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Posted: 8/4/2005 8:51:30 PM EDT
When loading a magazine, push it in firmly, pull down to make sure it is secure in the mag well, and run the bolt catch with the palm of your hand.

Any questions?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:59:10 PM EDT
Can you run that by me again? I'm a slow learner.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:00:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By I_H_R:
Can you run that by me again? I'm a slow learner.



I only posted this 8 minutes ago. You should have given it at least a day to sink in. Post whore.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:03:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:05:36 PM EDT
Another member told a story in another thread about losing a magazine while working the charging handle. Thats why you pull down. Using this method, you won't mess up a mag change.

And it's a little bit of an inside joke.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:27:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:07:27 AM EDT
yep
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:36:05 AM EDT
Slap mag, Tug Mag, Push Bolt Catch.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:09:28 AM EDT
Nope, it's not slap and tug, it's push/pull. We did cover this, correct?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:46:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 5:46:24 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By modog:
Nope, it's not slap and tug, it's push/pull. We did cover this, correct?



Slap it like you hate it. Never had a problem. Maybe your follower-fu is weak?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:12:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 6:14:36 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Slap mag, Tug Mag, Push Bolt Catch.



Do that while holding your muzzle and eyes on target. It isn't that easy.

That's where the distinct difference in opinion comes from. You can only get so much "push" when you're holding the muzzle on target and reloading at the same time. That's where the downloaded mag comes into play. Not everybody has the luxury to turn the rifle upside down and "slap the mag like a bitch". And if you're slapping the mag hard while holding your muzzle on target, what's the chances of holding the muzzle on target??

The pull comes in to make sure that you mag seated correctly. But remember to pull straight down. As I found out, if in a rush, you combine a tight mag with a slight pull back, rather than down, you get [Pat R.]Is that my mag on th deck there??[Pat R.]. You also get, in front of the whole shooting relay [Pat R.]Did we cover push/pull yet today???? We did???? Would you remind this shooter that we did!![Pat R.].


IMO, the two sides of this argument shows me who are the bench shooters/plinkers and who isn't.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:59:36 AM EDT
Well said, Mongo. You should have a chance to practice again next summer (I've been in touch with the Infidel).
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:25:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Another member told a story in another thread about losing a magazine while working the charging handle. Thats why you pull down. Using this method, you won't mess up a mag change.

And it's a little bit of an inside joke.



I thought he was loading it in with a closed bolt and a round in the chamber, I'm still wondering why he was working the bolt. Maybe IRIC and it wasn't on a closed bolt with round in the chamber though. I mentioned that in the thread though. Thats why you give a tug on the mag to make sure it's seated.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:36:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Another member told a story in another thread about losing a magazine while working the charging handle. Thats why you pull down. Using this method, you won't mess up a mag change.

And it's a little bit of an inside joke.



Happened to me with my AR180 once......AND ONLY ONCE. You see, I should know better and, of course, it happened in front of God and Country who all knew that I knew better......

needless to say it WON'T happen again!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:37:18 AM EDT
So to sum it up:

If the bolt is back you push and pull,
If the bolt is forward, you push and slap the magazine?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:40:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Slap mag, Tug Mag, Push Bolt Catch.



Do that while holding your muzzle and eyes on target. It isn't that easy.

That's where the distinct difference in opinion comes from. You can only get so much "push" when you're holding the muzzle on target and reloading at the same time. That's where the downloaded mag comes into play. Not everybody has the luxury to turn the rifle upside down and "slap the mag like a bitch". And if you're slapping the mag hard while holding your muzzle on target, what's the chances of holding the muzzle on target??

The pull comes in to make sure that you mag seated correctly. But remember to pull straight down. As I found out, if in a rush, you combine a tight mag with a slight pull back, rather than down, you get [Pat R.]Is that my mag on th deck there??[Pat R.]. You also get, in front of the whole shooting relay [Pat R.]Did we cover push/pull yet today???? We did???? Would you remind this shooter that we did!![Pat R.].


IMO, the two sides of this argument shows me who are the bench shooters/plinkers and who isn't.




I have to disagree and agree First off I;ve never seen somone beable to keep their gun "ontarget" while changing a mag, general direction yes, on totaly at all times, never. I proved that to a guy once at my club by making him show me that his rifle never ventured off target while he did a mag change. We did that by puting a laser on his gun, guess how much that laser moved around and guess how many times in the whole deal it came off target, a good many. But it was always in the general direction of the target. Just not always ON it.

I don't slap at my mags persay when I reload. I push them in hear the click and then tap the bottom and give a pull(straight down is really important). I can keep my gun up tword the target when need be, but generaly I'd prefer to re-load behind cover, which means you are not going to have that gun pointed at or in the general direction of the target nesesarily. Now there are times when you don't have the cover to re-load behind and then all of this(gun on/tword target) would come into play.

Down loaded mag or not putting a new mag in a gun while it's up and pointing tword the target your going to get movment in the gun, BTDT, I don't download my mags because I have not run into a problem loading them on a closed bolt. When I start having that issue, then I'll start down loading my mags. Until then no point in doing it at least not to me.

And I'm no bench shooter/plinker. 90% of my shooting is running through drills learned in classes. The only time I bench shoot is when I want a relaxing day at the range with the bolt guns(and even then I tend to shoot prone), or if I'm sighting something in. We all do things differently and issues for some folks are not issues for others. To each his own. Don't mean I don't agree with you, just means I agree with only some of it.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
When loading a magazine, push it in firmly, pull down to make sure it is secure in the mag well, and run the bolt catch with the palm of your hand.

Any questions?




No, but I didn't ask this anyway......
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:00:27 AM EDT
PUSH... up until it "clicks"

PULL... down to be sure it is locked into place

The hand does not leave the magazine until it is firmly set in place



I have seen push up... move hand to "slap" it... when hand comes off the magazine ...
next thing seen was a magazine land at the students feet!



King's X..... time out! I dropped my magazine!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:15:33 AM EDT
In my opinion, the keep the muzzle on target idea is flawed. Just track the target as you do whatever you need to do with the weapon, then engage as necessary.

When you reload or fix a malfunction with the pistol, what do you do? Hopefully you bend the strong hand elbow to get the pistol into your work space(in front of you slightly below eyes) and get it debugged. Nothing changes with the carbine. Think about it, what position are you in once you put your support hand back onto the weapon?(pistol or carbine)--high ready-how many times did you aquire a target from high ready and engage it?

Economy in motion, keep things simple and utilize that to the best of your ability. A to B in a straight line.

Besides, if you are reloading, whatever, shouldn't you be moving or using cover as you do this?


Plus on the push pull
Mark
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 8:27:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:14:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:17:33 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Slap mag, Tug Mag, Push Bolt Catch.



Do that while holding your muzzle and eyes on target. It isn't that easy.

That's where the distinct difference in opinion comes from. You can only get so much "push" when you're holding the muzzle on target and reloading at the same time. That's where the downloaded mag comes into play. Not everybody has the luxury to turn the rifle upside down and "slap the mag like a bitch". And if you're slapping the mag hard while holding your muzzle on target, what's the chances of holding the muzzle on target??

The pull comes in to make sure that you mag seated correctly. But remember to pull straight down. As I found out, if in a rush, you combine a tight mag with a slight pull back, rather than down, you get [Pat R.]Is that my mag on th deck there??[Pat R.]. You also get, in front of the whole shooting relay [Pat R.]Did we cover push/pull yet today???? We did???? Would you remind this shooter that we did!![Pat R.].


IMO, the two sides of this argument shows me who are the bench shooters/plinkers and who isn't.




I have to disagree and agree First off I;ve never seen somone beable to keep their gun "ontarget" while changing a mag, general direction yes, on totaly at all times, never. I proved that to a guy once at my club by making him show me that his rifle never ventured off target while he did a mag change. We did that by puting a laser on his gun, guess how much that laser moved around and guess how many times in the whole deal it came off target, a good many. But it was always in the general direction of the target. Just not always ON it.

I don't slap at my mags persay when I reload. I push them in hear the click and then tap the bottom and give a pull(straight down is really important). I can keep my gun up tword the target when need be, but generaly I'd prefer to re-load behind cover, which means you are not going to have that gun pointed at or in the general direction of the target nesesarily. Now there are times when you don't have the cover to re-load behind and then all of this(gun on/tword target) would come into play.

Down loaded mag or not putting a new mag in a gun while it's up and pointing tword the target your going to get movment in the gun, BTDT, I don't download my mags because I have not run into a problem loading them on a closed bolt. When I start having that issue, then I'll start down loading my mags. Until then no point in doing it at least not to me.

And I'm no bench shooter/plinker. 90% of my shooting is running through drills learned in classes. The only time I bench shoot is when I want a relaxing day at the range with the bolt guns(and even then I tend to shoot prone), or if I'm sighting something in. We all do things differently and issues for some folks are not issues for others. To each his own. Don't mean I don't agree with you, just means I agree with only some of it.



Ok, how's this: Reload while keeping the muzzle in the general direction of the "threat", if things are going to be interpreted literally.

My experience has been pretty much this: With a standard GI mag loaded with thirty rounds, insertion while "keeping the muzzle in the general direction of the threat" is inconsistent at best using push/pull and no slap. The slap is a waste of motion, IMO, both in the time it takes to actually do the slap and the time it takes to get back on target.

Downloading greatly increases the chance of a successful push/pull without undo effort or time.

Same with my modified mags with Wolff springs and Magpul stuff, except I go to 27.

Obviously, YMMV, but why risk a bad reload when downloading is so easy and presents almost no risk. If you think you'll miss those two or three rounds, you need to find a new line of work or a new hobby.

For the 0.0000000000000000001% chance that I will ever need a successful push/pull, I'll download to give myself a better chance. I'd rather have a better chance 26 rounds in the mag an one in the chamber than one in the chamber and 29 on the deck. Once again, YMMV.

Hey Resq47, do you remember how many mags Pat said hit the deck on day one? Wasn't it like eighty or some grossly large number like that???? I know I can account for three. That's when I decided to download my mags to 27 vs. 28 (mags are USGI bodies with new Wolff springs, Magpul follower and Ranger plate).
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:25:47 AM EDT
Push pull it is. Do it in one motion, insert the mag and pull down as you are taking your hand off. The slap is a waste of time.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:26:49 AM EDT
Insert mag, pull mag, charge, tap fwd assist, check sights.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:30:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:31:42 AM EDT by olds442tyguy]
I use the push and pull method, but my hand never loses contact with the mag. As for slapping it, have fun. I did that once and ended up slapping an empty mag well opening. I was glad no one saw. I'm sure slapping works for some, but I still prefer the other way.

ETA: Exactly like the man above me said.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:04:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Slap mag, Tug Mag, Push Bolt Catch.



Do that while holding your muzzle and eyes on target. It isn't that easy.

That's where the distinct difference in opinion comes from. You can only get so much "push" when you're holding the muzzle on target and reloading at the same time. That's where the downloaded mag comes into play. Not everybody has the luxury to turn the rifle upside down and "slap the mag like a bitch". And if you're slapping the mag hard while holding your muzzle on target, what's the chances of holding the muzzle on target??

The pull comes in to make sure that you mag seated correctly. But remember to pull straight down. As I found out, if in a rush, you combine a tight mag with a slight pull back, rather than down, you get [Pat R.]Is that my mag on th deck there??[Pat R.]. You also get, in front of the whole shooting relay [Pat R.]Did we cover push/pull yet today???? We did???? Would you remind this shooter that we did!![Pat R.].


IMO, the two sides of this argument shows me who are the bench shooters/plinkers and who isn't.




You should not have a target to be holding on if your tac loading. IMO your O is incorrect. Tac reloads by definition have the luxury of not being "on target"
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:47:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:32:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Hey Resq47, do you remember how many mags Pat said hit the deck on day one? Wasn't it like eighty or some grossly large number like that???? I know I can account for three. That's when I decided to download my mags to 27 vs. 28 (mags are USGI bodies with new Wolff springs, Magpul follower and Ranger plate).



I don't remember exactly, but it was a bunch. I didn't drop any, but I've learned by observation about making obvious errors from prior training and work very hard to avoid them. I had an instructor that would tape your weapon to your hand if you removed it from a firing grip (while in scenario). I really didn't want to eat lunch with a G22 in my main paw, so I paid attention (plus it is bad practice)...

Further on the download - I don't know exactly what I loaded to (USGI w/ranger plates), but it was basically two rounds less than FULL. Good luck loading a FULL mag without abusing it (slap) on a closed bolt. Now that I'm fully equipped with magpul followers & ranger plates I've picked up a round as they play well together. I haven't dropped a mag, but I have tossed them if they won't seat.

On slapping mags, I have anecdotal evidence of somebody that just didn't get it that slapped a mag, causing the feedlips to fail, dumping 30rounds into the chamber volcano style. By all means, I'd like to see that happen first hand (to somebody else) so please continue slapping things if that's your thing.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:34:25 PM EDT
Originally posted by Devl


You should not have a target to be holding on if your tac loading. IMO your O is incorrect. Tac reloads by definition have the luxury of not being "on target"



+ 1 . Your reloading because YOU want to, not because YOU have to.....

As a recent Recipient of the Infamous "Moosecock" award for Not employing the Push/pull Technuque I can tell you it is the best technique going. Slapping does not validate that the Mag is secured, it's a technique that may casue the mag to Bounce and partially engage the mag catch to the the mag. The bounce is further Magnified by loading to 30 and trying this on a closed bolt..

Load 30 and slap away if you want, but there's a better technique then that. like anything ya can't make a pig sing... and most guys will never shoot enough to ever realize their current technique is flawed and outdated...
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:39:06 PM EDT
I don't fully load my mags and slap the crap out of the bottom upon insertion.

I haven't dropped a loaded mag, or broken anything yet.

YMMV.

Danny

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 9:07:46 AM EDT
I have a few questions.

How can slapping a magazine damage feed lips of the magazine? I am not seeing how this could happen.

Why are you guys resistant to pulling on your inserted magazine to ensure its loaded during a tatical reload? Whether you slap or dont or load to 28 or 30 it ensures it is seated and time is not critical, since there is not shooting going on nor any target in front of you and you are behind cover. I push my forward assist when I initally charge my weapon for this reason. I dont see a draw back and its a just in case type of thing.

Why is it considered that swapping a time critical factor to the 28 loaders to get the mag in seamlessly and quickly during a tac reload yet being forced to reload when fighting to lock back its OK to be downloaded ond come up short? I see it as tac reloads being done when there is not shooting and no threat. Shooting to lock back is when there is shooting and high risk of your life when every second and every round counts. Why is shooting to lock back and coming up 2 rounds short OK but taking an extra second to load a 30 round mag during a non shooting time frame instead of a 28 not OK? Essentially it sounds like you are saying its worth it to come up dry on round 28 in a fierce fire fight because its more dangerous to be mesing with a 30 during a tac reload behind cover. This makes no sense to me at all.

I can certainly see 28 rounds in a mag for 3 gun as you can omit the pull on the mag to save time and it is much easier to load. This results in faster times.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 9:43:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Why is it considered that swapping a time critical factor to the 28 loaders to get the mag in seamlessly and quickly during a tac reload yet being forced to reload when fighting to lock back its OK to be downloaded ond come up short? I see it as tac reloads being done when there is not shooting and no threat. Shooting to lock back is when there is shooting and high risk of your life when every second and every round counts. Why is shooting to lock back and coming up 2 rounds short OK but taking an extra second to load a 30 round mag during a non shooting time frame instead of a 28 not OK? Essentially it sounds like you are saying its worth it to come up dry on round 28 in a fierce fire fight because its more dangerous to be mesing with a 30 during a tac reload behind cover. This makes no sense to me at all.

I can certainly see 28 rounds in a mag for 3 gun as you can omit the pull on the mag to save time and it is much easier to load. This results in faster times.



The "one short" argument doesn't hold water, IMO. I can't count rounds in competition nor training and I'm damn sure I couldn't during a firefight, so the point is moot. If you are counting rounds, you're doing something wrong. Those aren't my words, either. In class, we were taught push/pull with the muzzle in the direction of the threat, so that's what I practice.

"OH, DAMN, there's 30 Tangos and I'm downloaded to 28!!!! Whatever will I do????"

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:02:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Why is it considered that swapping a time critical factor to the 28 loaders to get the mag in seamlessly and quickly during a tac reload yet being forced to reload when fighting to lock back its OK to be downloaded ond come up short? I see it as tac reloads being done when there is not shooting and no threat. Shooting to lock back is when there is shooting and high risk of your life when every second and every round counts. Why is shooting to lock back and coming up 2 rounds short OK but taking an extra second to load a 30 round mag during a non shooting time frame instead of a 28 not OK? Essentially it sounds like you are saying its worth it to come up dry on round 28 in a fierce fire fight because its more dangerous to be mesing with a 30 during a tac reload behind cover. This makes no sense to me at all.

I can certainly see 28 rounds in a mag for 3 gun as you can omit the pull on the mag to save time and it is much easier to load. This results in faster times.



The "one short" argument doesn't hold water, IMO. I can't count rounds in competition nor training and I'm damn sure I couldn't during a firefight, so the point is moot. If you are counting rounds, you're doing something wrong. Those aren't my words, either. In class, we were taught push/pull with the muzzle in the direction of the threat, so that's what I practice.

"OH, DAMN, there's 30 Tangos and I'm downloaded to 28!!!! Whatever will I do????"




No I am saying you are engaging someone and fighting to LOCKBACK. You are NOT counting. Then you pull the trigger and the gun is empty. You now have to reload instead of shooting the bad guy with 2 more rounds. It is better to reload when 10 feet from a guy who is shooting at you instead of shooting 2 more times before running dry. This is because you were able to tac reload a second faster (due to a 28 round tac reload instead of a 30) when there was no shooting going on. It is far more important to tac reload quickly than it is to shoot at the bad guy who is shooting at you who is 10 feet in front of you. This is what you are saying. This makes no sense to me.

This is identical to saying if you could load a 20 round magazine faster than 30 during a tac reload (when there is no threat and you are behind cover) but loaded both the 20 and 30 at the same speed during a speed reload, that you should tac reload with the 20. It is far better to tac reload faster from safety and to run out of rounds in your magazine during a firefight because runnig out of ammo when fighting to lock back is a much safer situation than a tac reload. This obviously makes no sense. Only difference is 2 rounds instead of 10 in that example.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:26:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
No I am saying you are engaging someone and fighting to LOCKBACK. You are NOT counting.



During the class, it was discouraged to shoot to LOCKBACK. People were constantly being yelled at for LOCKBACK. Once again, you are talking about things that are contrary to what some of the top trainers [cough]Pat Rogers[/cough] put out in their classes.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By DevL:
No I am saying you are engaging someone and fighting to LOCKBACK. You are NOT counting.



During the class, it was discouraged to shoot to LOCKBACK. People were constantly being yelled at for LOCKBACK. Once again, you are talking about things that are contrary to what some of the top trainers [cough]Pat Rogers[/cough] put out in their classes.


For what it's worth, SigArms Academy sings from the exact same hymnal.

Shooting to lockback was a great way to get "horned"

A couple of the instructors there are downright demonic, and earned the nickname "Horns". Getting horned meant being singled out when you fucked up.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:42:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
A couple of the instructors there are downright demonic, and earned the nickname "Horns". Getting horned meant being singled out when you fucked up.



Simliarly, I got "Rogered" when I was having my little episode with push/pull. Just about everybody on Relay 1 knew I had an issue with it.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:37:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I have a few questions.

How can slapping a magazine damage feed lips of the magazine? I am not seeing how this could happen.

Why are you guys resistant to pulling on your inserted magazine to ensure its loaded during a tatical reload? Whether you slap or dont or load to 28 or 30 it ensures it is seated and time is not critical, since there is not shooting going on nor any target in front of you and you are behind cover. I push my forward assist when I initally charge my weapon for this reason. I dont see a draw back and its a just in case type of thing.

Why is it considered that swapping a time critical factor to the 28 loaders to get the mag in seamlessly and quickly during a tac reload yet being forced to reload when fighting to lock back its OK to be downloaded ond come up short? I see it as tac reloads being done when there is not shooting and no threat. Shooting to lock back is when there is shooting and high risk of your life when every second and every round counts. Why is shooting to lock back and coming up 2 rounds short OK but taking an extra second to load a 30 round mag during a non shooting time frame instead of a 28 not OK? Essentially it sounds like you are saying its worth it to come up dry on round 28 in a fierce fire fight because its more dangerous to be mesing with a 30 during a tac reload behind cover. This makes no sense to me at all.

I can certainly see 28 rounds in a mag for 3 gun as you can omit the pull on the mag to save time and it is much easier to load. This results in faster times.



FIRST QUESTION. About 15 years ago during a high threat trial I loaned a coworker a new, hard to find, expensive, personally owned Colt 30 round magazine. He used a SP1, I used a HK91. The office did not have but a few 20 round magazines. Being the weight lifter mentality... strength and force fixes everything type... I was careful to instruct him to load no more than 30 rounds in the magazine. He forced 31 rounds into the magazine... then when it would not seat on a closed bolt... he used the bash the bottom of the magazine until it seats method. This caused the rounds in the magazine to pick the path of least resistance... outward movement splitting the magazine body. When he cleared the weapon and pulled the magazine... as soon as it was removed from the weapon it looked like a ammo fountain... spewing ammo in a beautiful arc. He had busted the top spotwelds on the magazine body, as there was enough room in the mag well for the mag body to be forced out to break the spot welds. If he would have tried to chamber a round... there could have been only one of us with a functional weapon.

SECOND QUESTION. To many it is all about speed, and nothing else matter. If they do not pull down... they save a 1/4 second (give or take). They think if they skip pulling down that is time they don’t have to consume. They are resistant because to them it is a waste of time... to others they think they are so infallible they don’t need to do it, the rest of us just don’t realize how good they are (in their mind) and don’t understand why we waste our time pulling. Nice theory, and some or even most times they can get away with it. If it is fun shooting the worse case is they boo boo or are embarrassed, or a match is lost. Paper, steel and cardboard does not shoot back... so speed is the primary goal. In the real world, where there is shooting back... such a boo boo might be the very last mistake one ever makes. So... for the casual shooter, they will skip the pull and some will even make fun of others who don’t do as they do. For serious shooters or those who want to use serious type techniques... the push pull method is the only way. Do what fits your life. If you are a real world shooter... you need to push pull!

THIRD QUESTION. Loading a magazine on a closed bolt nearly bottoms out the follower and further compresses the spring. The HK/SAS method on the MP5 is to load with the bolt locked back on any load... tactical or emergency. In that case there is not enough room to further compress the follower on a 30 round magazine. It is taught that it is better to toss a live round out of the chamber than fail to seat a magazine (The MP5 does not lock back on the last round fired.) Every reload in this method chambers a round out of the fresh magazine. Doing a tactical reload and assuming there is a round in the chamber, or having a magazine at your feet that did not seat on a tactical reload is unacceptable. This solution for the MP5 may toss a live round, but that is better than a click when you need it to go bang! AR15/M16 is a different animal in this case.

One way to allow more room for the follower to further compress the spring to ensure seating a magazine on a closed bolt (tactical reload) it to down load the magazine 1 or 2 rounds. It is common to assume a round is in the chamber if the weapon did not lock-back. A concession is made by loading down... this allows an operator to do a tactical reload with greater reliability and quicker. Not having to over compress a fully compressed magazine spring. Yes the magazine has ONLY 28 rounds in it... but it has been proven that a 28 round magazine properly locked in the magazine well feeds dramatically better than a 30 round magazine laying on the ground at your feet! Shooting to lock-back is... in stealing a phrase from Martha Stewart... not a good thing. Being the only guy with an empty weapon in a firefight is very undesirable! Yes, it happens. There are times when it can’t be avoided. BUT, it is not something that is tactically sound when it can be avoided. I’d rather have tactically reloaded when I could, then deal with a lock-back facing a threat. You learn to control what you can... and manipulate the odds in your favor when it is possible. So giving up two rounds in a magazine is the balance point for best tactical preparedness for this weapon platform

BASIC POINT. It all comes down to what type of shooting you do. For fun, you can take all the time you need for reloads. For USPSA/IPSC, time is a factor... you can afford to stand out in the middle of everything and take every time saving shortcut to help shoot a high score. For IDPA, you can fudge a bit even though you want to use cover... as nothing shoots back. Paintball and such the same... as on laundry day all mistakes in tactics go away in the washing machine. There is shooting back... but paint has low lethality. Odds are VERY low of death. Protective gear prevents injury. Mess up... you still go home and can show for the next “battle” with clothing free of paint from last match mistakes.

In real world, time and mistakes can cost a life. No do over, no ribbing by your buddys, no paint blobs, no start overs, no do better in the next match. You may only have one chance to do it fast and correct. Blood replaces paint... and no washing machine can make the marks on the clothing go away, no end of conflict allows all parties to stand and walk back to the safe area. Good techniques and tactics are a must... and even with that, there is no guarantee you get to walk away afterwards! However... you set your odds as best you can on things you do have control over.

Most on this board will never have to deal with incoming small arms fire. There are a real number of persons who will at some point deal with incoming small arms fire... who also post on this board. Pick which you are... and manage reloading to fit your need.

Push pull!
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:"OH, DAMN, there's 30 Tangos and I'm downloaded to 28!!!! Whatever will I do????"



Roadhouse Rules? Nobody gets seconds 'til everyone is served and then transition to your blaster.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:54:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DasRonin:
So giving up two rounds in a magazine is the balance point for best tactical preparedness for this weapon platform.



Damn, there's the words I couldn't put together. It couldn't be said any better.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 3:06:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 3:10:13 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
When loading a magazine, push it in firmly, pull down to make sure it is secure in the mag well, and run the bolt catch with the palm of your hand.

Any questions?



Pretty much the way I learned

Insert mag, slap mag, tug mag, run bolt catch with palm, thumb forward assist, acquire, and shoot.

The hand shouldnt leave the mag until you're certain it is secure

Mags downloaded to 27-28 for faster and more secure insertion

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:06:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 7:02:10 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]
Yep.

That's how I drill as well.

Release the mag while dropping to a kneeling position(alternate), all while keeping the weapon pointed in the direction of the "Threat". Insert another mag with your index finger on the front of the spine, pull down, then slap the bolt release and re-engage targets.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:40:28 PM EDT
Tagged for later
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 4:41:17 PM EDT
Tagged for later
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 5:14:42 PM EDT
Mongo, for some reason the #s 6 &8 stick out in my mind. I think it was either 68 or 86. It was a ridiculous amount, to be sure.

Down loading plush push/pull works. You can't count on "clicks" to ensure your mag is seated. You must push firmly, then pull firmly, to ensure proper seating of mags in the AR platform. I am certain that if the nonbelievers were to have participated with us, they would have had an epiphany.

Do what you do. But realize there are those in this World that have seen more, trained better shooters, and conditioned better fighters than you. Through this they have gained wisdom. Wisdom that they share at a very low cost, simply because they appreciate people that fight for their rights, love their freedom, and want to be the best fighter they can be. Scoff in their faces if you like. I prefer to fight alongside them and gain wisdom from them without having to make all of the mistakes for myself.

damian@adcofirearms.com
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 5:47:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:10:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
No I am saying you are engaging someone and fighting to LOCKBACK. You are NOT counting. Then you pull the trigger and the gun is empty. You now have to reload instead of shooting the bad guy with 2 more rounds. It is better to reload when 10 feet from a guy who is shooting at you instead of shooting 2 more times before running dry. This is because you were able to tac reload a second faster (due to a 28 round tac reload instead of a 30) when there was no shooting going on. It is far more important to tac reload quickly than it is to shoot at the bad guy who is shooting at you who is 10 feet in front of you. This is what you are saying. This makes no sense to me.

This is identical to saying if you could load a 20 round magazine faster than 30 during a tac reload (when there is no threat and you are behind cover) but loaded both the 20 and 30 at the same speed during a speed reload, that you should tac reload with the 20. It is far better to tac reload faster from safety and to run out of rounds in your magazine during a firefight because runnig out of ammo when fighting to lock back is a much safer situation than a tac reload. This obviously makes no sense. Only difference is 2 rounds instead of 10 in that example.



It is unlikely that 2 rounds is going to make a difference. What WOULD make a difference is when you try to change a mag, but you can't get the fucker to stay in the mag well because you have 30 rounds in it and it won't seat--then Hadji walks around the corner and you have 1 round in the rifle. I have a few mags that when loaded to 30 need to be inserted into the rifle, then have the rifle slammed down onto a hard surface with both hands to get it to click in. 28 rounds, no problem.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:12:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
When loading a magazine, push it in firmly, pull down to make sure it is secure in the mag well, and run the bolt catch with the palm of your hand.

Any questions?



Pretty much the way I learned

Insert mag, slap mag, tug mag, run bolt catch with palm, thumb forward assist, acquire, and shoot.

The hand shouldnt leave the mag until you're certain it is secure

Mags downloaded to 27-28 for faster and more secure insertion




Not bad, but you have some extra steps in there. You shouldn't have to slap it. Push in firmly, don't slap it unless you're having difficulty seating it. Thats faster. Also, when slapping the bolt, the carrier should ride home every time, so its not really necessary to use the forward assist.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:13:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 6:38:00 PM EDT by Kal-El]
this is why i only load 1 round in my mags and i have 30 mags, this way im really fast
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:43:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Nothing worse than hearing: BANG, CLICK, THUMP (as mag falls out of weapon onto ground).



C4



Especially when there is a certain Irishman smacking you on the back of the head for it
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:40:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 7:46:07 PM EDT by WesDesRat]

Originally Posted By mongo001:
"OH, DAMN, there's 30 Tangos and I'm downloaded to 28!!!! Whatever will I do????"




Line them up and hope that particualar 77gr SMK was built like a tank and dosn't fragment?

Good post BTW...

I do have a question.. I noticed when loading a single round in a USGI 30 and slapping (more of a hard push instertion) the mag in with a locked back bolt, one of my mags would lose the round. The feed lips show little wear and no cracks, but it is an old mag, old spring and green follower. This dosnt really apply exactly to the topic, but forgive the short hijack, and give me a yes or no answer:

Would this be normal with a newer mag/spring? (ETA: this isn't a "go to" mag...just happend when I was out practicing one day. And I forgot to make the "single" part clear)

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:49:51 PM EDT
I don't normally load single rounds--dont know that I ever have--but I would be concerned. Is there any evidence that the feed lips have spread? I have had some that were badly worn and flexed easily, but were not cracked.
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