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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/5/2005 7:43:26 PM EDT
Ok after a week and a half of anticipation, waiting on my background check that came up unresolved, thats another story. I finally got to take my Bushmaster home Friday afternoon. Well I went shooting today to try it for the first time. First I tried the Plastic Magazine, Every Round the thing Jams, This is a brand new Rifle Never Fired mind you, I tried my Metal Magazines same thing The Gun is not ejecting the Fired Round and is loading a live round while the fired round is still in the chamber any reason this is doing this. Oh and now i have a fired round stuck above the bolt and the gun is stuck cant get it out and am really P@#$%d off I just Spent some good money and this is not a verry satisfied customerhis

ANY Info Regarding this Situations is Highly Regarded Thanks in Advance oh and love the site you guys are the reason i purchased a bushmaster in the first place.hug.gif
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:47:53 PM EDT
Use USGI Magazines.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:48:18 PM EDT
It's called short stroking.....................what ammo are you using?


John
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:01:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 8:02:47 PM EDT by twonami]
which plastic magazine?
brand of ammo?
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:06:33 PM EDT
I Used three types XM193 some ammo that im not sure of but the gun store told me it was British Military Surplus and Some Winchester Reloaded that i baught from a gun show. I tried all three types just to be sure. And sure enough all three types gave me the same results Jams and a stuck round that i have to have removed by a gun smith.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:09:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 8:11:02 PM EDT by twonami]
get some brand new ammo and try that first. Go to wally world and get some WWB and see if it still does this. Use USGI mags only, some of the plastic mags won't work in Bushy AR's
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:10:12 PM EDT
First off, the rifle should have broken down and fully cleaned from the start(read lubed and cleaned with CLP).

Second, the mags that you should have been using should of been USGI, and not the cheap knocks and plastic specials. A USGI goes for around $15, and can be bought in the EE.

Last item is ammo, given that you were using cheap knock off mags, I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the ammo used was Wolf. Wolf ammop should run in the rifle, but only when the rifle is cleaned and lube correctly. For the first few hundred rounds, you may just want to use something that is brass cased like xm-193 or any other ammo that is close to Mil-spec

For CLP, us BreakfreeCLP and buy it in the big spray can (you going to using it for both lube and a cleaner).

For cleaning the rifle,
www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:13:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
First off, the rifle should have broken down and fully cleaned from the start(read lubed and cleaned with CLP).

Second, the mags that you should have been using should of been USGI, and not the cheap knocks and plastic specials. A USGI goes for around $15, and can be bought in the EE.

Last item is ammo, given that you were using cheap knock off mags, I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the ammo used was Wolf. Wolf ammop should run in the rifle, but only when the rifle is cleaned and lube correctly. For the first few hundred rounds, you may just want to use something that is brass cased like xm-193 or any other ammo that is close to Mil-spec

For CLP, us BreakfreeCLP and buy it in the big spray can (you going to using it for both lube and a cleaner).

For cleaning the rifle,
www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/




In showing how to clean an M16 you have just reminded why I love the AK.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:14:24 PM EDT
To see of it's short stroking perform the following test:

1.) Load one round only in magazine.
2.) Chamber round.
3.) Hold the rifle as loosely as possible while still retaining safe control. (When I do this test I don't even put the rifle up to my shoulder, I just rest the forearm on a sandbag.)
4.) Fire the round.

Do the above test, firing a single round each time.

Does the bolt (carrier) lock back each and every time??

If it fails to lock back then it's short stroking.

It may also be high chamber pressure making it appear as if it's short stroking.

report back with results.

this is probably an easy fix.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:36:54 PM EDT
Ok once again I only used one Plastic i used the USGI mags after the Plastic one the mags look like the ones on the Magzine part of the forum with the Topic MAG PORN those are the exact ones im using
Made in Hartford CT are these not good enough and like i said the ammo that i used is XM-193, Winchester, and the other one has RORG 93 on the bottom of the brass I will try some brand new ammo from Wally World and try the Actions posted on the Reply for my original question.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 8:40:46 PM EDT
Oh and yes i did fully break down the rifle and clean and lubed it before taking it out shooting I did 3 months of Research before i Bought my rifle and most of the research was done here at this site Im not some Idiot I just have never owned or shot an AR-15 except at Rental Gun Ranges
I am also taking the Rifle back to the store so they can have there smith remove the round from the top of the bolt.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:17:45 PM EDT
"is loading a live round while the fired round is still in the chamber "

This sounds like an extraction issue. How are you getting the chambered brass out? Cleaning rod, or just tilting weapon up and it falls out?
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:31:52 PM EDT
First things first please.

Do the short stroke test as outlined above and we'll go from there.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 10:55:53 PM EDT
Single round in the mag and check to see if the bolt is locking back on the empty mag.

If the bolt locks back, then you need to add a #60 O ring around the extractor spring until the chamber polish out (increased the tension of the spring). Also, check the extractor grab lip for burs on end of it and the rim relief channel. If needed use a jewelers file and remove the end of channel burs, and a stone to clean the grabing lip ends to allow the extractor to get a good grip on the rim.
Note, you can lose the O ring in a few hundred rounds as the chamber self polishes threw live fire.

If the bolt does not lock back on the empty mag, it time to check the Key allen screws to make sure that they are tight. Bushmaster has been known to have loose key bolts from the factroy.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:11:25 AM EDT
I dont have to use a cleaning rod to get the rounds out usally just tip the rifle and they fall out or remove the magazine and they fall out or a screw driver to pry it from the spacing above the bolt. but now ther is a bullet lodged on top of the bolt and i cant strip the gun apart. Im heading to where i purchased the gun and have them remove the spent round im no gun smith and i dont want to tear things up. Ill try the requested actions and let you all know whats up see the thing with the Orings sounds best because the bolt is not exactly pulliing the bullet out to extract all the way nevertheless i will try the bolt extension test. Thanks again these replys have helped out
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:24:53 AM EDT
clean that thing inside and out with a solvent spray, like birchwood casey's gun scrubber can at walmart. You can almost bet this is a cleaning issue, those things come caked in grease.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:32:11 AM EDT
It was a gas preassure problem, it didnt have enough preassure to push the bolt back. After the gun store removed the spent casing they blamed it on the ammo, i laughed and then he went and shot the ammo they use and said well its not the ammo then adjusted something and now it works like a Rifle should ill go shooting in the next couple of days and let you all know the results that i come up with.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 11:42:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Neuro:
It was a gas preassure problem, it didnt have enough preassure to push the bolt back. After the gun store removed the spent casing they blamed it on the ammo, i laughed and then he went and shot the ammo they use and said well its not the ammo then adjusted something and now it works like a Rifle should ill go shooting in the next couple of days and let you all know the results that i come up with.



from what I can imagine, I don't see how it can be a gas issue. If it has enough force to push the bolt back far enough to pass the mag, then push another forward, it wouldn't be a gas pressure issue. If it were, it wouldn't either be ejecting the round at all, or not travel far enough back to load another.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 10:06:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 10:09:01 PM EDT by plinkereye]
If you broke it in with brass ammo and it still has problems then try different ammo, wolf should do the trick. many dont believe but it will. probably the gas port is the problem if its a m4 16" barrel. company that built my upper drilled the gas port too small and my timing was off with military and expensive fast burning powder ammo. the only ammo that gave me good timing for my bolt carrier self blow-back and gas blow-back was wolf. fast burning powder will do a gas blow back first (making bolt carrier only go 1/2 way back) then a self blow back(1/4 way back) so then you have a short stroke. you need both blow-backs at the same time to make the bolt carrier go all the way back and eject fired rnd and load new rnd. im happy with my gun having a small gas port cuz i can shoot wolf all i want.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:33:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By Neuro:
It was a gas preassure problem, it didnt have enough preassure to push the bolt back. After the gun store removed the spent casing they blamed it on the ammo, i laughed and then he went and shot the ammo they use and said well its not the ammo then adjusted something and now it works like a Rifle should ill go shooting in the next couple of days and let you all know the results that i come up with.



from what I can imagine, I don't see how it can be a gas issue. If it has enough force to push the bolt back far enough to pass the mag, then push another forward, it wouldn't be a gas pressure issue. If it were, it wouldn't either be ejecting the round at all, or not travel far enough back to load another.



Not quite true.

Even if the bolt face does not travel backwards beyong the rear of the next bullet in the mag, the bolt can strip another round from the mag and push it forward. The friction of the bolt sliding on the side of the bullet is sometimes enough to strip it from the magazine.

Try it by hand. Pull the charging handle back so the bolt face goes alomst to the end of the next bullet (use a spent cartrige) and let the bolt go. Every so often, it strips a new round.

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:10:31 PM EDT
Well I went to the Range Today and tried the short stroke test 99% of the time it locked back by its self once it did not. Then I went through 2 30 round magazines and it did fine. I then reloaded the same magazines and it started jamming again not extracting the bullet and loading another one while trying to extract that one this happende every 2-3 rounds. Is there any one in the Las Vegas Area that wouldnt mind Contacting me and checking out my rifle cuz I dont know what to do if an Urban assault happens to come into my area im UP The Perverbial Creek with a Firearm that does not shoot. you can reach me at neuromancer88@earthlink.net Im a Joining the Boulder City Pistol and Rifle Club so I can bring you there its a nice range to shoot at.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:57:57 PM EDT
get and install a heavy duty extractor spring (black insert).

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 10:57:28 PM EDT
Well after i posted the last time i checked my email and bushmaster replied to my request and is sending me some extractor springs for free and if those dont work to send the rifle to them and they will work out the problem for me or replace whatever parts are nescessary.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:00:07 PM EDT
BUt like I said before if there is anyone in or near the Las Vegas Nevada Area Email me and we can get together neuromancer88@earthlink.net
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:40:51 PM EDT
MauserMark Was Correct in saying this is a cleaning problem. I used Hopes Lube and Cleaner Well i went to the store and baught some BreakFree CLP now the gun is shooting with no problems whatsoever But None the Less Thanks for all of your info and helping me out check out the gun in the AR Picture Disscusion Thread I posted a Pic of what I got on page 10. Well Thanks again.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:06:53 PM EDT
Go to love it when you post the correct answer, yet some people still go fishing for other solutions.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:05:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:29:05 PM EDT
Nope I was Born in 79. Why?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:47:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 10:43:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
If the bolt locks back, then you need to add a #60 O ring around the extractor spring...



Dano, are you talking about a DASH 060 O ring?
Dash numbers are the standard system of numbering o ring sizes.
Looking at McMaster, I don't see a dash 060 listed.
I suspect that you mean a dash 006, which is 1/8" inside and 1/4" outside and 1/16" thickness.

What's the material of choice anyways?
I'm thinking Viton.

Randall
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 2:52:31 PM EDT
The idea of the O rings to just add tension to the extractor to allow the chamber to break in threw live fire. Material of the rings is a secondary thing since the concept is that the ring will only be used for a few hundred rounds. If after that amount of shooting to allow the chamber to self-polish out threw live fire, the O-ring is still needed as a Band aid to allow the rifle to cycle without problems, then you have other problems that will need to be adressed. These items are listed as followed,

1. The head spacing on the chamber is too short, and this is causing over pressure in the chamber/case during ignition.

2. The chamber condition is less than stellar, and all the live fire in the world will not solve the problem before the barrel is worn out. In regards to this, you need to scope the chamber sidewalls to check the condition of them. Burs/reaming groves that were produced during reaming have left the chamber unusable (read light marks can be hand polished out), and if the chamber was chrome plated over such defects, the useful purpose of the barrel is left to being used as a tomato stake in the garden.

3. The extractor was either produced flawed, or has milling burs that are preventing it from operating correctly. If you have stoned any production burrs off the claw, end of rim relief channel, and the extractor is not binding up in the extractor bolt channel, then it should be replaced with a know working unit.

4. The extractor spring is weak, or just produced from less than idea material, and again, it should be replaced with a known working unit.

To sum it up, the use of the O-ring is a band-aid at best. We often suggest its use as a tool to assist the rifle/chamber to self-polish. Like any other band aid, it's use is meant as a temporary helping item, and if it needs to be used as a permanent item on the rifle, then the original problem much be corrected in another manner. Some solutions are feasible and can be corrected by smithing; some are not and require that the defective parts that cannot be brought back into spec be replaced with correctly produced working replacement parts. To bring this post whole circle, if correct preparation of the rifle is maintained (cleaned and lubed correctly), the rifle has been given a chance to break in threw it's own power (live fire with spec brass ammo), an still has problems, then the unit needs to be sent back to the manufacture/supplier for overhaul/replacement parts.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:17:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 7:27:33 PM EDT by eddiein1984]
This was a very frustrating topic to read. You guys wasted a whole page talking about ammo and magazines, when the first post said Neuro used multiple magazines and different kinds of ammo. Then you concluded it was a cleaning issue. Right! Cleaning may aid the rifle to limp along, but it sounds like the rifle has a marginal gas system at some point: port, gas tube or bolt. I would guess that whatever the obstruction or blockage was, it has partially corrected itself. On the first outing, possibly the gas rings were aligned, which would cause short stroking if the rifle had low gas flow to begin with. Thus the gunsmith "adjusted something" and it worked, at least for a bit. I don't think the extractor has anything to do with this one. My rifle has worked 100% since day one not because I shoot expensive ammo, not because I clean it with diapers and single malt Scotch, but because whoever slapped together my upper did it properly and because my bolt was manufactured within spec. Wasting newbies time talking about ammo and cleaning on a rifle that functions 50/50 is nothing more than a distraction.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:05:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 8:10:39 PM EDT by Dano523]
Eddiein1984, for a newbie you have really dove into the deep end without a clue.

First off, the gunsmith tightened the carrier key. Bushmaster are know to send the units out with a loose key/screws, and either it leaks out the gate, or takes a few hundred rounds to start leaking. My guess is if you do have a bushmaster, give it a few thousands rounds and you may have the same problem as well.

The second point in too many people fail to clean and lube the rifle with the correct solvent, being that solvent CLP. If standard copper solvents are left in the chamber/action, the rifle fouls out too quickly, and this goop fouling causes the rifle to jam (read leave a case in the chamber). Also, in regards to lubing, when the rifles are new, all of the upper bearing surfaces are rough from the fresh anodizing process, and without the correct lube, the rifle has problems not only dealing with the gun powder fouling, but also the powderized anodizing that is scrapped off the parts during break in.

Granted that some of the comments were hijacks and answers to the hijacks, but still they do concern overall trouble shooting, so they were semi relevant to the subject at hand.


I politely say this to you, you may want to sit back for a while and just enjoy the ride instead of inflaming the gents that post here trouble shooting the masses. Trust me, we have forgotten more in regards to the rifles and problems than most of the so call smiths that build the rifles have learned (read a cheap shot at Tweak since he did his "community service time" working for OLY (god knows it wasn't for the money or he would still be there) and now later in life,enlightens the masses with his vast knowledge of the rifle system).
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:37:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 8:42:55 PM EDT by eddiein1984]
Carrier key? Leak? That sounds like a problem with the gas system! I wish I had thought of that. I was worried about that extractor.

Look, my point was not that I know exactly what was wrong. My point is that the discussion started off with a lot of stuff that obviously had nothing to do with the problem. And again, if anodizing, flashing, pubes or whatever are enough to stop the gun on a significant percentage of shots, the operating system has a marginal component which all the teflon and o-rings in the world isn't going to fix.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:50:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 8:57:23 PM EDT by eddiein1984]
And I apologize if I stepped on anyone's feet. I really do enjoy the discussions and learning about others experiences.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:22:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 3:23:31 AM EDT by Dano523]
Eddiein1984, No worries!!!

Stick around here long enough, and you will see that we may have to sacrifice a live chicken or two to get some of the rifles running. We have found that the three monks chanting alone seems to be not enough unless the gods of rifles get some fresh blood flowing along with the prayers (read someone driving a punch threw the web of their hand, then cussing so profoundly it would make a truck driver blush).

As if you didn’t already know, the Gods of the rifles are a hungry lot, and require parts be offered to them on almost a daily bases (read the front take down pins that are shot a crossed the room, never to found again).

I guess the point that I am making is that there is no point, but if you just enjoy the ride, it can be one hell of a show. Never think as your time surfing the site as being wasted (that’s what romance novels are for), but as simple entertainment like listening to live music, with someone every one in a while hitting the wrong note (read with the typical response being WTF, or please read, then post).
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 5:50:10 PM EDT
Ok Here are the Results I Take apart the Rifle then Clean Thourouhly With CLP then AD Some more to Lube it Up it Works Great after about 3-4 30 round mags thru it it starts drying and then gives the jam problem i ad lube it works no probs. The 88 in my name came about when i singed up for my email neurmancer alone was taken and every other number was takin so 88 it is.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 11:32:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 11:54:05 PM EDT by BILLBO]
you might try a new extractor if you used winchester there was some winchester ammo on the market
i think it has been pulled but it was damaging extractors so a long shot you may have damaged the
extractor on you first couple rds thus problems sence

bottom line bushmaster should fix it problem most likly in the upper and they should fix it not requiring
you to send the whole rifle. my experance with bushmaster it they have crappy customer service unless
your making a purchase but if its still under warrentee it not your problem its theirs.

although this may be a good learning experance,

i just fixed a odidty tonight im patting my self on the back for right now i have
a new eagle lower well i finally put it together and guess what feed problems well i used it with my dpms lefty
upper which i have put well over 1000 rds through flawlessly with another lower . this one was ejecting fine but getting stuck on the feed
i could bang it on the side to get the bolt to slide sometimes so i had the luxury of bringing a second upper
a colt m4 and guess what same problem so it obviously rules out
the upper end so wtf could be the problem the bolt pushes the shell about a half inch and gets stuck

maybe it carrier getting stuck on the bolt catch well i take a file to it hmmm problem still there
well whats left lube been there done that. turns out the there are different hammer sizes and the one
i put in is a tall one and it was causing a bind yes for real i put a shorter hammer in and whola problem soved

my guess is the lower must slightly . out of spec meaning the pin holes drilled too far up i cant see a company producing taller hammers that dont just a f'n weird problem
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:23:31 PM EDT
Here we go again with the extractor. I stand by my original post. Between gas port, tube, carrier key etc, something is reducing gas flow, resulting in marginal cycling. Thus, when the rifle is clean and over lubricated its able to cycle, but once it gets a bit dirty and less lubricated it starts to short cycle. Misaligned FSB, improperly pinned gas tube, partial obstruction of the tube, something along those lines. If you get another person with a functioning upper, you should be able to systematically swap components to determine if your bolt carrier is the culprit, or the upstream gas components (or that is something unrelated like that pesky extractor).
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2005 6:21:28 PM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 3:59:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 4:48:43 PM EDT by BILLBO]


well eddie your probably right about the misaligned gas block but that is a factory fix unless you have the right tools and know how to fix it which my guess a last resort to the owner so the thing to do is
to rule out all other possible problems befor packing it up and paying to ship it back to bushmaster.

even in a earlier post bushmaster said they were sending out new extractor springs which shows they
suspect that could be the problem and i think they have build a little more than any of us on this board.

its extremly rare that the tube is blocked since it does fire thus blowing all the crud out but a damaged tube could cause it but again unlikly in a new rifle.

there was a bad run of white box winchester ammo in 99 that caused alot of extraction and extractor problems and the owner did note he used some winchester ammo.

so not to sound redundent about the extracter my point was was bad winchester ammo used

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:22:03 PM EDT
After reading a bunch of similar threads, as well as your point about eliminating all the cheap fixes before sending it back, I see your point about the extractor. It would be nice if the original poster could swap bolts with someone, then swap bolts and carriers, then swap complete uppers with the original b/bc. 15 minutes on a range with another compatible rifle would isolate the problem.

What was the deal with WWB? Dimension of the case head or material?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:22:42 PM EDT
This is te information on the bad Q3131 ammo that was out, the New ammo being ofered is Q3131a.
www.armalite.com/library/techBulletins/tb6.htm

As for Winchester white box ammo, don't have any idea but my bet bet would that the problem stem'd around too much sand in the cases since white box ammo is produced by IMI for winchester to sell her in the states.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:26:40 PM EDT
I bought a new Bushmaster 11.5/5.5 flash sup. When i First got it. It jammed too after each shot. Failing to extract the fired round and it would jam with the new round from the mag. It did this after every shot. My brothers bolt work better in the gun but would jam every ten shot or so. The bolt from my new gun never miss a beat in his rifle.
Took the gun back to the gun shop the next day got a new bolt. It was better but still jammed frequently. After firing about 400 rounds through it. It was still jamming. Too make a long story short. Call Bushmaster, Sent them the upper ( 5 days ups ground WA to ME), 3 days for them to look at it and fix it. 5 days to ship it back. 13 business days without the rifle. but its fixed. Got it back today went and shot about 200 rounds and it didn't jamm once. The note that was in the box said resealed gas system installed new extractor string. Shot 100 rounds all ok.
Buy the way it didn't cost a dime. they paid shippiong both ways. Just send it back if its under warranty.
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