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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 4/2/2006 4:11:12 AM EST
OK I have a 20" rifle with an A2 stock on. I changed out my standard buffer spring for a wolff extra power spring because my rifle wouldn't strip the first round out of a mag loaded with even 5 rounds by hitting the bolt release on an open bolt.

I went to the range with the new wolff spring installed and everything was shooting fine with xm193 and IMI 223 but when I went to Q3131 I had massive short stroking issues. Almost every round would eject but then I would have an empty chamber on the next round. On the last round the bolt would fail to hold open as well.

Although the wolff spring worked great for stripping out the first round now, now I have short stroking issues with some ammo. Should I start to cut coils off the back end of the spring one by one until it doesn't short stroke anymore? I think the wolff spring was only longer than my standard spring by like one coil to begin with.

thanks
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:14:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:17:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 5:18:04 AM EST by jackal2001]
it was a basically new complete lower that had issues off the bat stripping the rounds. RRA complete lower.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:23:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:28:06 AM EST
nope, checked and confirmed the buffer and spring.
I went through this before, and it was the correct parts. only the lower was complete direct from RRA. the upper was built for me custom.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:01:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 7:01:34 PM EST by Garandboy]
Why do you need an extra power spring? Not being a wise ass just asking.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:13:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:13:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:43:01 AM EST
I got the XP spring because the factory spring was not strong enough to strip rounds out of a mag. I would jam every time when hitting the bolt release on a fresh mag no matter how many rounds were in the mag. - didn't i say that already???

I read another guys post and he also cut a few links off because the wolf springs are just a little too strong to cycle some ammo.
As well as those CM springs as well that some are selling. I was reading that some guys have problems with those short stroking on some ammo as well.

Weapon hand cycles fine, shoots fine with xm193 and imi223, but not q3131. go back to imi and all fine, go back to q3131 and short strokes and repeat over and over again.

I cut about 1.5 loops off to see if that helps it. Some other people said they just use a carbine buffer in a rifle with a heavy spring and that helps as well.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:31:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:42:13 AM EST
No not a carbine buffer spring in a full length stock - a carbine buffer with a wolf xp rifle spring instead of using the rifle buffer. Since a carbine buffer is lighter than a rifle, it should prevent short stroking better. The only thing I don't know about is the difference in length of the buffers. Would it actually matter?
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:01:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
The only thing I don't know about is the difference in length of the buffers. Would it actually matter?



The buffer prevents the carrier key from impacting and destroying the lower receiver in the threaded area.

If you run too short a buffer, you can and probably will destroy your lower.

Have you gone through all the short stroke tests tacked at the top? Especially the 45 degree tilt test?

Something is not right with your rifle/mag combo. The stronger spring is only masking the problem.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:10:46 AM EST
Brand new D&H mags?
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:14:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 8:17:56 AM EST by jackal2001]
Well it is hard to nail down the exact cause. No I haven't seen the 45 degree test, i will look for that.

Anyway I have 2 ARs. A bushmaster M4 and this RRA rifle. The origional factory buffer spring would just not strip the first round out of a mag. Like I said I could have 5 rounds loaded in a 30 round mag and it wouldn't work. If I threw my carbine lower on the rifle I would have no problems. It has a vltor carbine stock on it and you can tell just by pulling the charging handle back that the cabine spring has more pull force than the standard rifle spring that is in the A2 stock. Although I couldn't manually feed the first round, the rifle would function fine when firing (after I got the first round to load).
I am using all D&H mags with magpul gen II followers. I have no issues with the mags in either weapon (like I said on the rifle -after the first round goes off).

It would be easy for me to solve the issue by just getting rid of the rifle stock and put on a collabsible stock of some kind like a LMT SOPMOD. I am sure that would work as well.

I am thinking that the factory spring was just a little too weak and the XP spring was just a little to strong. Maybe I should have ordered a wolff standard strenth spring.

Edit, just saw your "brand new D&H mag" thing and I know where you are going with that. I don't have any other mags to test. I have 25 mags and all are D&H. Even my factory Bushmaster mags are probably D&H.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:15:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
The buffer prevents the carrier key from impacting and destroying the lower receiver in the threaded area.

If you run too short a buffer, you can and probably will destroy your lower.



Yep - whoever told you to try that doesnt understand how the system works. Never run a carbine buffer in a rifle buffer tube. I dont care what kind of spring you have.


Something is not right with your rifle/mag combo. The stronger spring is only masking the problem.


I wouldnt jump that far.... several people have reported short stroking with a Wolff XP spring - it is, essentially, an out of spec part.

I would put your new factory buffer spring back in, and examine your mags for why they arent stripping correctly from the bolt release.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:18:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
I am using all D&H mags with magpul gen II followers. I have no issues with the mags in either weapon (like I said on the rifle -after the first round goes off).



That's what I thought.

Look in the mag forum, there is about 5 threads on this. Many of us have reported this with the D&H mags with gen2 magpuls. The feedlips are very sharp - and cause the rounds not to strip from the bolt release in some rifles. I got mine working well enough, but without question, I would concentrate on the mags, not the rifle.

They will loosen up the more you fire them. How many rounds do you have through these mags?
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:20:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 8:22:17 AM EST by jackal2001]
They are not stripping correctly because there isn't enough force. I had a ton of pics up before but had to take them down to make room.
The round actually strips half way out of the mag and is past the feed ramp going into the throat and stops. Nothing is stopping it, just pull back on the CH again and it will go.

Some of my 20rnds mags have been fully cycled about 20 times each. Some are still sitting in my closet never used.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:23:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
I am using all D&H mags with magpul gen II followers. I have no issues with the mags in either weapon (like I said on the rifle -after the first round goes off).



That's what I thought.

Look in the mag forum, there is about 5 threads on this. Many of us have reported this with the D&H mags with gen2 magpuls. The feedlips are very sharp - and cause the rounds not to strip from the bolt release in some rifles. I got mine working well enough, but without question, I would concentrate on the mags, not the rifle.

They will loosen up the more you fire them. How many rounds do you have through these mags?



The feedlips in question were all on the right side of the mags, at least when I saw the posts. I was loading 5 rounds into a mag which is loading the top round on the left side and I was having issues.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:58:25 AM EST
I had short stroking with the Wolff XP rifle action spring in the rifle tube.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:08:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
They are not stripping correctly because there isn't enough force.



This can come from not enough force int he buffer spring... OR - it requires too much force because the mag is holding onto the cartridge too tight.


I had a ton of pics up before but had to take them down to make room.
The round actually strips half way out of the mag and is past the feed ramp going into the throat and stops. Nothing is stopping it, just pull back on the CH again and it will go.



Yep - those are the exact symptoms posted by many of us. The round stops just as it enteres the barrel extension, because the bullet tip is being pushed into the bolt lug cutouts at the top of the feedramp.


Some of my 20rnds mags have been fully cycled about 20 times each. Some are still sitting in my closet never used.


Have you tried any know quality USGI 20 or 30 rounds mags?
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 12:34:38 PM EST
I don't have any other mags to test for now. I would hate to think after spending over $300 on mags that they are all problematic.
Everyone was raving about these mags because they were on the old labell tooling and were top quality, etc etc, and now people complain about them.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 12:44:27 PM EST
Read the threads in the mag forum, do your own testing, and make your own decisions.

I spent over a grand on these mags.

Ultimately, I had the problems, but not to such a degree that I would return them. Mine, like yours, fire just fine. But the fail to strip from the bolt catch is the symptom, and sharp feedlips have been noted. Personally, I'd just keep shooting them, and I bet they will work themselves out.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 3:19:12 PM EST
here is one pic

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 3:24:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I had short stroking with the Wolff XP rifle action spring in the rifle tube.



It is pretty common for these Wolff XP springs to cause problems. They are simply too stiff. I have 2 sitting in my parts collection if anyone wants them (not free). Less than a hundred rounds and I am done with them.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 4:13:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
here is one pic

users.rcn.com/thejackal/guns/ftf.jpg



And I can see the significant scratch on the brass in that pic - from the feedlip.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 4:31:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 4:48:36 PM EST by jackal2001]
Yes some of my brass along with the bullet tips have scratches on them when I try and hand cycle through a mag. So you are saying every one of my mags is the issue?

If so name a good mag to get.

Oh and by the way I wouldn't go by that round because numerous rounds were loaded over and over again for testing.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:42:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
Yes some of my brass along with the bullet tips have scratches on them when I try and hand cycle through a mag. So you are saying every one of my mags is the issue?



Not saying they are defective - just that it has been fairly well established the current D&H stuff is coming with a sharp feedlip, which is holding the round lond stiffer and longer than other USGI's, causing the failure you are seeing when hand cycling ammo from the bolt release. They will get better with time and use. Or - you can debur them like the thread in the mag forum suggests.


If so name a good mag to get.


For reliability testing? Any good quality USGI, like Okay, Center, Adventureline, Sanchez, etc. For match shooting - I only use Colt/Adventureline USGI 20 rounders with the aluminum followers.


Oh and by the way I wouldn't go by that round because numerous rounds were loaded over and over again for testing.


That scratch is indicative of a sharp feedlip.... Once cycled, or many.... doesnt matter. By the time I FIRED a magful... it was already scratching the brass less, because the feedlip was breaking in.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:13:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
I don't have any other mags to test for now.



Do you have another non-Wolff buffer spring to test with? If not, buy one, as recommended by myself and others in this thread. Only then can you start to troubleshoot your problem.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:30:20 AM EST
Well I could buy one but which one?

Chrome silicon, wolf standard, usgi standard, etc???

what and where?
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:46:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 6:48:33 AM EST by sovereign]

Originally Posted By jackal2001:
Well I could buy one but which one?

Chrome silicon, wolf standard, usgi standard, etc???

what and where?



I would go ISMI or USGI. All I have is USGI, but Grant at G&R swears by the new ISMI springs and says that they are NOT "extra power" so I would maybe give one a try. Of course, he does sell them so...

ETA: Probably any dealer in the EE sells USGI buffer springs for cheap. You'll have to ask though as most dealers don't list every single part, even on their websites.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 7:06:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 7:36:04 AM EST by jackal2001]
someone elses post in the ismi thread:
Range report of the new ISMI spring in my LMT/RRA carbine:

My 75gr defensive ammo worked great right off the bat. Bolt locked back and everything.

My 55gr Wolf however didn't go 100% for about 100 rounds. The bolt wouldn't lock back and often the bolt didn't go back far enough to strip a new round off the mag.

I hand cycled the bolt about 60-70 times to weaken the spring a bit and I oiled up the bolt better. I then fired another 200 rounds of the Wolf wthout malfunction.

So basically it needs to be cycled about 100-150 times in order to run the low power Wolf good.

I am happy with it since it is more powerful than my old spring that came with my RRA. That RRA spring couldn't strip the top round on a fully loaded 30 round mag because it wasn't powerful enough. The ISMI spring can.



I am going to try the ISMI spring. I also ordered 3 SS mags from CProducts, since now everyone is saying how good these are.
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 1:39:16 PM EST
i have the RRA stock spring in my rifle
it wont strip the top round out of a heavily used usgi 30 round mag
and really wont do it from my new cproducts mags
its not the mags the RRA stock spring is weak, even on half full mags it strips rounds like its in slow motion
i am looking for a stiffer spring, but no so stiff that i will have issues with lighter rounds
i have looked at the ISMI spring and it looks like its the happy medium

i mainly shoot 55gr rounds for paper punching at the range or 68-77gr for when i want to get down and dirty depending on what im doing, i am still searching for what this barrel likes best

who has the best price on the ismi spring?
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 9:38:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_will:

who has the best price on the ismi spring?



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