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Page AR-15 » AR-15 / M-16 Retro Forum
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 8/2/2015 10:37:15 AM EDT
I'm very interested in prototype serial numbers 5, 9 and 10. The attached thread shows 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 22 and 27. It is a great prototype resource in the archives. I'm researching and idea gathering for my own prototype build.

I know all early prototype versions used the Bakelite grips, so I am good there. I see that the earliest versions had black glass weaved mat type A stocks and one piece hand guards with black glass weaved mat finish. You can see that they switched to brown weave mat next. After that, you can see the different mix and match sets, styles and the shift to slip rings. I am wondering if they ever tried the one piece hand guards in the brown 601 flake glass type material?

I remember reading about a member that had the brown weaved mat look dipped onto his stock and one piece hand guard. I believe it was Morg that suggested to him to darken them up with brown shoe polish to get the color right, which I believe he did. Very nice out come and look on that clone.

I have an original brown type A stock and a brown Bakelite grip I intend on using on my version of the prototype type. I also have a 601 hand guard, a set of two piece NDS prototype hand guards (with heat shields and painted to match the brown) and a prototype one piece hand guard with only top and bottom holes built by JT. The one piece is unfinished at this time. It was my intention to use the brown furniture and paint the one piece hand guard to match the brown glass flake finish. Now I am second guessing my self.

I know a prototype clone is just that, a clone. It can never be "perfect" and the builder goes for a "look" they have in mind. With so much data, I think I lost my vision... Any thoughts on using the brown type A stock, then going brown 601 flake finish on the one piece hand guard? Will it look "wrong" on a prototype? Does anyone know what years the brown flake type A stock was first used?

As a side note, I was thinking of using the 000005 number for my lower engraving. I don't know of any pictures of number 5 being around. This would give me some wiggle room on what would be correctly documented for that serial number.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=634263
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 12:46:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I see that the earliest versions had black glass weaved mat type A stocks and one piece hand guards with black glass weaved mat finish. You can see that they switched to brown weave mat next. After that, you can see the different mix and match sets, styles and the shift to slip rings. I am wondering if they ever tried the one piece hand guards in the brown 601 flake glass type material?
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Don't let the photos fool you, the woven furniture is red-brown; it just tends to photograph as black, or near black. Just like the 601 green paint, it's very hard to accurately capture because of how it appears under different types of lighting.

The other handguard prototypes could have been made from anything really; most likely wood or other types of composite. The first set of triangle handguards show up on #4 in it's 2nd rebuilt configuration and, are used for Colt's early promo brochure. They were wooden prototypes painted in a red brown color. The first bakelite versions likely didn't appear until production of the 601s.


I know a prototype clone is just that, a clone. It can never be "perfect" and the builder goes for a "look" they have in mind. With so much data, I think I lost my vision... Any thoughts on using the brown type A stock, then going brown 601 flake finish on the one piece hand guard? Will it look "wrong" on a prototype? Does anyone know what years the brown flake type A stock was first used?

As a side note, I was thinking of using the 000005 number for my lower engraving. I don't know of any pictures of number 5 being around. This would give me some wiggle room on what would be correctly documented for that serial number.
View Quote


No reason you couldn't use the bakelite style finish. "Officially", it probably didn't show up until late 1959/1960 after Colt bought the platform but, they did so many one off builds trying to appease different interested parties that anything could have shown up. I think others have made similar clones in the past and they look really nice.

As far as I know, your right about there being no photo's of #5. I haven't found it in any of the test documents either so, who knows what it looked like or what happened to it. It's good number for an experimental version.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 2:20:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Don't let the photos fool you, the woven furniture is red-brown; it just tends to photograph as black, or near black.

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99.9%  Black
.01%    Brown


Link Posted: 8/2/2015 4:10:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
99.9%  Black
.01%    Brown
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And further up the pictured handguard you can clearly see the trademark red brown color of the phenolic resin it's made from.

That's the nature of the material. Again, don't be fooled. It appears black simply because of color saturation. It's an overload of color, much like how black cake frosting is just an overload of a particular color.  The only reason 601 furniture appears brown is because of the high density of fiber filler.

Imagine filling a bucket with purely red food dye. It will appear black. Now drop a white shirt into the bucket. Your going to see blacks, reds, pinks, and whites depending on the depth of the shirt in the dye.

Same concept here.  
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 10:48:48 PM EDT
[#4]
That is a great close up of the weave. I completely get the mix of black, red and brown that is really brown. The variations and combinations of parts on the photos of the prototypes is all over the place.  Thanks for the guidance 57.

I'm thinking I can always sand the paint job off if I don't like it. There really does not seem to be any real rythme or reason to the order of the parts on any given serial number. I have to thank all those that have done research on the prototype types. All the pictures are very helpful.

I had JT dimple all of my pins and shorten the mag release, create mag button lines, re-parkerize the no square port door, create an early gas tube and prototype sight wheel, modify a selector to work with the prototype markings and a I picked up a prototype type flash hinder. I also found a cast prototype FSB (Braceman finished the milling), edgwater buffer, chrome full round BCG and I have an NDS prototype lower. I'm waiting for NDS to work on the prototype trigger charging handle uppers later this month. A new 1:12 Green Mountain pencil barrel will be milled to prototype standards by JT.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 11:20:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That is a great close up of the weave. I completely get the mix of black, red and brown that is really brown. The variations and combinations of parts on the photos of the prototypes is all over the place.  Thanks for the guidance 57.

I'm thinking I can always sand the paint job off if I don't like it. There really does not seem to be any real rythme or reason to the order of the parts on any given serial number. I have to thank all those that have done research on the prototype types. All the pictures are very helpful.

I had JT dimple all of my pins and shorten the mag release, create mag button lines, re-parkerize the no square port door, create an early gas tube and prototype sight wheel, modify a selector to work with the prototype markings and a I picked up a prototype type flash hinder. I also found a cast prototype FSB (Braceman finished the milling), edgwater buffer, chrome full round BCG and I have an NDS prototype lower. I'm waiting for NDS to work on the prototype trigger charging handle uppers later this month. A new 1:12 Green Mountain pencil barrel will be milled to prototype standards by JT.
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Prototypes sure are a labor of love, good luck finishing your project.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 11:27:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I've got a fairly decent shot of #8's flash suppressor if that would be helpful.
Link Posted: 8/2/2015 11:39:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Here's the best pic I've found
Link Posted: 9/8/2015 11:10:48 PM EDT
[#8]
NDS prototype uppers are almost done! I'm on the list and ready for one. It was the last part I needed. I still have some barrel work I need JT to do on my new GM barrel, but I am getting close. Old number 5 (clone) is starting to make progress.
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 12:41:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Upper is in my hands, looks great!

Link Posted: 9/21/2015 12:57:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Nice! I guess nodak is making them again?
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 1:11:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes, mine shows up tomorrow, and I'm excited about it.  I can't wait to get it engraved and put together
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 2:14:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Mine is supposed to show up today!
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 6:00:41 PM EDT
[#13]
OP, I can't wait to see the final result! Big ups to the retro community for inspiring us all.

Got another proto upper from NDS too!
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 6:09:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Did anyone get a non-blem proto-type upper from this run?  I have one ordered, but was wanting a non-blem upper.
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 6:16:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did anyone get a non-blem proto-type upper from this run?  I have one ordered, but was wanting a non-blem upper.
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I talked to Harlen and he seemed to think that there would be NO non-blem uppers, and he was vague about when, or if, they would do another run.  I went ahead and had him ship a blem, as I don't want to miss out on getting one in ANY condition.  Besides, I figure the prototypes, being done on such a small scale, might have had blems on them anyway. I'll post a photo of mine tomorrow when it arrives.
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 6:33:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Just got mine today, the blems aren't too bad, I can certainly live with it. Some of the streaking is just oil.









Link Posted: 9/21/2015 6:39:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Doesn't look to bad, anyone have an extra Sendra no pad ejection port cover/door, I see them all the time when I'm not looking lol
Link Posted: 9/21/2015 7:40:23 PM EDT
[#18]
I have not been able to find my blemish yet. Team NDS tells me it's on there, so I'm sure at some point it will be found. I could care less at this point. I'm just happy to have the upper. Here is my raw parts pile:

Link Posted: 9/21/2015 11:01:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Looking good, your almost there
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 3:07:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Pinging to keep the thread alive while I got side tracked with a 1959 Ruger single six type 2 three screw. There are a couple of threads currently pinging around that I want to pull the current prototype information into this thread.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/684125_I_got_to_HOLD_prototype__2_and__3_Armalte_AR_15_s_today________.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/684167_What_was_the_diameter_of_the_barrels_of_prototype_rifles_.html

At the Tulsa show, Armalite #2 & #3 AR-15 prototype rifles are on display. It turns out that the owner is a good friend of my friend. My buddy surprised me and made arrangements for me to actually HOLD these incredible weapons. It is amazing how different the two rifles are. The owner answered some very important questions I had about prototype weapons. It turns out that 0,1,2,3 & 4 were the ORIGINAL prototypes. Even the barrel diameters were different. I was amazed how thin the stocks were, and how LIGHT the weapons are. I even got to fondle the original 25 round mags in the weapons. This didn't just make my day, but at LEAST my month, or maybe even my year. I was so AWESTRUCK.

Gun shows frown on photos, so I wasn't about to whip out my camera. I went back and spoke with him again today. Both of these weapons were in Belgium, and have Belgian proof house markings on the bolts and receivers. After Colt got them back (they were on loan for testing), the same Colt executive was able to procure both weapons. He then sold them to the current owner. Serial number 0,1,2,3 & 4 were the first five original hand assembled prototypes. These first five had a larger "AR15" engraving than subsequent rifles. Also these first five had reverse threads on the rear sight with the sight wheel marked "L", and a clockwise arrow. Later models had standard threads on the rear sight, and an "L" and counter clockwise arrows. All of the first five had different flash hiders and barrel profiles. The first five had super fine lines on the mag catches. He also is 100% POSITIVE that the projection on top of the bipod adapter IS a bayonet lug. He says that Reed Knight has an original low profile bayonet that attaches to the projection, and that he has personally held it and attached it to a rifle. I spoke with him at length about having the rifles disassembled and having detailed photos of all of the parts, and hopefully I have convinced him to do so. He has never even had them apart to see what buffer and bolt was used. The sad thing, is that he is BLIND and will never be able to see the awesomeness of his weapons.

I just went and checked for you, so here are your answers: the butt plate is rubber. The exposed part of the buffer tube in bare aluminum, without anodizing. The edge of the stock, underneath the exposed buffer tube, is beveled, which makes it look like it us a different color. The butt stock is much thinner than a type "A" stock. I believe from your posts that you are doing #4. If that is correct, the barrel diameter is even thinner than later production prototypes.

Apparently, not only does prototype serial number one exist, but serial number zero exists as well, according to the owner of #2 & #3

Quoting the December 1958 report from Aberdeen:

"The barrel has 8 flutes 9-1/2 inches long at the rear of the front sight shoulder. The barrel has a diameter of 0.593 inch (rifle number 18) at the front sight position and a diameter of 0.560 inch at the muzzle. A 6 inch length starting 3/4 inch from the muzzle muzzle has a diameter of 0.472 inch."

So, basically, you have a .560 muzzle diameter for 3/4, it steps down to .472 for 6 inches, the steps up to .593 under the FSB.

Looks like the 25 round mag They had stamped serial numbers, not electro penciled like I have seen on photos of others.
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