make sure their men can shoot when the fighting starts. Basic Training is just that, and in the Army for Rifle training it is called Basic Rifle Marksmanship or just BRM, further instruction will occur after that.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:14:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Jarheads rate pretty low on the evolution scale, so I assume expert is not much of a challenge. Of course I never shot that course, a 95 ASVAB will keep you miles away from any grunt type activities.



This coming from a squid. I shot expert, I would be willing to bet my house I could out shoot you and your 95 asvab.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:31:47 AM EDT
I had really high ASVABs AND I shot expert with the M16 in the Air Force. ASVABs do NOT decide where you will be used, only what jobs you're qualified for. I know people in the Air Force who were qualified for really cushy jobs but went for Security Forces because they wanted that kind of life. The same is true of all the armed forces.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:58:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By az-ar:
Yeah it's something to be proud of, though i didn't think it was too hard (knock on wood, I probably have to re-qual in a couple of months). Now, if you qual expert on the pistol, that is def something to be proud of. Completely different beast the M9 is.

The best part about being an expert is talking shit to your buddies who got the pizza box



I got a 72hr liberty for High shooter of my plt. w/ 1911A1 . I had a .45 as a 2531 (Radioman)and an M-16 as a rifle range coach .
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:13:16 AM EDT
I thought I'd just comment on the stereotypes found with people in the infantry. Many people joke about it and I do find it funny too. But I thought I'd share my perspective on it. I was in the infantry (line company) in the USMC and two of my friends had genius IQs. One of those guys enlisted for guaranteed infantry (I was guaranteed infantry too). I can't remember what I scored on the ASVAB, but I went to school after my enlistment and graduated Magna Cum Laude from a California State University. I've known absolute dumbasses in the Corps, that perpetuate the stereotype, and I've known extremely intelligent people. You'll find all kinds of people humping a pack. In my case, I would not have joined the military if I could not have been in the infantry as I wanted to shoot weapons and blow stuff up.

Dan
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:14:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:24:01 AM EDT by Rocklock]
I saw plenty of duty pulling butts . In my experiance , there was an occasional "M-1 pencel" , where , if a guy was 1 point away from the next higher rating , lick and stick the bullet hole 1/2 inch from a better scoring ring and punch a new one 1/2 inch in to at least cut the ring .

BUT NOBODY I ever heard of did it for money . And that would have been a major issue if I'd heard of it . If you've got UNK who's put in the extra time required of UNKs , and was really trying . Well , personaly I didnt have a problem w/ fudging a point so he could at least wear a toilet seat .

You'd have to know the Corps and how much qualifiying means to a Marine . AND how bad they can be treated if they dont . I had guys damn near in tears over it .

Also because short of a hurricain you shoot Qualday . Ive seen some bad crass winds and rain .......You also have a PreQualday score that can be used .

ETA I'm left handed theres no problem except where you end up on the range will get you some hot brass down your neck in Prone ! also in the 70's there were no left handed Shooting jackets or gloves .... turned the righties gloves inside out ! In boot camp I had 30 secs 29 , 28 , 27 , 26 , ... like tryin to invert a figgin baseball mit ...but at zero "LOCKIT UPPP!!!! it was inside out .

I loved pulling butts . I just like hearing the hits "TICK"
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:28:08 AM EDT
I qualified five times in seven years in the Marine Corps. First two times it was pizzabox, then the last three Expert, the last time in a driving rain at Quantico, which was a real feat IMHO.

Yeah, I'm proud of it, damn proud. My uniforms may be folded up somewhere, but my expert badge, with the "3rd award" bar is tacked on my bulletin board in my computer room.

Semper fi!
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:39:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 7:43:58 AM EDT by 80sgyrene]
EHOLUB- Edson's range was in meters. Scoring was adjusted.

ETA I'm left handed theres no problem except where you end up on the range will get you some hot brass down your neck in Prone ! also in the 70's there were no left handed Shooting jackets or gloves .... turned the righties gloves inside out ! In boot camp I had 30 secs 29 , 28 , 27 , 26 , ... like tryin to invert a figgin baseball mit ...but at zero "LOCKIT UPPP!!!! it was inside out .

I loved pulling butts . I just like hearing the hits "TICK"-Rocklock

Did you guys get jackets and gloves in boot. I went thru in 84, we weren't issued either. I qualified 4 times and never used a jacket or glove. Didn't see many either.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:56:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 80sgyrene:
EHOLUB- Edson's range was in meters. Scoring was adjusted.

Did you guys get jackets and gloves in boot. I went thru in 84, we weren't issued either. I qualified 4 times and never used a jacket or glove. Didn't see many either.



I thought that was the case with Edson Range, but I couldn't remember for sure. We were issued Jackets in '90 but no gloves. I never saw a pair of gloves at the range while I was in.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:15:14 AM EDT
Yep jackets and gloves . And the friggin sling so tight your arm was numb in 2 mins .

As I understand it I went to Parris Island the first year M-16's were issed to recruits . The Drill Instructors ( still can't bring myself to say "DI") didnt like them the PMI didnt like them , and there is no doubt in my mind we were touquing the shit out of those A1's unnessaraly . Alot of stuff was left over from M14 days IMO

I remember the course in meters .
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:23:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Jarheads rate pretty low on the evolution scale, so I assume expert is not much of a challenge. Of course I never shot that course, a 95 ASVAB will keep you miles away from any grunt type activities.



Say no more !


And thats a good thing for the Corps . You were a nonhacker right , wanna be right ?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:28:05 AM EDT
My nephew scored expert when he was a boot (don't know if he kept it up). His parents are liberals, wouldn't even allow toy guns in the house. But you should have heard them crowing about his score....
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