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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/31/2005 8:39:57 AM EDT
Last season I purchased a box of Winchester power point plus 64grain. I never got around to sighting my rifle in with it so I used my MAK90 instead.

Well I mounted my scope and hit the range yesterday. Needless to say I cannot get any groups worth having with the power point plus.

I was only getting 3'' groups at best at 100 yards and 1-1.5'' at 50 yards. I was discouraged. Thought maybe it was my rifle.

So I shot a box of the oldschool laquer coated wolf. At 50 yards I was hitting the previous hole everytime. 5-6 shots in a dime size area. 100 yard groups got down to 1.5''. Much better.

I wasn't shooting off bags..I was just resting off an ammo can BUT still wofl was much much more accurate than the power point plus.

With this in mind...how do you think some q3131a would do on whitetails? I've noticed a lot of guys kill boar with it. So why not whitetails?

I have shot quiet a bit of q3131a and noticed it is pretty damn accurate. Any reason I shouldn't use it? It will be from a 16'' barrel at no more than 100 yards (WV you can hardly see 50 yards in front of you). I may be getting a 20'' upper before hunting season so I may get even more velocity.

::edit:: before someone says it. I have no other rifle for whitetails at the moment. Sold my MAK90, sold my 30-30, and my father loaned out his .270 savage to my grandfather. So my AR15 is my hunting rifle this season.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:48:45 AM EDT
I personally am strongly against using a varmint round on deer. Is it even legal in WV?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:49:33 AM EDT
Yes. Anything non-rimfire is legal for deer.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:56:18 AM EDT
FWIW, the Power Points I use are always handloaded, (it's the only way I can get them to group sub-MOA at 100 yards).

I would not use the Q3131A for deer....., you'll be pickin bullet fragments outta of the meat and your dental bill could be prohibitive.

I would chose the heaviest weight bullet your rifle will group sub-MOA with and would sooner use a Fed GM 69grn. SMK than the M193, (simply make certain your getting a CNS shot/POA).

The Hornady 75grn match BTHP would be a better choice if your twist rate can handle it.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:57:54 AM EDT
I think there may be some rule against using FMJ for deer hunting.

Plus the FMJ will not incapcitate a deer quick enough. Sure you'll hit 'em but it will probably run off a LONG WAYS and you won't find him. A good waste of game.

I would suggest, use the appropriate bullet for the appropriate game.

The power point is designed for such and should prove very effective on game. I have seen it used on deer before and it does a good job with good shot placement. (What I saw was a good boiler room shot)

The group size you are getting with your 64 gr power point is VERY reasonable for deer hunting out to 100 yards. You mentioned you sold your 30-30, what type of accuracy were you getting with that at 100 yards? My guess is the same accuracy as you presently have with the 64 gr Power Point bullets.

good luck.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:58:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 9:00:48 AM EDT by SickMAK90]
Are the power point bullets a good choice for whitetails?

I am shooting a 1/9 twist so I probably shouldn't use anything over 64 correct? Or is that even to much? Maybe thats why I have trouble grouping?

I never got good groups with that 30-30. I am more accurate with my AR15 with irons than most other rifles I have had with a scope. I thought about hunting with irons BUT scopes are nice to have to help positive ID a buck from a doe (brush can make it hard).
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:43:51 AM EDT
If you are a proficient hunter with the self control to restrain from marginal shots I would say go for it.
I've been using a 308, 6.5x55, 10mm and 22lr(crop damage tag) on local deer here.
I've been thining about taking the M4 or the A2 out for a go. Though I'll probably loads some 52 grain Barnes TSX's.
With the wound characteristic seen with Q3131A a deer would be hard pressed to survive long on a solid lung shot.
Neck or CNS shots are a no brainer heI've dropped deer with head shots at 50 yards with Federal 22 HV copper plated.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 10:07:06 AM EDT
Wonder how much meat q3131a would destroy?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 11:49:40 AM EDT
It certainly wouldn't be my first choice, for load or for caliber.

Even at 2700+ fps, it's not a sure bet that it will fragment.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:05:26 PM EDT
64 gr Win Power points are designed for game like deer, they are a good bullet provided shot placement is good.

Your grouping of 3" at 100 yards is good for deer. If you shooting at that distance you will have time to place your shot.

IF the "Q" fragmented and you did not shoot into the onside shoulder, probably no meat wasted, but my guess is that the whole deer will be wasted, because the wound will be insufficient to incapicate the deer quick enough for you to recover it.

IF you shot into the shoulder, it would probably put a nasty wound on the deer and same result as above.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but please stay away from the FMJ ammo. Go with the Power Point or get some X bullets, PMC may load them in 223. They will expand reliably, and penetrate and be your best bet.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:10:18 PM EDT
I've killed numerous deer with .223 here in WV. I've always used either 50grn or 62grn hollow points though, not the Q. I've used my 16 inch 6920 out to 125 yards with no problematic results and have eaten a lot of the deer taken. With neck and chest shots, I've never had any fragments in any of the meat. Neck shots usually result in an on the spot collapse. SickMAK is correct, the only requirement is centerfire cartridges from a rifle. There is no restriction on bullet type. If I were you Sick, I'd invest in a decent HP, if .223 is all you have to work with. What part of WV BTW.... ?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 12:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Yes. Anything non-rimfire is legal for deer.

In .223 use the best projectile you can. That is probably 64gr Powerpoints.

Controlled expansion is better for "meat" animals as there is less chance of finding lead particles in your meal.

I personally wouldn't hunt with the .223, or Q3131a.

If you have the scratch for a 20" upper, maybe get an OLY WSSM upper and get a bigger caliber like the .25WSSM.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:18:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 6:39:48 PM EDT by Orange_Neck]

Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
I am shooting a 1/9 twist so I probably shouldn't use anything over 64 correct? Or is that even to much? Maybe thats why I have trouble grouping?

You should be able to go all the way up to 75 grain.

ETA: Last year, I used Black Hills blue box 68 gr. heavy match HP in your fine state 'cause I was tired of the Remington 150 gr. Express Core-Lokt PSP 30-06 destroying too much meat. May I also suggest Remington 69 gr. MatchKing BTHP which the maker's site states is for barrels with 1:7"~10" twist.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:26:32 PM EDT
Don't do it. The reasons are too many to list here.

Go with something that starts with a 3. Use the ar for selfdefense and killing varmits.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:10:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By possumkop:
What part of WV BTW.... ?

I am in the Barboursville/Huntington area.

As of right now my .223 is my only choice of hunting rifle. I have been thinking about a bigger cal. upper but there is always some catch to the setup. I'd be interested in a 6.8 if ammo would come out. I would like to have a 7.62x39 upper but they usually don't shoot wolf. And the mag situation sucks...and extractors break....
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 1:32:43 AM EDT
if you want an AR that's main purpose is for shedding meat in the freezer get a wssm upper. if you'd like to have an AR that does mostly short and no long range shots for the purpose of plinking and packing the freezer get a 6.8 upper....if you just want to send lead down range, stay at the .223. with the .223 it's got enough power to dispatch deer/bear if the shooters up to it using the right ammo and it's also got the upper hand in supreme accuracy over the 7.62..the 7.62x39 is only great in the ak because it's got no other point in it's life other than to just go bang everytime and used at 100yds or less.

what barrel twist is ur ar? if it's atleast a 1:9 it'll handle the 64gr pp's well if you roll ur own ammo. other than that if it's got a 10 twist or above then find some 53gr barnes X's
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:07:41 AM EDT
It is 1/9 twist.

I have been thinking about getting reloading equipment. Can you buy the power point bullets alone? I already have at least 400 brass casings for 5.56/.223.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:23:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 7:25:06 AM EDT by Blammer]
Yes you can buy the Power Point bullets as components, but if you are going to relaod I would go with the Barnes Triple X bullet for deer.

I guess I better Be Careful they May close or lock this thread because it is getting OFF topic.

Uh ohh, is that the voodoo police I hear coming?

Link Posted: 9/1/2005 8:19:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 8:19:49 AM EDT by SickMAK90]
Should I get the .224'' diameter 53 grain?

Thats all I see in the X-bullet besides 70 grain which is probably to much for 1/9 twist. 20$ for 50 bullets. I have the brass and I have a buddy who does reloading. Could probably talk him into making me a batch for cheap.

Also my brass collection is a mix of q3131a brass and .223 WWB brass. Any difference?
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 9:05:04 AM EDT
Yes you can buy Power Point bullets (I use the older PP vs the newer PP+).

As to brass, YMMV, but I load for accuracy using nuthin but Remington brass (can't explain it but Remington just seems to be the most accurate brass for my rifles) and my loads for SHTF issues (for my M4s) always go in LC (Lake City) brass.

As brass can vary when loading a variety of brands (for instance LC tends to have thicker walls and can be pushed harder) I prefer to establish the load with ONE brand of brass and stick with it for that load.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:56:46 AM EDT
do the deer and yourself a favor..

find a good HUNTING bullet..

i have killed aloooooooooottttttttttttttttttttttt of deer with a .223 with different types of ammo..
some good, some bad.

the consistant killers/incapacitors on whitetails were usually 60-70 gr partition/power point style bullet.
much better all the way around.

you can thank me later...

post pics.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 11:52:30 AM EDT
I guess I am going to continue to use the power point plus rounds.

I may try to get some reloading equipment in the future and load my own.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:22:50 PM EDT
I picked up a package of the older power points earlier. Hopefully they shoot better. They are semi-jacketed so they may work better.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:37:09 PM EDT
TNTreloading sells the 64gr PP slugs, available here: www14.inetba.com/tandtreloading/productCat46593.ctlg

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:55:28 PM EDT
Anyone know how much $$ I would need to get started reloading?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:24:28 PM EDT
Approximately $300 will get you a GOOD start up kit that will pretty much have all you need.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 4:37:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 4:37:53 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By Blammer:
Approximately $300 will get you a GOOD start up kit that will pretty much have all you need.

And $70 will get ya a LEE Annivesary Reloading Kit, leaving ya money for powder, primers, bullets and brass.

It also will give ya a chance to see if reloading is something your gonna be interested in without breaking the bank.

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:09:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By Blammer:
Approximately $300 will get you a GOOD start up kit that will pretty much have all you need.

And $70 will get ya a LEE Annivesary Reloading Kit, leaving ya money for powder, primers, bullets and brass.

It also will give ya a chance to see if reloading is something your gonna be interested in without breaking the bank.


This is excellent advice. The LEE kit is not fancy, but it has all you need to get started. I have loaded a ton of ammo on this very kit. So far the only upgrade I have felt the need for was to a digital scale. YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:35:00 AM EDT
Yes the $70 kit will get you started, I was also remembering that there are many other things you may "want" (several types of bullets, several types of powder, etc) that will nickle and dime you to death. If you plan on $300 total you can get all you want, and always stop before you reach that amount.

But REMEMBER! Reloading is an ADDICTION! It seem you always want to buy "just one more thing" to help you out, or "hmmm I think an electronic scale is better...." cha ching!h.gif
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:17:28 AM EDT
I don't need anything expensive anyways. Right now the only thing I will be reloading is .223's mainly for deer hunting. And maybe 30-06 for my fathers rifle.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:48:13 PM EDT
If you don't get set up to reload in time. Why not buy a box of Federal Ammunition with the 60 gr Partition.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 1:56:07 PM EDT
Hi guys,
I tried the 60gr. Nosler Partition 2 seasons ago. At that time, this bullet was only available for hand loading. A 150 lb buck ran 50 yds after a broadside hit in the heart/lungs from 75 yds out. The bullet performed well, but did not exit. Rifle was a 16" Bushmaster. Use a longer barrel to get the velocity up and you might get the 60 gr. Nosler to exit. But I picked up a Colt 7.62x39 16" upper for deer at close range. The Scherer/G-Tech mags are reliable for me.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 5:45:22 PM EDT
I am going to try to get a Remington 700 for precision/deer shooting. Doubt I will get it in time. I need to go shoot the older power point plus I have and see if they perform any better.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 7:00:46 PM EDT
with the partition, if it doesn't touch bone it'll very likely not expand/blow up as it's supposed to. it's designed so that when the bullet hits the front half of the bullet would mushroom&blow or frag, the the base of it supposed to keep going becaused it's sealed in between the front end.
the 60gr partition is best suited for bigger bucks, I'd personally opt. for the 68-77otms for an all around use because it'll perform at best in most of all situations
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