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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:02:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 8:09:08 AM EDT by AMOS]
Sometime back I saw a magazine test on an AR-15 clone. They tested it with some LEO Mil Spec 20 rd mags that were slighlty curved. They looked like 30 rounders that were shortened. While looking in the Shotgun News today, I came across an ad for niw 20 rd pre ban black teflon mil spec magazines. The picture shows the magazine to be curved. I was wondering if anybody had purchased and used these mags? Now for the bad part, the vendor selling these mags is R GUNZ. I always enjoyed reading his responses when people posted negative things about his company. I guess the first thing that comes to my mind, maybe these are post ban mags with and extra heavy coating of teflon paint to cover up any date codes ect. I remember several years ago people complaining about the sloppy teflon coating on the milspec 30 rounders he was selling. Just wondering if anybody any info on these mags. Thanks Amos
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 11:25:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 4:44:12 AM EDT by Slash]
IBTL
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:48:24 PM EDT
Slash, What are you like 14 years old or something? Don't you think its time to grow up? Take a little advice- "It is best to keep your mouth shut and be presumed ignorant rather than to open it and remove all doubt."
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:35:23 PM EDT
I was just wanting to know if anyone had bought any of these mags. Don't ever remember seeing these mags before the ban. The article I saw stated that the MAGS were LEO only. I guess I need to get a book on internet abbreviations as I do not know what IBTL means. Maybe "I bet there leagal"? My point is that I have not seen anyone offer the curve 20 round mil spec mags besides RGUNZS. I have also noticed that RGUNZS has been selling a lot of DPMS Teflon 30 rounders for a long time-unlimited supply while all other companies are sold out. I have also notice post here about the 30 rounders they sell. I believe the only complaint anyone had about there magazines were the sloppy finish on the mag bodies. {Of course people had other complaints about RGUNZS} Amos
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:29:29 AM EDT
Due to my previous bad experience and the fact that the owner of RGUNS is a convicted felon, I choose not to do business with them. MANY others here have been displeased as well. I suggest that you do a search on this site for RGUNS before you buy anything from them. XM177 can call names all day long and it won't change the fact that RGUNS has a horrible track record. Some people have received their orders in a timely fashion and been happy with the product. Many folks have waited for weeks/months to receive their orders. Some never get their merchandise at all. Many have been subjected to verbal abuse, threats, and overall appalling customer service when calling to check on their orders.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:49:38 PM EDT
I bought several of the black teflon DPMS curved 20 rounders and the 30 rounders. I love'em. They run great, the finish is very tough and some think they are some of the best made USGIs available. And I bought them from RGUNS. The guy at RGUNS is just kind of short with people on the phone(read no people skills). I would buy from them again. Just keep it simple on the phone, ASK if they are in stock and place your order.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:39:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4bangr: I bought several of the black teflon DPMS curved 20 rounders and the 30 rounders. I love'em. They run great, the finish is very tough and some think they are some of the best made USGIs available. And I bought them from RGUNS.
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As long as we all understand the origin of RGUNZ mags are somewhat fuzzy- not necessarily illegal, but fuzzy. The 30's certainly are not to be confused with the "true" DPMS pre-ban teflon coated ones. The 20's certainly not the ultra rare LaBelle "just-out-the-door-before-the-ban" jobs. As to their quality, aside from an occasional complaint about "runs" in the teflon coating the word seems to be they do indeed function reliably.
Originally Posted By M4bangr: The guy at RGUNS is just kind of short with people on the phone(read no people skills). I would buy from them again. Just keep it simple on the phone, ASK if they are in stock and place your order.
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This is personal taste. I for one reward businesses and sellers that manage the almost [sarcasm on] impossible task [sarcasm off] of having a sound reputation. In general with anybody I take my business elsewhere when merchandise or services have been mis-represented, or I have been mistreated. At least for me if I am the one spending the scratch and somebody has to be walking on eggshells it certainly is NOT going to be me! To each his own. I have indeed purchased from RGUNZ before, way before this whole fiasco started. While I did not purchase mags I noticed a general "edginess", but everything was smooth. I appreciate the sharing of experiences by other members, as well the ability to read RGUNZ own feelings as posted here in the past. Based upon all this info the track record is crystal clear to me and I choose to patronize them no longer. GoGo
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:47:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoGo: As long as we all understand the origin of RGUNZ mags are somewhat fuzzy- not necessarily illegal, but fuzzy. The 30's certainly are not to be confused with the "true" DPMS pre-ban teflon coated ones. The 20's certainly not the ultra rare LaBelle "just-out-the-door-before-the-ban" jobs. GoGo
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Please Expand on "fuzzy" What's their origin if not, ilegal, and not the "true" Labelles?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:54:19 PM EDT
True pre-ban DPMS teflon coated 30 round USGI magazines had: 1) No runs I have ever seen 2) Floor plates with the words "Defense Procurement Manufacturing Services" on them only. The mags discussed here have the DPMS "panther head logo" on them which is currently avaliable from DPMS. From what I have heard from many sources is that the panther head floor plates were not made before the ban. 3) Clear USGI sealed bags. The black ones have NSN number and about one or two other lines of text, while the gray ones have USGI LaBelle packaging VERBATIM- just as if they were LaBelle's.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:07:13 PM EDT
I don't have any exerience, good or bad, with RGUNS, but I do have some with "teflon" coated mags. Many of the mags (but I'm not going to say all) are post-ban LEO mags that some enterprising fellows pick up for about 12-14 dollars, quite legally, and then coats with some material...sometimes teflon, sometimes some other spray-on coating. They put it on just thick enough to coat the mag and fill in the LEO stamping, then sell the same mags (with about an extra $2 worth of effort and materials) for $35-$55 as pre-ban mags. Again, I'm not saying that anyone here or in question is doing this, but there are people out there who are. Sluggo
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:44:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 3:48:36 PM EDT by SULACO2]
Originally Posted By Troy: There's speculation that LaBelle didn't mark mags *meant for export*, and that some of those might have been re-imported. Yes, they did make mags with blank floorplates, and DPMS was selling some of those 20's right around the ban. -Troy
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So we are questioning their authenticity as DPMS/LaBelles, but not their legallity? Other than the "collectability" issue of having DPMS mags, can these be discounted as LaBelles also? GoGo, you have a ton of info, and I'm not questioning your facts, I just want more of them. I've seen Rguns' mags and questioned their "virility" myself,, but wnat to get to the bottom. Not as many "Drips" but spots, that might be "strategically", shall we say, located. Blank floorplates. How would one concretely eliminate these as "pre's" w/o sanding off the finish, anyone ever hear of this packaging described above? If exported then, "re-imported" wouldn't they be 100% as far every other aspect of "good" mags?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 4:35:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SULACO2: So we are questioning their authenticity as DPMS/LaBelles, but not their legality?
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Correct, mostly.
Originally Posted By SULACO2: Other than the "collectability" issue of having DPMS mags, can these be discounted as LaBelles also?
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IMHO I believe we will never know for sure, as USGI Labelle mag bodies are the same as all the others. One could duplicate the anodizing (if the color was unique to Labelle) rather easily and cheap if they were doing big batch and wanted to go that far with such a hypothetical illusion. I certainly can be accused of being a collector. This "tarnishes" my views when it come to purchasing for pure practicality.
GoGo, you have a ton of info, and I'm not questioning your facts, I just want more of them.
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Thank you for the compliment! I wish someone had helped me the very first time I purchased used Orlite mags *pre-ban* and everything for the great value of $35 each! [:O] I have learned much from this site, and its members. I hope I can share what I have learned and continue to learn more.
I've seen Rguns' mags and questioned their "virility" myself,, but wnat to get to the bottom. Not as many "Drips" but spots, that might be "strategically", shall we say, located. Blank floorplates. How would one concretely eliminate these as "pre's" w/o sanding off the finish, anyone ever hear of this packaging described above? If exported then, "re-imported" wouldn't they be 100% as far every other aspect of "good" mags?
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My personal policy is to err on the side of caution in legal matters. I would find it interesting if someone got a hold of one and carefully stripped it to the anodizing to see what's under the Teflon. It may shed some light. IIRC, an "honestly" unmarked mag must be considered pre-ban, and therefore legal. I never personally want to test ANY gray area. GoGo
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 4:57:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AMOS: ...I guess the first thing that comes to my mind, maybe these are post ban mags with and extra heavy coating of teflon paint to cover up any date codes ect. I remember several years ago people complaining about the sloppy teflon coating on the milspec 30 rounders he was selling... Thanks Amos
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Originally Posted By AMOS: Don't ever remember seeing these mags before the ban... My point is that I have not seen anyone offer the curve 20 round mil spec mags besides RGUNZS. I have also noticed that RGUNZS has been selling a lot of DPMS Teflon 30 rounders for a long time-unlimited supply while all other companies are sold out. I have also notice post here about the 30 rounders they sell. I believe the only complaint anyone had about there magazines were the sloppy finish on the mag bodies. Amos
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Originally Posted By GoGo: As long as we all understand the origin of RGUNZ mags are somewhat fuzzy- not necessarily illegal, but fuzzy. The 30's certainly are not to be confused with the "true" DPMS pre-ban teflon coated ones. The 20's certainly not the ultra rare LaBelle "just-out-the-door-before-the-ban" jobs. GoGo
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Originally Posted By sluggo: I don't have any exerience, good or bad, with RGUNS, but I do have some with "teflon" coated mags. Many of the mags (but I'm not going to say all) are post-ban LEO mags that some enterprising fellows pick up for about 12-14 dollars, quite legally, and then coats with some material...sometimes teflon, sometimes some other spray-on coating. They put it on just thick enough to coat the mag and fill in the LEO stamping, then sell the same mags (with about an extra $2 worth of effort and materials) for $35-$55 as pre-ban mags. Again, I'm not saying that anyone here or in question is doing this, but there are people out there who are. Sluggo
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Originally Posted By SULACO2: ...I've seen Rguns' mags and questioned their "virility" myself,, but wnat to get to the bottom. Not as many "Drips" but spots, that might be "strategically", shall we say, located. Blank floorplates.
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Originally Posted By BoB-O: ... The price is right (almost too good), I'm just wondering on the quality. I wrote to RGUNS and they indicated that the mags were LaBelle, but the ad doesn't state that, even though the same page calls out LaBelle on some moly mags... BoB
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hhmmm??? [:o] nuff said?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 10:15:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 10:17:02 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
I saw that ad too, and I challeneg R-guns to provide me with: The mil-spec # for teflon coated mags The mil-spec # for curved 20 rounders The mil-spec # for a 20 rounder with green follower As well as the text of the spec. I will be generous and even accept non-us military specs, and even contracts for these mags from other governments or requests for bids for these. If he doesn't have that, he has absolutley no reason, proof, or fact to back up his claim of mil-spec and is simply calling anythng he wants milspec.I other words, he is lieing. I challenged him to give me a mil-spec for teflon coating on 30rd mags soem time ago and never got an real response, just "some militaries use them" with no facts to back up taht statement. Come on R-guns, if you call these milspec do you have the facts to back that up?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:38:27 PM EDT
Let me ask another question or two. Are any other suppliers selling the pre-ban 20 round curve milspec mag? If not, kind of makes me thinks RUNGUNZS is special. The main reason for my post to see if anyone had bought some of these mags, and maybe if they another source to by them from. I guess I want be buying any from Rgunzs because they might be suspect. AMOS
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:40:15 PM EDT
Hey guys, FYI, R-Guns is off of route 31 which happens to be about 4 minutes from my house. I have been to their storefront time and time again, and have purchased alot from them over the years. The guys in there are not dickheads. Far from it. Very nice over the phone, very nice in person and they know their shit. I dont know what people's problem is with them, other than completly stupid BS problems that got blown out of proportion. I'm not some troll from R-Guns either. I am fairly well known with the IL AR15.com'ers and have attended many shoots. All I can speak about is my own personal experience. R-guns has handled countless transfers for me, gotten me parts, supplied guns and ammo to me, and I have nothing but great things to say about them. If you have a question about their product and need someone to go check it out in person, I'd be more than willing to take a 4 minute drive and see it for myself. As for their large supply of the teflon mags, well shit. Go to their store and ask to see the boxes yourself. Also, the mags look incredible. I have quite a few of them, and they are immaculate. They always have a few laying out in their display cases. I really dont believe the owner of R guns is a felon. How the hell would he have an FFL then? Either way, I dont care. They have yet to let me down on any level.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:52:47 PM EDT
Also, in terms of people skills, yes. There is one guy the who seems to be rather short answering questions. No BS, he does what you ask and thats its. Not sure which one it is. There is another who usually answers the phone who is very nice and will answer everything you need plus some. It really depends who picks up. But in person, everyone who works their is very kind and very easy to converse with. I've transfered an HK USP, imbel FAL, and a romanian AK through them, without any questions. They even carry two of the three guns I purchased without asking any questions, or charging me more like the other local gunshops in IL do. It may seem like I'm sticking my neck out for them, and I am. In terms of all the gun shops in northern IL, they are the nicest group of guys, right up there with the folks who work at The Gun Shop in plainfield, and Maxon's in des-plains, and Kreb's in Wauconda. I guess it makes sense, a few guys who work at Maxon's also work at Kreb's. If you have any questions about their stuff, questions about whether they truely have stuff in stock, questions about condition of a product, let me know. I'll personally check it out for you. Where I live, there aren't very many dealers who stock what they stock, especially at the prices they have them. I'd hate to see them suffer over some internet BS, and yes, I will go out of my way to help them out if thats what it takes. Just IM me if you really must know about a product. If they will let me, I will even take my digi-cam in.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 1:06:03 PM EDT by Slash]
[b][size=3]GUN DEALER GUILTY OF IMPERSONATING COPS[/b][/size=3] [i]Chicago Tribune[/i]; Chicago, Ill.; Oct 17, 1997; Jerry Crimmins. [red][b]A gun dealer who owns R Guns, 140 N. Western Ave., Carpentersville, pleaded guilty in Kane County Circuit Court this week to impersonating a police officer, said Jerry Singer, a spokesman for the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The charge is a felony and the gun dealer, Roger Lee Krahl, will lose his federal firearms license, said Singer. Judge James Doyle sentenced him to 18 months' probation, said Singer. Singer said Krahl, 33, of Algonquin, used letterheads from more than a dozen police departments to make it seem he was a police officer when he placed orders for assault weapons from manufacturers. Krahl used the letterheads to buy more than 100 assault weapons and accessories.[/red][/b] [i]Copyright Chicago Tribune Co. Oct 17, 1997[/i] Edited to add: This is not some 'Internet BS' and I am not 'blowing anything out of proprotion'. This is public record. Whether you choose to ignore it and do business with a felon is your decision, but you should have all the facts.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 1:53:00 PM EDT
So how do people justify calling some AR15's mil-spec? Anyways, If you guys really want, I can get a magazine from R-guns and sand it down to see what I find. I dont have any special chemicals to strip the stuff, but I dont mind taking one of them and sanding down teh finish to see if there is anything underneath ID'ing them as LEO. Anyone want to make donations? :-) Seriously though, I've questioned the mags too. I could really care less, but I'd do it. I have never seen an LEO AR magazine, so if someone told me the location of the markings, I'd sand it down and see what the body says. IF the mags were BS though, it wouldnt be that hard to get replacement mag bodies, a bunch of springs, green followers and some baseplates. How could someone tell?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 1:54:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 2:00:53 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Well, that I did not see, and the internet BS I was referring to was the stuff on this board about R-guns scamming people and running away with money, etc. Well, I do know that they aren't hiding. I've been to their store many many times. Anyhow... R-guns is still in business, and they still have an FFL. So if that was true, wouldn't they be out of business? To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:15:12 PM EDT
Slash, what does IBTL mean? That news paper article seems to do it for me! I was never planning on buying from them anyway, just because of Roger's stupid arse post over on the EE. I just wished the Judge would have ordered Roger to complete his GED in the 18 months probation. I guess the business and FFL must have be changed over to someone else. Thanks SLASH for throwing down the trump card.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:22:13 PM EDT
As I understand it, he transferred the FFL to his father. I don't know his motivations, but I think it shows what kind of character we are speaking of here. It is my belief that a law-abiding person doesn't just wake up one day and decide to go commit a felony. Ususally its a pattern of behavior. I'd be very careful dealing with someone with a track record like this. I refuse to involve myself with so-called 'gray market' firearms transactions. If those mags are indeed illegal, someday this SOB will be caught and prosecuted (again). When the ATF starts going through the customer list and shipping records, I don't want my name to be there. I'd rather buy mags of known pedigree than risk losing my RKBA because I bought some cheap mags. It's just not worth it to me.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:33:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 2:37:19 PM EDT by AMOS]
Originally Posted By Marksman14: To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
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Well it seems they might be still purchasing LEO products and then selling them with modified finish. Marksman 14, if you don't mind, the next time you go by there, check out the finish on the curved 20 round milspec mags. No doubt ownership of the business had to change hands after the conviction and a new ffl had to be issued. I remember the article in the gun magazine talking about what a shame that the 20 round curved magazines were only available to LEO, as they were only manufactured after the ban. Come on Slash, what does "IBTL" mean? AMOS
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 4:04:50 PM EDT
Another thing that is not "internet bs" (where have I seen that term used before?) or being blown out of proportion is the fact that Rguns posted the name, adress, phone number [red] and CREDIT CARD NUMBER[/red] of a dissatisfied customer on the interenet. No BS, I saw the post. Would you trust your CC info with someone who had done that?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 4:34:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AMOS:
Originally Posted By Marksman14: To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
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Well it seems they might be still purchasing LEO products and then selling them with modified finish. Marksman 14, if you don't mind, the next time you go by there, check out the finish on the curved 20 round milspec mags. No doubt ownership of the business had to change hands after the conviction and a new ffl had to be issued. I remember the article in the gun magazine talking about what a shame that the 20 round curved magazines were only available to LEO, as they were only manufactured after the ban. Come on Slash, what does "IBTL" mean? AMOS
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IBTL = In befor the lock, of a thread.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 7:17:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 7:37:22 PM EDT by XM777]
To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
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My sediments exactly. FFLs can purchase all of the LEO Weapons they please, nothing to impersonate. But then some Morons are of the mentality "Its got to be right if the liberal newpaper says so" [noclue]
I refuse to involve myself with so-called 'gray market' firearms transactions. If those mags are indeed illegal, someday this SOB will be caught and prosecuted (again). When the ATF starts going through the customer list and shipping records, I don't want my name to be there. I'd rather buy mags of known pedigree than risk losing my RKBA because I bought some cheap mags. It's just not worth it to me.
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Slash, on every R-GUNS thread that you have trolled you have been smacked down and made to look like a fool. Are you really that stupid or to you just enjoy looking like an ass?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 7:37:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XM777:
To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
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My sediments exactly. FFLs can purchase all of the LEO Weapons they please. But then some Morons are of the mentality "Its got to be right if the liberal newpaper says so" [noclue]
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Well, even if it was a liberal newspaper the fact that he plead guilty kinda confirms it.....
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 7:48:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I saw that ad too, and I challeneg R-guns to provide me with: The mil-spec # for teflon coated mags The mil-spec # for curved 20 rounders The mil-spec # for a 20 rounder with green follower As well as the text of the spec. I will be generous and even accept non-us military specs, and even contracts for these mags from other governments or requests for bids for these. If he doesn't have that, he has absolutley no reason, proof, or fact to back up his claim of mil-spec and is simply calling anythng he wants milspec.I other words, he is lieing. I challenged him to give me a mil-spec for teflon coating on 30rd mags soem time ago and never got an real response, just "some militaries use them" with no facts to back up taht statement. Come on R-guns, if you call these milspec do you have the facts to back that up?
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A board Dealer, CMMG is selling Teflon coated magazine bodies made by DPMS and claiming that they are Mil-Spec-
We have been working on this deal for over 17 months and we are finally receiving our first shipment of new replacement per ban 30 round AR15/M16 magazine bodies tomorrow (7/2). These are teflon coated DPMS bodies, made to mil spec. These are for replacement of damaged bodies ONLY, so make sure and keep your old mag bodies. It is illegal to assemble these into new magazines. As of now we will not ship to states where hi capacity magazines are prohibited.
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[url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=24&t=171982[/url] Perhaps if you offer him the same challenge, and call him a Liar, they maybe he can shed some light on the matter. What's fair is fair, right?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:04:58 PM EDT
Went over and asked. I was more polite because it will be the first time I asked unlike with Rguns who basicly refused to provide any documentation. However he words his add a little differently since he says the bodies were made to mil-spec not that they are now that they are coated. However the teflon coating is only one part of what Rguns is claiming since he claims a curved body, green follower teflon coated mag is mil-spec.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:37:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 8:45:05 PM EDT by XM777]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I saw that ad too, and I challeneg R-guns to provide me with: [red]The mil-spec # for teflon coated mags[/red] As well as the text of the spec. I will be generous and even accept non-us military specs, and even contracts for these mags from other governments or requests for bids for these. If he doesn't have that, he has absolutley no reason, proof, or fact to back up his claim of mil-spec and is simply calling anythng he wants milspec.I other words, he is lieing. I challenged him to give me a mil-spec for teflon coating on 30rd mags soem time ago and never got an real response, just "some militaries use them" with no facts to back up taht statement. Come on R-guns, if you call these milspec do you have the facts to back that up?
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Well, I can answer this one for your myself. The teflon coated HK SA80/A2 magazine is mil-spec for the British Military and I have posted pictures here to prove it- [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=148623[/url] Do R-GUNS claim that the 20rd Teflons are Mil-Spec? If so where? I have checked his current web page and a cached copy from 12/02 and nowhere do I see the mil-spec claim. Am I missing something?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 5:04:21 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
OK the brits are buying teflon coated mags. Next question is what are the specs and does the coatings on rguns mags meet that spec. Of course, that is also a steel mag as opposed to the aluminum ones rguns is pushing. I will give them the looooonnggg benefit of a doubt and be very liberal with what that a mil spec covers and let them pass selling teflon coated aluminum mags as mil spec when the only one ever seen was a completely different model with a steel body. Only because I know they will never show me a mil-spec for teflon coated aluminum mags. But even so that is still a loooong stretch to say because HK coats their steel mag bodies I can call my coated aluminum one mil-spec. A very loooong and weak stretch. Kind of like saying the green paint on chevy truck is mil-spec because the government buys Hummvees with green paint. BTW, has HK actually sold these to any military yet or are they just being "marketed" to potential military customers? I still defy them to show me a mil spec for a curved 20 rounder with a green follower.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:52:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 4:59:58 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Originally Posted By XM777: Do R-GUNS claim that the 20rd Teflons are Mil-Spec? If so where? I have checked his current web page and a cached copy from 12/02 and nowhere do I see the mil-spec claim. Am I missing something?
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Shotgun news, Volume 57 Issue 16 June 16 2003 just picked up in Wal-mart this week. Page 59, large bold letters:
[center] NEW 20RD BLACK TEFLON MILITARY SPEC PRE BAN IN SEALED PLASTIC WRAPPER AR15/M16 GREEN FOLLOWER $25.00
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[/CENTER] And the pic clearly shows a curved 20rd mag of the style that was univeraly believed to be post ban only until Rguns somehow managed to find a secret stash that nobody ever knew existed after 10 years.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:11:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 6:03:14 AM EDT by Slash]
Originally Posted By XM777: My [red][b]sediments[/red][/b] exactly.
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\Sed"i*ment\, n. [F. s['e]diment, L. sedimentum a settling, fr. sedere to sit, to settle.] 1. The matter which subsides to the bottom, from water or any other liquid; settlings; lees; dregs.
FFLs can purchase all of the LEO Weapons they please, nothing to impersonate.
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And yet he still plead guilty .... Hmmm, I wonder why. Maybe an ill conceived public-relations stunt?
But then some Morons are of the mentality "Its got to be right if the liberal newpaper says so"
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Typical XM777 response, when faced with damning evidence, throw out an insult. If anyone else doesn't feel that the Chicago Tribune is a reliable source, feel free to contact the ATF field office in Downers Grove, Illinois, the Carpentersville, Illinois PD or the Illinois Department of Corrections. But only if you are ready to face the facts.
Slash, on every R-GUNS thread that you have trolled you have been smacked down and made to look like a fool.
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Who is the troll? I haven't attacked or provoked you. I have only posted my views on RGUNS in response to AMOS's inquiry. I defy you to show that anything I have posted is untrue. I am only posting facts, as anyone doing a quick search could verify. You have never refuted anything that I have posted. Your responses are emotional, but do you have the facts to back them up?
Are you really that stupid or to you just enjoy looking like an ass?
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More name-calling. How impressive.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 5:14:41 AM EDT
Right Slash, Your juvenile "IBTL" and "Screw RGUNS" posts are like something from a Jr. High School Computer Literacy class. Really intelligent and add much to the conversation. What's next on the agenda? "Me Too!" posts? Seriously dude, Grow up.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 6:13:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By XM777: Right Slash, Your juvenile "IBTL" and "Screw RGUNS" posts are like something from a Jr. High School Computer Literacy class. Really intelligent and add much to the conversation. What's next on the agenda? "Me Too!" posts? Seriously dude, Grow up.
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It is a real shame the search function only goes back 6 months now, I would love to show you some of Rogers (the owner of Rguns) old posts. If you want to see some juvenile behavior that wuld be the place to look. The worst spelling and grammar I have seen here (I think he must get someone else to edit his posts for him now), constant insults, always infering people were homosexuals, and he loved to send real short emails that basicly said "f*ck you" whenever soemone psoted something negative. In fact, for a while his username was KMA, and he openly admitted it stood for Kiss My Ass bcause thats how he felt about his potential customer base!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:40:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 7:50:16 AM EDT by XM777]
Garand_Shooter, I have seen most of the posts in the past by RGUNS and while I do believe that some of them were quite unprofessional, I also believe that a lot it was provoked by trolls like Slash. If RGUNS was such a thief as some profess, why would he "put his money where his mouth is" and pay for Dealer Status on this board as soon that option became available? It is just a shame that trolls like Slash drove him away. Just what the board needs, less sponsorship. As far as my experience with RGUNS, at last count I had placed 70+ orders over the past 14 years to a tune of $15,000+ dollars. Each and every order was perfect in every respect and I have absolutely no complaints. That is more than I can say for some of the Board Dealers here I have dealt with. "United we Stand, Divided we Fall". If those like Slash continue their venom spewing and dividing of us board members and gun owners rather than focusing on the issues at hand, soon we are all "Going to be on the Outside Looking In". And to you Slash, I truly believe that if you would utilize the time you spend bashing RGUNs on this board writing your Senators and Congressmen expressing your feelings about the AWB Sunset instead, it would be much more beneficial to us all.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 11:04:09 AM EDT
Take a look at this thread: [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=186978&page=1]Civilian MARPAT User Spotted![/url]. And you are calling me a troll?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:00:39 PM EDT
Im glad to see that some have nothing better to do. as to my mags, the items are advertised correctly. In response to my alleged posting of CC # info, is NOT true. we did respond in kind to post all the info relating to the issue. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. slash find somthing better to do. try cutting the grass around your traler or somthing. also we do not take post ban mags and cover them up with paint ot other material. we find items like this all over the world and import them. if you dont like my price or product that is your right, but we sell thousands of them 24/7. as you read this I am replying to a request for over 20,000 mags. you will soon see some m16 mags that have never made it to the US market in any numbers soon. we hope to have them in first week of AUG. you all have a nice day. R GUNS OUT.. WWW.RGUNS.NET
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:07:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RGUNS: Im glad to see that some have nothing better to do. as to my mags, the items are advertised correctly.
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If thats the case lets see some facts to back up your claim. You seem to be the only person in the world who has it, as there is more collective knowledge about mags on this board than any other place and nobody here has ever seen any evidince of these mags being used by the military or any military specs for this style mag, nor found any evidince of them being produced prior to 94. It is not mil spec just cause Roger looks at it and says "yup, looks good to me, its mil-spec!"
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:29:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 12:37:29 PM EDT by ANGST]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By XM777:
To top it off, can't FFL's legally purchase and distribute LEO-only products? Why the need to impersonate? Like I said before...if they did infact impersonate, how can they still have an FFL? Not saying it isnt true, but given that they are still around, it doesn't add up.
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My sediments exactly. FFLs can purchase all of the LEO Weapons they please. But then some Morons are of the mentality "Its got to be right if the liberal newpaper says so" [noclue]
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Well, even if it was a liberal newspaper the fact that he plead guilty kinda confirms it.....
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Maybe he was buying MG's, Post Samples require a demo letter , even if you have a 01 FFL + Class III SOT. Or some dealers require letterhead for stuff like Remington PSS's and the like .
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:32:29 PM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 4:28:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 4:33:48 PM EDT by SULACO2]
RGUNS- I've posted earlier in this thread. My interest is objective and not personal. I've ordered from you in the past, was treated decently, neither particularly well, nor particularly badly. And would be willing to order from you in the future. I have absolutely no personal negative feelings about RGUNS as I have not been mistreated in the past, however, I do not discredit those that claim they have. You provide a service, and as long as that service benefits me, I will be willing to use it. Should that service ever cease to benefit me in one form or another I will stop using it. Its that simple. I don't know you personally, nor do I feel I need to. Having said that; I am interested in any source of genuine/legal pre-ban magazines. So I would like to know, where these Teflon pre-bans come from. I would be willing to order them, should my curiosity be satisfied. If they are LaBelles, would LaBelle be willing to verify this. If not LaBelles, what other magazine co. manufactured Teflons. Why if those Teflons are Labelles are they different in finish from the older Teflons? Did LaBelle change their finsh? Where do those 20s come from? Who made them? Lke I said I'm willing to give anyone a chance/benefit of the doubt. I'm not challenging you or attempting to question your integrity. However, I think its plain to see from my earlier posts, and those of others, that there is a large amount of valid concerns regarding the source/authenticity of the magazines you've come cross. If I am wrong I'll be the first member on this forum to stand up and apollogize, and place an order. However, I think if you care to contest the allegations made against your business or you personally, this would be a good time. If the facts are as you state, please air them here so that the record can be set straight in a public forum. I thank you for your time, and look foward to a clarification of this matter. Sulaco2
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 5:27:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RGUNS: Im glad to see that some have nothing better to do... GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. slash find somthing better to do. try cutting the grass around your traler or somthing...
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What could I do that would be more productive than warning my fellow gun-owning consumers to avoid associating themselves with a convicted felon? I have my facts straight, you have not and cannot refute them. I don't live in a 'traler', but if I did would that make me any more or less credible? I know a lot of good, honest, hard-working folks who live in 'tralers'. What kind of house do you live in Roger? Does it really matter? NO!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 5:43:35 PM EDT
hahaha this is a funny thread
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 7:07:49 AM EDT
IT is a standard business practice not to tell ones competors the sources of product. I am not going to get into a pissing contest that will just go on and on. there are some with to much time on there hands on this board. I stand by all product we sell. it is as advertised. slash you need to get a life, and find somthing better to do. try and put your energy into fighting bad gun laws. R GUNS OUT
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 9:28:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2003 9:41:42 AM EDT by XM777]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: If thats the case lets see some facts to back up your claim. You seem to be the only person in the world who has it, as there is more collective knowledge about mags on this board than any other place and nobody here has ever seen any evidince of these mags being used by the military or any military specs for this style mag, nor found any evidince of them being produced prior to 94. It is not mil spec just cause Roger looks at it and says "yup, looks good to me, its mil-spec!"
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Here is another fraud for you to expose- From biggerhammer.net's (The Original) Mag FAQ by James Wesley Rawles: [url]www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/magazines/rawlesfaq.html[/url]
G.I. contract 30 round. Black plastic followers. Teflon finish. [red]This is the latest military specification,[/red] which started only in June, 1994. Functionally, these are the best of the breed, because they have a slick, durable Teflon coat inside and out. Very few of these magazines made it onto the civilian market before the ban started on Sept. 13, 1994. All were made by Labelle Industries. They made batches for the civilian market in both grey and black Teflon. Most of these were marked: Cal. 5.56mm, a part number, and Made in U.S.A. (Note that Bushmaster/Quality Parts had Labelle make up a batch for them with BFI floorplates. Labelle did the same for Defense Procurement Management Service (DPMS). Military production pre-Sept 13, 1994 are not date stamped. Post Sept. 13, 1994 production are date stamped an a no-no for U.S. civilians to possess. I sold out long ago, but I've heard that Quality Parts/Bushmaster (BFI) still has some.
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I think you need to go over to BiggerHammer and tell Mr. Rawles that he is a liar and fraud also. When you do, please post his response, that is something I would like to see!
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:03:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SULACO2: RGUNS- I've posted earlier in this thread. My interest is objective and not personal. I've ordered from you in the past, was treated decently, neither particularly well, nor particularly badly....Sulaco2
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Sulaco2- Nicely done. You have not started a pissing match. All you are looking for is the truth. If they are what they purport to be, you even say you'd buy. The way I see it here are the issues presented in this thread (I hope this does not slide us deeper down the slope). 1) Accuracy of the terminology in RGUNS ads My personal take- no big deal as we have mag FAQ's and people here to help each other. That's how this this thread started- a simple honest query for the truth. Fighting over if a teflon coating was milspec is really not the crux of the discussion here. 2) Past track record or RGUNS/KMA here on the boards The posting of personal info and the past personal attacks by KMA/RGUNS. This boils down to personal opinion on whether people can change and do you hold a grudge. 3) Origin/Legality of mags in question. Roger has a point with not revealing his source. There is two reasons here- either he does not want us to know the truth, or he may lose the exclusivity of legit items. It is a shame however in my eyes for him. There are lots of people who are still buying or still willing to buy from him. Roger has cleaned up his act immensely as far as posting goes. Got to give him credit there. I would think if he stays his present course on the straight and narrow extra info would shed some light on the mags in question and help bring more/new customers back. In closing I again state we will probably never know the truth of the areas in question. Hopefully, with some hard work someday it won't matter as pre and post will be terms from the past like "prohibition".
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:58:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XM777:
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: If thats the case lets see some facts to back up your claim. You seem to be the only person in the world who has it, as there is more collective knowledge about mags on this board than any other place and nobody here has ever seen any evidince of these mags being used by the military or any military specs for this style mag, nor found any evidince of them being produced prior to 94. It is not mil spec just cause Roger looks at it and says "yup, looks good to me, its mil-spec!"
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Here is another fraud for you to expose- From biggerhammer.net's (The Original) Mag FAQ by James Wesley Rawles: [url]www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/magazines/rawlesfaq.html[/url]
G.I. contract 30 round. Black plastic followers. Teflon finish. [red]This is the latest military specification,[/red] which started only in June, 1994. Functionally, these are the best of the breed, because they have a slick, durable Teflon coat inside and out. Very few of these magazines made it onto the civilian market before the ban started on Sept. 13, 1994. All were made by Labelle Industries. They made batches for the civilian market in both grey and black Teflon. Most of these were marked: Cal. 5.56mm, a part number, and Made in U.S.A. (Note that Bushmaster/Quality Parts had Labelle make up a batch for them with BFI floorplates. Labelle did the same for Defense Procurement Management Service (DPMS). Military production pre-Sept 13, 1994 are not date stamped. Post Sept. 13, 1994 production are date stamped an a no-no for U.S. civilians to possess. I sold out long ago, but I've heard that Quality Parts/Bushmaster (BFI) still has some.
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I think you need to go over to BiggerHammer and tell Mr. Rawles that he is a liar and fraud also. When you do, please post his response, that is something I would like to see!
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Just sent the following email.
[red]Mr Rawles, I have read your MAG FAQ on AR-15/M-16 magazines and have a question that has developed out of a debate on another board. In your FAQ you state: "G.I. contract 30 round. Black plastic followers. Teflon finish. This is the latest military specification, which started only in June, 1994. " Can you provide me with any documentation of the teflon finish being done to a military specification? I know numerous vendors have made this claim, but during my time in service I have used and handled literally thousands of post-ban magazines made from 1994-2002 and have never encountered a teflon finish on one. Can you help shed some light on this and settle our debate? I have reviewed the solicitaions for bids on the manufacturing of new mags and can find no reference to any teflon coating.
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[/red] Will post his response when it arrives.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 3:01:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RGUNS: IT is a standard business practice not to tell ones competors the sources of product. I am not going to get into a pissing contest that will just go on and on. there are some with to much time on there hands on this board. I stand by all product we sell. it is as advertised. slash you need to get a life, and find somthing better to do. try and put your energy into fighting bad gun laws. R GUNS OUT
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I never asked where you got them. I asked for proof they were made to a military specification. Such would be: Mil-spec numbers describing that mag Military contracts that were issued for that mag a national stock number for that mag ANY evidince of its official purchase and use by the military. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:41:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2003 4:49:52 PM EDT by Slash]
Originally Posted By RGUNS: I[red]T[/red] is a standard business practice not to tell [red]ones competors[/red] the sources of product. I am not going to get into a pissing contest that will just go on and on. [red]t[/red]here are some with [red]to[/red] much time on [red]there[/red] hands on this board. I stand by all product we sell. [red]i[/red]t is as advertised. [red]s[/red]lash you need to get a life, and find [red]somthing[/red] better to do. [red]t[/red]ry and put your energy into fighting bad gun laws. R GUNS OUT
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It is standard practice to use proper spelling, punctuation and grammar. I can assure you that my elected representatives know who I am and where I stand on many issues, including gun control. If you are truly concerned about the the future of our RKBA, I suggest that you sell your business to someone with a clean criminal record. Imagine the field day that the lefties would have if they found out that a CONVICTED FELON is running a gun shop!
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:31:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2003 5:33:21 PM EDT by XM777]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
[red]Mr Rawles, I have read your MAG FAQ on AR-15/M-16 magazines and have a question that has developed out of a debate on another board. In your FAQ you state: "G.I. contract 30 round. Black plastic followers. Teflon finish. This is the latest military specification, which started only in June, 1994. " Can you provide me with any documentation of the teflon finish being done to a military specification? I know numerous vendors have made this claim, but during my time in service I have used and handled literally thousands of post-ban magazines made from 1994-2002 and have never encountered a teflon finish on one. Can you help shed some light on this and settle our debate? I have reviewed the solicitaions for bids on the manufacturing of new mags and can find no reference to any teflon coating.
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[/red] Will post his response when it arrives.
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Well, Through my employment with a large Military/Police Supplier I also have handled many thousands of Post-Ban Magazines. All I can is that just because YOU have never seen military issue Teflon Magazines, that does not mean that they do not exist. To substantiate what I am saying I am posting several pictures of military issue teflon coated 30rd M16 magazines. The labels on the plastic bags list the NSN number, part number, drawing number, and ASTM. While what I can say about these is limited, I will say that we bid on and purchased a large quantity of these from a Govt. Contractor as a contract overrun. As far as use by the US Military, we have sold over 10K of these to units deploying to Afghanistan and Kuwait/Iraq over the past year. So you could say they are "In Use". I will hotlink these pics only to accommodate the bandwidth challenged. [url=www.armscenter.com/xm777/DSCN0161.jpg]1. A half dozen Military Issue Teflon Bushmasters. [/url] [url=www.armscenter.com/xm777/DSCN0163.jpg]2. Label listing military nomenclature. [/url] [url=www.armscenter.com/xm777/DSCN0166.jpg]3. Close up of teflon coated magazine body with mfg. date. [/url] [url=www.armscenter.com/xm777/DSCN0168.jpg]4. Close up of BFI (Bushmaster) Windham, ME floorplate. [/url] So I suppose that you are going to tell me now that these are a figment of my imagination?? And Slash, STFU!!
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