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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 11/2/2009 12:35:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 12:38:28 PM EST by Flogger23m]
I am thinking of buying a Colt retro upper that someone is selling locally. It comes with no BCG or chagrining handle.

I will be placing it on my Grizzly lower with DPMS parts kit. The lower is your standard modern made AR-15 lower. Will they work fine together?

Will any BCG and charging handle work fine (Spikes, CMMG, DPMS ect) in this Colt upper?

Here is a pic (only buying upper/stock/PG):



The lower it will go on:


And some less important questions:
Assuming they do work together, is there any difference in the lower between an M16A2 and M16/A (not talking about full auto ect.)1? Aside from the stock and pistol grip, which I am getting with the upper?

Just wondering, because then I will know if this turns out to be a proper M16 clone or will turn out as a mismatched rifle.

Need these questions answered pretty soon.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 12:43:11 PM EST
it will work...I would save up and buy a NoDak A1 lower and you will be in a correct looking lower for that upper...

http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm


Mike
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 12:56:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 12:57:27 PM EST by hemiman]
there are quite a few differences between an A2 lower and an A1.. at first...if you dont know where to look its hard to tell, but once you see them side by side its night and day. Nodak Spud (NDS) makes great the greatest A1 lowers that would match that upper perfectly. they'd be two pea's in a pod

ETA: any charging handle, BCG etc. are interchangable. between an A1 and A2..no differences at all..
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:03:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By hemiman:
there are quite a few differences between an A2 lower and an A1.. at first...if you dont know where to look its hard to tell, but once you see them side by side its night and day. Nodak Spud (NDS) makes great the greatest A1 lowers that would match that upper perfectly. they'd be two pea's in a pod

ETA: any charging handle, BCG etc. are interchangable. between an A1 and A2..no differences at all..




Ok thanks for the replies. Can anyone point out the specific differences between the lowers?

Maybe I will have to get an NDS lower sometime in the future.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:07:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 1:15:53 PM EST by hemiman]
il get some pics up in a min hopefully no one beats me to it!

ETA..pics arent working..go to Nodak spuds website..look at their a1 lower..compare to yours the following...the rear where the buffer tube screws in...the A2 is beefed up here compared to the A1 youll notice..the A1 does not have the selector marks on the right side...only left..and look at the profile of the front pivot pin..outer profile..like the from of the receiver...youll see...
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:18:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 1:25:14 PM EST by Flogger23m]
Originally Posted By hemiman:
il get some pics up in a min hopefully no one beats me to it!

ETA..pics arent working..go to Nodak spuds website..look at their a1 lower..compare to yours the following...the rear where the buffer tube screws in...the A2 is beefed up here compared to the A1 youll notice..the A1 does not have the selector marks on the right side...only left..and look at the profile of the front pivot pin..outer profile..like the from of the receiver...youll see...


Ok, about to do that.

Does the A1 stock and pistol grip fit on my A2 lower?

Might prefer the shorter stock over the A2.

Also, since the upper does not have a forward assist, this makes it an M16 (XM16?) clone, rather than an M16A1 clone correct?

So does that mean I need this lower (601):


Or this one (XM16E1):


Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:33:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 1:36:56 PM EST by hemiman]
Well, depending on how "Accurate your tryin to go with your build...the xm16E1 works with a forward assist upper..and so does the NDSA1 lower... what i mean by accurate is if you have an early barrel or early upper... This Site will answer most if not all of your questions about what model build you wanna make..click "Military rifles" also on the top of this forum theres a sticky for th uppers...its a guide..shows your all the markings etc. so you can accurately date your upper assembly

ETA...This will help you find out what type of upper you have and date. But..appearance wise...a Forward assist upper goes with an XM16E1 ower or an NDSA1 lower. now, markings etc. can also determine which would be..."more" correct
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:52:02 PM EST
Ok thanks for the links. Looks like the upper is a 601, so I will have to go with that lower.

The A1 lower looks a lot like the A2. So maybe I will find an A1 style upper for sale in the future and swap it with my 601 style.

Thanks for the replies. The links were very helpful.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 2:10:19 PM EST
woops..this whole time i thought the upper had a forward assist...
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 2:17:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Ok thanks for the links. Looks like the upper is a 601, so I will have to go with that lower.

The A1 lower looks a lot like the A2. So maybe I will find an A1 style upper for sale in the future and swap it with my 601 style.

Thanks for the replies. The links were very helpful.


Any chance you can get a closer pic of the upper? I doubt it's a 601 upper...am guessing it's a 604...but a good look at the right side––particularly showing the area of the rear sight––could clarify things.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:35:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Ok thanks for the links. Looks like the upper is a 601, so I will have to go with that lower.

The A1 lower looks a lot like the A2. So maybe I will find an A1 style upper for sale in the future and swap it with my 601 style.

Thanks for the replies. The links were very helpful.


Any chance you can get a closer pic of the upper? I doubt it's a 601 upper...am guessing it's a 604...but a good look at the right side––particularly showing the area of the rear sight––could clarify things.


I'll see if I can.

Also in general, how much are these worth?
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:53:21 PM EST
We'd also like to see any marking on the barrel - check it 360 degrees - many were on underside. We can date it for you and tell you what you have with the right info, then point you to the appropriate lower. Welcome to the forum!
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 4:15:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 4:39:12 PM EST by Flogger23m]
Barrel is marked:

C MP CHROME BORE

Can't really check it since it isn't mind yet. The owner doesn't know if it is a 601 or 604.

Too bad I am trading my AK for it. Would have made great counter parts. But, when I get the cash I will get another AK.

Edit: Some more pics:










Link Posted: 11/2/2009 7:56:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 7:58:06 PM EST by C6H12O6]
I wouldn't trade your AK for that. Here's why:

1) it's neutered. Someone cut off the bayonet lug, which sucks. Replacing the front sight base is not a simple matter and without the lug, no bayonets for you, which also sucks.
2) no bolt carrier group or charging handle? That means you're gonna have to spend at least $150 to get something else, unless you have one laying around.

Unless your AK is all ragged out and shitty, it's not worth it IMO. You'll find uppers like this one but not WECSOG'd for anywhere from $300-$400, sometimes including the BCG & CH.

Keep looking at the "Original EE" in the AR-15 Used Parts section, do keyword searches on "RETRO." Also check sites like Gunbroker.

ETA: I guess #1 doesn't apply if you live in a nanny-state.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 3:31:51 PM EST
May not be an all-original upper...possibly put together from various parts? The CM hrome Bore barrels are, what––post-74? The delta ring (the tapered slipring) is an A2 item, I believe. Type D stock, I'm guessing (there's no trap door in the stock, is there?). Oh, and you'll need to replace the missing rear sling swivel.

I've been looking at it as a military upper (604), but I suppose it could be a civilian SP1 upper.

Will be waiting for a good pic of the right side of the upper receiver.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 3:44:46 PM EST
Probably not an SP1 upper since it is using a .250 normal front pin. If it is a 604, the NDS A1 lower would also go well assuming the barrel is as late as Ol'gunner thinks - I also think it is. There should be a letter, R in a circle and a number on the right side of the FSB. There should be a two digit number or date code on the barrel, under the hand guards, just behind the FSB. Those things will narrow down the production date of the barrel. Something doesn't look right with the barrel where it meets the FH. It looks flat in the picture and should have a rise just before the FS - it's missing the lock washer, too.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 3:50:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By RLR350:
It looks flat in the picture and should have a rise just before the FS - it's missing the lock washer, too.



What is a lock washer and what does it do? Something needed for proper function?

It doesn't really matter much if it is 100% like a real retro upper, but if there are things that make it not work right then I would have issues with that.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 3:58:30 PM EST
I was just thinking "Man, this guy must think it's all screwed up."

The gun you posted will work fine (assuming everything is in working order and built correctly). The majority of the things posted are just in relation to making it correct looking for a retro.

A lock washer/split washer or crushwasher goes between the flash suppressor and the barrel. The split washer looks like your common locking washer and was older. Newer rifles with flash suppressor that need to be timed, like an A2 would use a crushwasher. They keep the flash suppressor on/aligned. Some flash suppressors don't use either, but the one you have should. I use them when they are recommended and don't use them when they are not - so I have no idea if it matters.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 12:27:59 PM EST
So overall, how would you guys compare this to a modern Stag, DPMS, Double star, Delton, ect? Those are the only other things in my price range and don't come with the extra stock/pistol grip. Actually, they cost more here.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 1:51:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
So overall, how would you guys compare this to a modern Stag, DPMS, Double star, Delton, ect? Those are the only other things in my price range and don't come with the extra stock/pistol grip. Actually, they cost more here.



Don't let us discourage you here. Remember, we're by and large a bunch of anal retentive purists (to one extent or another) who will gladly point out every little "flaw" in a rifle––even though they're not really flaws. For instance, you have no washer behind the flash hider, but even if you installed one, we'd be sure to tell you if it wasn't the "right" type for your particular model. That's not a functional flaw...just a detail.

As I understand this, first and foremost, you're looking for a shooter, right? Historical accuracy is perhaps secondary?
That's cool. Then what you need to pay attention to is condition. Examine all parts carefully. Is the bore shiny and clean? No rust or pitting? Check the chamber condition. Look for damage to the upper. Cracks in the furniture.
If you have gauges, it's nice to be able to check throat erosion and barrel straightness. These are things that "new rifle" buyers don't have to worry about but sometimes we do.
If you see anything you question, get a good closeup pic and post it here. We'll give you our opinions (as you've probably noticed).

Bottom line, it looks like what you've shown could be turned into a retro style AR, using whatever additional parts you prefer. You could buy a cheap A2 lower and make a shooter (be prepared for heckling), or you can start collecting the "correct" retro pieces and studying the variant guides.

As for whether it's worth an AK or whatever you're giving up for it, that's something only you can decide. Personally, I'm not a big AK fan (I respect 'em, just don't enjoy them very much), so I'd place less value on an AK than others might. On the other hand, I never sell or trade guns. I always find some other way to get new one.
It's all up to you!
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 1:55:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 1:57:42 PM EST by TexSquirrel]
It is not a 601 upper.
It is a rebarreled (or modified late barrel) 604.
Look at where the magazine well ridge matches the lower.
It has the wrong slip ring and a neutered bayo lug.
The flash hider might be pinned as well.
I wouldn't trade an AK in good shape for this upper and I'm not an AK fan.
I don't own any AKs, but I do own 19 ARs.
That might make me a little more critical of the upper though.
In my opinion there are better uppers to be traded for/bought.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 1:59:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
So overall, how would you guys compare this to a modern Stag, DPMS, Double star, Delton, ect? Those are the only other things in my price range and don't come with the extra stock/pistol grip. Actually, they cost more here.



OlGunner is right...

heres my .02 ...

If i were you, i would shoot your rifle the way it is now, and enjoy it...Its got a great history behind it im sure...and over time.. i would slowly buy the correct parts for it..and slowly make it correct. (Which honestly wouldnt take..alot..and at the end.. i personally would take it over any stag or dpms..

but thats just me
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 2:05:12 PM EST
Is that a sear hole?
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 2:07:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By ranchhand:
Is that a sear hole?


Sure looks like it.
Probably why only the upper is for sale.
I wonder if it is registered...
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:19:04 PM EST
Yeah, it doesn't have to be 100% correct to 604 (or 601 or w/e) specs. I am mainly looking for an affordable shooter that does not have an M4 upper.

Mainly I am just trying to see if it is worth it over a Stag/DPMS/whatever other budget upper.

I do plan on selling it in the future (for another AR upper, AK, pistol, or whatever I decide on next).
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:32:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Yeah, it doesn't have to be 100% correct to 604 (or 601 or w/e) specs. I am mainly looking for an affordable shooter that does not have an M4 upper.

Mainly I am just trying to see if it is worth it over a Stag/DPMS/whatever other budget upper.

I do plan on selling it in the future (for another AR upper, AK, pistol, or whatever I decide on next).


It's worth less than a new upper. These were $150 complete a couple of years ago.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 3:42:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By ranchhand:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Yeah, it doesn't have to be 100% correct to 604 (or 601 or w/e) specs. I am mainly looking for an affordable shooter that does not have an M4 upper.

Mainly I am just trying to see if it is worth it over a Stag/DPMS/whatever other budget upper.

I do plan on selling it in the future (for another AR upper, AK, pistol, or whatever I decide on next).


It's worth less than a new upper. These were $150 complete a couple of years ago.



But now worth more than a couple of years ago....
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:44:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By hemiman:
Originally Posted By ranchhand:
Originally Posted By Flogger23m:
Yeah, it doesn't have to be 100% correct to 604 (or 601 or w/e) specs. I am mainly looking for an affordable shooter that does not have an M4 upper.

Mainly I am just trying to see if it is worth it over a Stag/DPMS/whatever other budget upper.

I do plan on selling it in the future (for another AR upper, AK, pistol, or whatever I decide on next).


It's worth less than a new upper. These were $150 complete a couple of years ago.



But now worth more than a couple of years ago....


Not that neutered mutt.

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