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Posted: 10/8/2004 2:23:22 PM EST
I ordered a "no ban" Bushmaster M4 from a local dealer on Sept 14. After the first week I was told it would be another week, maybe 2 to get it in. I called today and was told they can't even find one anywhere to order therefore they can't say when I'll get it.

I was a little pissed so I went to another dealer and told them that if they could match the price AND get one in, I'd buy it from them. This dealer made a bunch of calls and confirmed the lack of available M4A3s (ok, so now I wasn't quite so pissed at the first dealer).

Anyway, he suggested a DPMS which he could get in two weeks, and cheaper than the Bushmaster. He said DPMS was every bit as good as, or even better, than Bushmaster.

I'd like some advice. Should I hold out for the more expensive Bushmaster (with no ETA), or go with the DPMS? Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 2:36:37 PM EST
I have no firsthand experience with either, but both are very well regarded names. I would look into the features of both weapons and decide what suits your needs best. How important are differences such as 4140 vs 4150 steel and chrome lining? Things of that nature are what will set the rifles apart.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 2:40:23 PM EST
There is nothing wrong with DPMS, they make good rifles.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 2:43:02 PM EST
No, DPMS isn't a good upper. Their lowers are fine.


CMMG uppers are made with DPMS components, and are very good. Plus, they are sponsors here. I have one of their uppers and it is great. Customer service is excellent, also.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 2:47:31 PM EST
Go with CMMG and you won't be disappointed to go with a DPMS-made rifle.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 2:49:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2004 2:49:54 PM EST by glockguy40]
Try aimsurplus for the Bushmaster M4A3 you are looking for. They sell it for $809 and they say on their site that deliver will take only 2-3 weeks.

Check their site here: AIMSURPLUS

That is a hell of a deal they are offering.... I would give them a call.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:06:09 PM EST
There is NOTHING wrong with DPMS.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:09:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
There is NOTHING wrong with DPMS.





You get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:10:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
There is NOTHING wrong with DPMS.





You get what you pay for.



When I am told by one of the best shooters in the nation that DPMS makes a great product I tend to listen.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:17:14 PM EST
What kind of shooting? A top varmint or long range shooter would likely think well of their product. For a defensive weapon, it leaves some things to be desired.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:18:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2004 3:18:57 PM EST by WalkerTexasRanger]
Every DPMS product I own has worked flawlessly. This includes a just purchased AP4, the DPMS equivalent to the M4. I will add that I received it 10 days after my dealer placed the order, this even though DPMS quoted 4 weeks.

The fit and finish is better than the Bushmasters I have owned, and since sold...

Combat Jack, you have given good advice in the past, so I will pose a question. I am not sure that I understand your post above stating that the CMMG uppers, utilizing DPMS parts are excellent, but that a DPMS upper is not so great. Are you implying that the assembly done by DPMS is inferior?

Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:19:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of shooting? A top varmint or long range shooter would likely think well of their product. For a defensive weapon, it leaves some things to be desired.



U.S. Army srvice rifle... One of the top high power rifle shooters in the nation SSG Lew Tippie
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:20:47 PM EST
Also, why is it not desireable for self defense?
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:21:24 PM EST
Bushmaster is worth the wait. I wouldn't buy a DPMS. Buy a complete upper, lower and stock then push the pins yourself. Save $100-200 easy. You'll probably have your rifle quicker than buying whole to boot.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:25:05 PM EST
Mostly I don't like DPMS barrels. CMMG uses 14.5 (my choice) or 16 inch M4 barrels, 1/7 chrome lined. M4 feed ramps. On mine at least, not on all, I think.

I like LMT or Colt for the MPI bolt and barrel. I recognize that not everybody has the same budget, though.

Also, I hear from an instructor at Gunsite that he has seen DPMS bolts break in his classes.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:25:45 PM EST
Just get a LMT upper and slap it on whatever lower you can find.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:27:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of shooting? A top varmint or long range shooter would likely think well of their product. For a defensive weapon, it leaves some things to be desired.



U.S. Army srvice rifle... One of the top high power rifle shooters in the nation SSG Lew Tippie



Tippie is staff here, haven't seen him for a while. They make an excellent high power rifle, I am sure. Carbines....I like those to be closer to mil spec.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:35:38 PM EST
If you can find a stripped lower, buy it and get a J&T M4 kit...spend the savings on ammo and mags and have fun.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:35:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2004 3:38:24 PM EST by DM1975]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What kind of shooting? A top varmint or long range shooter would likely think well of their product. For a defensive weapon, it leaves some things to be desired.



U.S. Army srvice rifle... One of the top high power rifle shooters in the nation SSG Lew Tippie



Tippie is staff here, haven't seen him for a while. They make an excellent high power rifle, I am sure. Carbines....I like those to be closer to mil spec.



Thats because he has been training guys in the new SDM course. What part is not mil spec on them, I am asking to be enlightend, not to be a smart ass.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:37:34 PM EST
From experience.................................NO
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:45:05 PM EST
Whats SDM?

Colt carbine Uppers have:

Park under the FSB
Square shoulder on the end of the barrel
F front sight base
Taller receiver
M4 feed ramps
Magnetic particle inspected barrel and bolt


I also think that Colt has a little better attention to detail. I DO NOT mean to be a Colt snob, in fact I own an LMT, because it has most of the above features. I recognize that people have budgets.

I am a huge fan of chrome bores. My fathers Remington 742 had pitting in the bore bad enough to rip apart the case on extraction, and one of my OAI barrels pitted. These events happened due to the moisture we have here. For me, the most important feature is chrome, and the last time I looked that wasn't even an option on DPMS guns.

Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:51:44 PM EST
SDM is Squad Designated Marksman, this is the Army guys youa re seeing now with M14's with ACOGS. At least some of them are useing this, in my unit I am still issued an M16A4 for the job.

I can see the chrome lined barrel but the rest of it does not particularly bother me. I have RRA and it is the best rifle I have ever owned. And what do you mean a taller receiver? I am ignorant in that area, probably because I dispise Colt.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:55:54 PM EST
I just emailed them and asked if they would provide chrome lining as an option. I dont see why they wouldn't.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:56:43 PM EST
Colt uses a taller rear receiver. I don't know the full details about it myself though. I understand that BFI and LMT are using these too.

Colt is a company with an idiot at the helm. If they were more civilian friendly, they would not be hovering on the edge like they are today. If FN, LMT or BFI could pick up a contract to take Colt's place making M4s when that contract expires, Colt may well go under.

RRA is pretty good stuff too. The barrels arent available in my choice of twist, at least not with chrome, but they are onto something with the mid length.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:58:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I just emailed them and asked if they would provide chrome lining as an option. I dont see why they wouldn't.



Some companies, like Olympic Arms, talk trash about chrome lining. It has a negative effect on accuracy, albeit one that isn't really an issue in a combat or defensive arm.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:59:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I just emailed them and asked if they would provide chrome lining as an option. I dont see why they wouldn't.



Some companies, like Olympic Arms, talk trash about chrome lining. It has a negative effect on accuracy, albeit one that isn't really an issue in a combat or defensive arm.



Olympic Arms isn't quite the sharpest peanut in the turd either.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 4:02:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
Olympic Arms isn't quite the sharpest peanut in the turd either.





I live 10 miles from their factory, I know some of their employees......

You're right
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 4:06:57 PM EST
Well if they email me back and say that they do not offer it then I am with you. They still make a great CMP rifle from what I am told though. No chrome needed on a SS barrel.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 6:08:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Try aimsurplus for the Bushmaster M4A3 you are looking for. They sell it for $809 and they say on their site that deliver will take only 2-3 weeks.



I'm local to AIM and have been on their preorder waiting list since the day the ban ended. I call once a week, and every week they give me the same answer: "2-3 weeks".

I'm starting to run out of patience and AWB excitement steam. On the bright side, I do have 20 new LEO marked Glocks mags!
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 8:08:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dodgeram:
From experience.................................NO



Ditto.

My DPMS lower came with a totally out of spec bolt hold open, but even worse, the front lugs were cut off center, meaning that the upper is tilted when mounted. Not enough to impede functioning, but enough that I'll never buy DPMS again

Get the Bushie.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 2:13:28 PM EST
Those that have had problems with DPMS, have any of these problems been recent? I've heard that their quality has greatly improved.

I'm not really into piecing a rifle together. I would rather buy a complete gun.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 3:07:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 3:16:00 PM EST by Mustang50]
I saw one yesterday for sale at Tanner's in Jamison PA. Funny thing was a guy was checking it out and wanted a red dot sight for it and he ended up looking at some sort of sight that i heard the clerk say cost $25.00. ( must have been for a paint ball gun). I don't know whether he bought it or not but would not hurt to give them a call
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 3:21:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 4:04:05 PM EST by fgc]

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
Bushmaster is worth the wait. I wouldn't buy a DPMS. Buy a complete upper, lower and stock then push the pins yourself. Save $100-200 easy. You'll probably have your rifle quicker than buying whole to boot.



I agree. Except that I did buy a DPMS. I think thier quality is par with any of the other top manufactures. I picked mine up from my transfer dealer today. Ordered a DPMS forged lower with a 4 position stock and a flattop M-4 upper (the upper included a bolt and chromed carrier). With shipping I have $606.00 in it. Oh, and $20.00 for the transfer, Shipping and transfer fee are still less than the tax would have been. I would rather give the $$$ to my transfer dealer than THE MAN...hippie.gif

Just my $.02
-J-
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:02:34 PM EST
Another vote with going with CMMG and their chrome lined M4 uppers. It is a great product, and you couldn't ask for a better bunch of guys to do business with.

Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:43:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By fgc:
I think [DPMS] quality is par with any of the other top manufactures.


I'm curious, this is based on comparing your DPMS rifle to how many other rifles of how many other of those top manufacturers that you currently or have previously owned?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:58:08 PM EST
I would just order a a RRA lower and a M4 LMT upper
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:10:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Outlaw_6:
Those that have had problems with DPMS, have any of these problems been recent? I've heard that their quality has greatly improved.

I'm not really into piecing a rifle together. I would rather buy a complete gun.



Then go with CMMG you can get it all at one place, and they are good people (as you've heard). Lately I would have to say that the quality across the line of manufactures is getting pretty even. The majority get the same forgings (from what I've been told). It's going to come down to who you deal with. IMHO
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:35:56 PM EST
My DPMS works great. Never had a problem.

Link Posted: 10/10/2004 5:50:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2004 5:50:56 PM EST by Stasher1]
DPMS offers some of their barrels with chrome chambers and bores.

> Our M4 barrels are machined to the MIL-Spec's with the exception of the
1-1/2"
> extra length to make them civalian legal length. The pre ban thread barrel
is
> standard 1/2x28 threads and the Miculek comp will fit.They are called
heavy but
> they are contoured lighter under the handgaurd per spec.We do offer these
> barrels with and without chrome lining[chrome adds $20.00 to catalog
price.]
> These barrels are compatable with any Mil Spec upper receiver.
> Thanx
> Dave
> DPMS Tech Sales


My DPMS M4gery has been absolutely fantastic. No problems whatsoever, and the finish looks alot better than the Bushmaster I was looking at when I bought it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:43:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
Try aimsurplus for the Bushmaster M4A3 you are looking for. They sell it for $809 and they say on their site that deliver will take only 2-3 weeks.

Check their site here: AIMSURPLUS

That is a hell of a deal they are offering.... I would give them a call.

Hope this helps.hug.gif



Thanks for the tip. I gave them a call this morning and, as it turns out, they haven't received any from BM since the sunset. They have a waiting list and said the M4A3 is the most popular model. They estimate a month before any will be available.

I'm still deciding and have a few more leads but it looks like I'll probably go with DPMS.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:38:56 AM EST
This is my response from DPMS on chrome lining barrels. Looks very reasonable to me.


Yes we can get the barrels chrome lined for an additional $20.00.
We don't have a production code for this, it is something that you will need to request when ordering the barrel
If you have any questions feel free to contact us,

Thank you,
Shane C
DPMS Sales

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:23:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 9:27:56 PM EST by Cato]
Its not just chrome lining- any companys claims of "having
improved the system by tighter tolerances" makes my hair stand up..
Simply ask yourself why your dealer can get DPMS easily....
Before buying an M4gery read this. It is kind of enlightning.
Some may disagree, but I would take a Rock River Arms M4gery from a
company like ADCO in a heartbeat over DPMS.
ADCO tunes your M4 to your wishes and stands behind their product. They
have a great reputation here.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:33:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Outlaw_6:
I ordered a "no ban" Bushmaster M4 from a local dealer on Sept 14. After the first week I was told it would be another week, maybe 2 to get it in. I called today and was told they can't even find one anywhere to order therefore they can't say when I'll get it.
quote]


I am going through the same BS, But with Armalite. Iwas told today that it will likely be another 2 to3 weeks... WTF?
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:01:03 PM EST
I order a new Bushy M4 on 9/27/04 at a local dealer, picked it up today. I don't know which one is better, since its my first time owning a AR-type rifle.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:25:36 AM EST
If you would look at DPMS web sight they offer asmuch and alot more in upgrades and additions than anyone out there. They stand behind there product .
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:29:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mustang50:
I saw one yesterday for sale at Tanner's in Jamison PA.....but would not hurt to give them a call



Another good tip. I called them yesterday and they said they still had it for $929. They said they would hold it for me if I wanted. I declined, needing time to think about it.

The dealer I have the original order with quoted me $859. He's still working on getting one, no ETA.

I thought about it all night and when I got up this morning I thought, screw it, I'll pay the extra $70. At least I'll have one. With my luck, before my ordered rifle comes in, there will be a new ban!

Well, Tanners is just over an hour away from me and they open at 10AM, I figured I'd head out early so I can get there by 10 since I have to work middle shift today. I arrived at 10:15 and was told they sold the gun yesterday evening.......hey
Maybe I'm just not meant to have an M4
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 8:08:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Outlaw_6:
IAnyway, he suggested a DPMS which he could get in two weeks, and cheaper than the Bushmaster. He said DPMS was every bit as good as, or even better, than Bushmaster.


He is so full of it it isn't even funny. I'd avoid this dealer.


Should I hold out for the more expensive Bushmaster (with no ETA), or go with the DPMS? Thanks.

Most definately hold out for the Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 8:22:51 AM EST
I have a DPMS match service rifle I shoot in HP.

Its fantastic, has no problems and is exceptionally accurate.

I would heartily recommend DPMS.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:50:29 PM EST
I just installed my RRA Parts into my new DPMS Lower. I have a couple gripes about the DPMS. Fist off the Lower has some pitting in some spots. This is a cast lower though so I guess in this case you DO infact get what you pay for. And that is what I am doing, a low budget gun I can throw around in the jeep.

Second, I had to take a dremel to the trigger guard to get it to seat correctly for pinning. I took a good amount of material off of the reciever to get this done. Keep in mind I was using RRA PArts for the build on the DPMS Lower.

Now for the good. I slapped my Bushy upper on the DPMS lower I just build and it fit NICE AND TIGHT!! I mean this thing smokes my bushmaster as far as lower to upper fit. This looks good to me, but common sense tells me that this could be infact bad as the weapon may like a little slack in the system to function.

In conclusion, I would purchase a DPMS Lower for a budget build. but I sure as hell would not register it on a form 1 or anything!

And sorry my spelling is depressing!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:25:42 PM EST
CMMG

tex78
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:01:21 PM EST
Things are NUTS all over as far as ordering any AR based rifle from ANY wholesaler.

The backorder situation is complete pandemonium for all of the top makers, and the better known smaller makers like Rock River.

The Sunset of the AWB will bump start the economy if this keeps up.

I have 4 customers waiting for different AR's, and have each of them on no fewer than 7 wholesaler waiting lists.

Bushmaster is no different.

I have been waiting for my own 2 lowers from Rock River for 4 weeks now.
My Colt wholesalers sigh a lot during conversations.

DPMS?
I wont belittle them. Have seen both good and Bad from them.

Personally I would wait on Bushmaster to catch up, or order a LMT Upper, and a RR Lower.

I will add that one customer, recieved his rifle from RR in 2 weeks total.
I about passed out!

Just getting through on the phone to RR can be a trial these days.

Time is cheap. I'd wait, and get what I wanted.

Hope this helps somehow.
S-28

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