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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:26:13 PM EDT
Primary arms showcased a new micro dot at shot show.  (I will be linking the video)

The gripe I have with this "Budget optic", prices are going to $300, and It is still made in China.  
$300  is going into Aimpoint territory ,  could buy an  ACO for that price new.

Every red dot they release gets more  and more expensive sadly.  
I wanted to buy one but  for that price I will just go aimpoint.  

Primary Arms - SHOT Show Product Spotlight | 2017 SHOT Show
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 5:35:51 PM EDT
[#1]
They have several red dots under $200 on their site. Not sure what the dealyo is.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 5:37:32 PM EDT
[#2]
The price increase is to cover the lifetime warranty they've added to that red dot.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 5:50:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The price increase is to cover the lifetime warranty they've added to that red dot.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
The price increase is to cover the lifetime warranty they've added to that red dot.


So they're trying to step into  Vortex territory?
Lifetime warranty  no questions asked?

If so.  I still do not see the reasoning behind it.
PA to me as a consumer was always about "cheap red dots"

Not expensive ones made in china with lifetime warranties.
That was   the Vortex territory

Quoted:
They have several red dots under $200 on their site. Not sure what the dealyo is.


The deal is that every new red dot is getting more expensive.
The original red dots they sold were  $60 if my memory serves me correctly. and now theyre  $90 for the same ones.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:04:12 PM EDT
[#4]
The advanced micro dot has a really good reputation for durability and reliability.  It's got a "near" duty status around here.  I guess you could say.  If they keep putting up a good product with good performance, regardless of where it is made, why is that a bad thing?  The big difference between an advanced micro and an aimpoint ACO or PRO is size and weight.  I sometimes debate trading my PRO for a PA advanced micro, because of the weight.  And I don't think I want to afford a T-1.  

Having options for really good optics is a good thing.  The advanced micro is still a pretty darn good deal for how good it supposedly is.  If China can make stuff that works well, oh well.  I would rather buy a product from the US though.  But Aimpoint isn't that either, so........

I thought many of the vortexx optics were Chinese made, especially the RDS's.  I'm not sure if that's much different than PA, other than that the parent company is in my home state, which does make them desirable too.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:09:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The advanced micro dot has a really good reputation for durability and reliability.  It's got a "near" duty status around here.  I guess you could say.  If they keep putting up a good product with good performance, regardless of where it is made, why is that a bad thing?  The big difference between an advanced micro and an aimpoint ACO or PRO is size and weight.  I sometimes debate trading my PRO for a PA advanced micro, because of the weight.  And I don't think I want to afford a T-1.  

Having options for really good optics is a good thing.  The advanced micro is still a pretty darn good deal for how good it supposedly is.  If China can make stuff that works well, oh well.  I would rather buy a product from the US though.  But Aimpoint isn't that either, so........

I though many of the vortexx optics were Chinese made, especially the RDS's.
View Quote


I'm not arguing that the quality is bad.  (and it seems like your whole statement was to prove how reliable they are)

I'm talking about the price.
The original MD was  $60 and it was reliable too.
With each new model the price doubles.  and now comes lifetime warranty as another poster said.
so you're paying extra for warranty now.

For me as a consumer wanting to buy, for those prices I would look elsewhere.
(Aimpoint, trijicon , vortex)
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:13:40 PM EDT
[#6]
I just meant I can see why they are wanting to cover all price points.  It's a natural progression, IMHO.  If they had products that didn't seem to be working well, then they'd have no business jumping up into that price point for optics that are failures.   I don't surf their site all the time, but don't they still sell some of the lower end optics?  I thought I remember seeing the advanced micro at like 180 and then they still have the regular ole micro dot for like 100.  

I didn't know the regular micro dot had a rep for working well.  But the longer battery life on the advanced micro is worth the extra money.  I think.  Better performance, more money.  I thought that's how all product pricing works.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:25:21 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm really satisfied with my 1-6 but my question is it new this year that it comes with a lifetime warranty?

Because I bought mine about 8 months ago and I wasn't sure if it has a lifetime warranty or not....does it now?  No? Lol.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:28:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I'm not arguing that the quality is bad.  (and it seems like your whole statement was to prove how reliable they are)

I'm talking about the price.
The original MD was  $60 and it was reliable too.
With each new model the price doubles.  and now comes lifetime warranty as another poster said.
so you're paying extra for warranty now.

For me as a consumer wanting to buy, for those prices I would look elsewhere.
(Aimpoint, trijicon , vortex)
View Quote


As JJREA pointed out the advanced dots are nearly duty ready now. If this is even a tad more robust I'd have zero reservations running it and trysting my life to it.

So why would I buy a T1 or T2 for more than double that? You can trust it for SHTF and if it breaks any other time you can send it back. Forever.

Realistically it's what, $141 more?  For additional robustness and lifetime warranty. That's not bad if you ask me.  Sure, it would be nice if it only went up like $30.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:33:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The original red dots they sold were  $60 if my memory serves me correctly. and now theyre  $90 for the same ones.
View Quote


This is actually a smart move business-wise.
In studies, when consumers are faced with 3 options - the bargain basement, the mid tier and the top tier - which one do they overwhelmingly choose?
It's the mid tier.  They don't want to deal with the doubts about the quality of the bargain basement model versus 'upgrading' to the mid tier buys some piece of mind and resulting satisfaction of 'saving money' by not getting the top tier.
PS I don't think $300 is asking that much for a red dot.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 6:47:11 PM EDT
[#10]
I agree wholeheartedly. Vortex and and primary arms have been doing this for while. Prices keep creeping up on every new fancy product introduced. It's getting to the point where there's no real benefit in choosing their chicom stuff vs paying a little bit more for the  GOOD stuff that trijicon, Aimpoint etc make!
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 7:15:52 PM EDT
[#11]
PA went down the tubes a couple of years ago.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 8:00:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
PA went down the tubes a couple of years ago.
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What happened? I read posts (near daily) indicating how satisfied owners are with them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 8:11:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The advanced micro dot has a really good reputation for durability and reliability.  It's got a "near" duty status around here.  I guess you could say.  If they keep putting up a good product with good performance, regardless of where it is made, why is that a bad thing?  The big difference between an advanced micro and an aimpoint ACO or PRO is size and weight.  I sometimes debate trading my PRO for a PA advanced micro, because of the weight.  And I don't think I want to afford a T-1.  

Having options for really good optics is a good thing.  The advanced micro is still a pretty darn good deal for how good it supposedly is.  If China can make stuff that works well, oh well.  I would rather buy a product from the US though.  But Aimpoint isn't that either, so........

I thought many of the vortexx optics were Chinese made, especially the RDS's.  I'm not sure if that's much different than PA, other than that the parent company is in my home state, which does make them desirable too.
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I'll take you up on that trade.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 8:35:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
PA went down the tubes a couple of years ago.
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What?
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 9:13:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


What?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
PA went down the tubes a couple of years ago.


What?


No they didn't.  

Look at the value people are getting from a $60.00.  Demand is high.  The product is good.  Raise the price seems reasonable.  

As for their $300 line, that would be a consumer's look at value.  

I have 3 x T1's and 2 x T2's.  Some may think that is crazy when looking at value.  

PA is doing good stuff bringing affordable RDS to buyers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 9:42:08 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
The price increase is to cover the lifetime warranty they've added to that red dot.
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Warrantys are rarely free.   you have 2 of the same thing.   one is 250 with a 2 year warranty or 350 with the lifetime warranty.   they collect up front the extra even though its exactly the same thing to offset future warranty work.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 10:25:19 PM EDT
[#17]
I enjoy every PA product I have bought, suggest them to friends as value optics, and I still believe that they are. PA still offers the basic micro red dot as you noted, though yes, it's $90 now. Same price as a TRS25 that's not on sale. But hey, it's a free market, vote with your wallet.

The price went up, but it is another generation and now has a lifetime warranty. The current generation is still on sale on their website, right now, for $170 if that's as much as you'll pay for for a PA then go for it. They may continue to offer the current model as well, which in that case, what is their to complain about?

As for being made in China, I believe PA has a good handle on the QA/QC process. I would trust it 1,000 times over something for $20 off Amazon, but if that's what you want, buy that then. Also, at least a few PA's are made in the same factory as Holosun, and a few of those optics are over $300 MSRP. If that's what the rate is to buy factory/branding time than they have to do something with the pricing.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 10:35:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No they didn't.  

Look at the value people are getting from a $60.00.  Demand is high.  The product is good.  Raise the price seems reasonable.  

As for their $300 line, that would be a consumer's look at value.  

I have 3 x T1's and 2 x T2's.  Some may think that is crazy when looking at value.  

PA is doing good stuff bringing affordable RDS to buyers.
View Quote


Funny you say PA is doing great yet you bash Trijicon in every thread
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 11:01:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Pa is just like the others.........they start to grow and push the envelope cause they feel they are big time now.


Your chicom red dot prob cost you less than $50 a unit.........lifetime warranty is cause they know they charged you 6x what its actually worth.  Sorry guys stick to the $60 price point, your not an aimpoint..........your gear is MADE in china.  When you ACTUALLY start to make stuff in house maybe then you can charge that untill then........uh no.

Unbelievable.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 11:14:58 PM EDT
[#20]
More importantly, when is this stuff gonna be available in FDE
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 12:28:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Pa is just like the others.........they start to grow and push the envelope cause they feel they are big time now.


Your chicom red dot prob cost you less than $50 a unit.........lifetime warranty is cause they know they charged you 6x what its actually worth.  Sorry guys stick to the $60 price point, your not an aimpoint..........your gear is MADE in china.  When you ACTUALLY start to make stuff in house maybe then you can charge that untill then........uh no.

Unbelievable.
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^^THIS^^ Exactly!
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 12:43:31 AM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
I agree wholeheartedly. Vortex and and primary arms have been doing this for while. Prices keep creeping up on every new fancy product introduced. It's getting to the point where there's no real benefit in choosing their chicom stuff vs paying a little bit more for the  GOOD stuff that trijicon, Aimpoint etc make!
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Where do you guys acquire Aimpoint T series and Trijicon MRO's for a "little bit" more than  PA advanced dots?

I mean I guess it's all relative. Currently the PA ADS is $159. MRO and T are at least $475, right?  At least. Even if the PA goes up to $300 that's at least $175.

I guess to some $175(at the very least) is a little bit. Relative to what you make and all that.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 12:53:37 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Pa is just like the others.........they start to grow and push the envelope cause they feel they are big time now.


Your chicom red dot prob cost you less than $50 a unit.........lifetime warranty is cause they know they charged you 6x what its actually worth.  Sorry guys stick to the $60 price point, your not an aimpoint..........your gear is MADE in china.  When you ACTUALLY start to make stuff in house maybe then you can charge that untill then........uh no.

Unbelievable.
View Quote


Sorry. My uncle is the same way. The second he sees a dot is made in China he won't even let me talk. He just starts screaming junk like an old man.

Despite the torture tests and other proof. Doesn't matter. He's been brainwashed by comianies who want him to spend tons on their optics even though he's a couch commando and doesn't need it, and he won't listen to anyone else.

It just screams ignorant. He has no clue how foolish he sounds.  And it's not like he's a dummy either. He's intelligent.

I'm not knocking anyone who wants to spend the big bucks on high end shit. I would too if I had tons of money. But don't try to reassure yourself by claiming the less expensive stuff is junk. It's not. It's pretty close to the high end stuff in terms of durability and as technology improves the gap closes more and more. Just look at the advancements of the PA dot. The first one was a good range toy. The advanced dot is nearly duty grade. The new one?  Could be even better.

Realistically couch commando's (not using that in a derogatory way) don't need more than the advanced dot. The money saved should be used on bullets and training.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 1:09:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Used comp m2s can be had in the $250-$300 range. When I am looking for a red dot and get into that price range I will choose an Aimpoint over anything else.

I have had a few PA micros and a 2.5x compact. I have had a few issues with a few that resulted in returns and everything was made right.  I have carried a few different types of Aimpoints overseas for months at a time and they are near bullet proof. For duty use its Aimpoint. For a cheap range optic under $200, PA is great.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 1:22:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Where do you guys acquire Aimpoint T series and Trijicon MRO's for a "little bit" more than  PA advanced dots?

I mean I guess it's all relative. Currently the PA ADS is $159. MRO and T are at least $475, right?  At least. Even if the PA goes up to $300 that's at least $175.

I guess to some $175(at the very least) is a little bit. Relative to what you make and all that.
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MRO with Larue mount - I have seen at $493.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 4:43:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Sorry. My uncle is the same way. The second he sees a dot is made in China he won't even let me talk. He just starts screaming junk like an old man.

Despite the torture tests and other proof. Doesn't matter. He's been brainwashed by comianies who want him to spend tons on their optics even though he's a couch commando and doesn't need it, and he won't listen to anyone else.

It just screams ignorant. He has no clue how foolish he sounds.  And it's not like he's a dummy either. He's intelligent.

I'm not knocking anyone who wants to spend the big bucks on high end shit. I would too if I had tons of money. But don't try to reassure yourself by claiming the less expensive stuff is junk. It's not. It's pretty close to the high end stuff in terms of durability and as technology improves the gap closes more and more. Just look at the advancements of the PA dot. The first one was a good range toy. The advanced dot is nearly duty grade. The new one?  Could be even better.

Realistically couch commando's (not using that in a derogatory way) don't need more than the advanced dot. The money saved should be used on bullets and training.
View Quote


I don't think anyone on here is saying that just because an optic is made in China it's junk (though it does increase the odds). Also an optic that's made in the USA is not automatically a quality item due to that fact alone. But what IS really an undeniable fact is that companies like Trijicon (made in USA) and Aimpoint (made in Sweden) produce a red dot optic of a certain quality that simply cannot be replicated by a company like PA. Why? Because PA is not designing, engineering, innovating and MANUFACTURING their own optics in house. You can tell yourself "but they come close" all day long. But do they?  I would suggest that guys who have owned and used both tiers of optics would argue they aren't very close (hence the price difference). So call me an elitist but when PA is selling thier advanced dot for close to $200, and what ever their new whizbang one is for $300, yet you can buy a Trijicon MRO for under $500... that's a no-brainer. It literally is just "a little more money". And WAAAAAAAAY more quality.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 5:35:18 AM EDT
[#27]
I do hope PA keeps offering their current MD-ADS line at the $160-170 price range, I figure they will since this is a completely new model.  I really like the idea that this one does not have the push buttons but a knob, I think that will make it a lot more rugged and eliminate the biggest issue that PA/Holosun micros have.  The liftetime warranty isn't what is costing more, it is a completely new sight.  Heck Holosun is the same red dot offered by PA and I believe they offer lifetime warranties on their optics.

While I am fairly new to red dots I have read countless reviews on them and watched tons of videos and feel pretty confident with the PA Advanced/Holosun dots.  The thing is, if the optic fails it isn't like you are likely to get killed even if it is in combat, A lot of times the engagement range is close enough you don't even need to look at any rear sight but just look over the front sight a little.  And everyone that runs a red dot in a combat situation should absolutely have a back up rear sight.  Either a fixed BUIS with a lower 1/3 is a good setup or an absolute cowitness with flip down rear sights.  I also think the red dot should have a QD mount on it as well if in a combat situation, it wouldn't take you but a second to flip that lever and adjust to looking at your irons.  

Now if I had the option of having an Aimpoint T1 or a Primary Arms MD-ADS I of course would choose the Aimpoint, any sane person would.  But when you can not afford that optic there is nothing wrong with the PA/Holosun dots.  Heck even if I had the extra money for the Aimpoint I still think I would choose the PA dots just because I could get 3-4 of them for the same price and the likelihood of it ever mattering is about none.  The majority of the time if there is an issue with the optic it is upon receiving it.  Give it a good test when you get it, try out all of the buttons and make sure everything works as it should and even put it under a little water if you want to make sure it stays sealed with no bubbles and doesn't fog up.  There really isn't a whole lot of internals in a red dot like there are in variable power scopes and I have seen the PA dots beat to hell and back and still hold zero.  I have a VERY hard time believing even the best 1-6 variable scope could be beat around and drug behind a truck and still retain zero like the PA dots can.  That doesn't mean a high end 1-6 scope is a bad option or junk, it just means there are more moving parts that can mess things up.  And when I see people running a name brand variable power scope and say it is rugged enough for combat but a PA dot isn't, it just doesn't make sense to me unless I am missing something.  If you drop your rifle down a cliff chances are that cheap red dot will stay sighted in better then your $1000 scope.  I am not running down variable powers at all, I like them myself.  Just trying to express my opinion of how I feel about things and the way I look at them.  It doesn't mean I am right or wrong, just the way I look at things.  

By the way I just ordered a new PA Holosun ACSS reticle dot for $170 shipped on Ebay, they had a few with blemished mounts and that is why the $50 price decrease.  I am excited to try it out and can see me preferring it over a standard dot especially with a magnifier behind it.  Aimpoint should really come out with a BDC reticle, I think it is a nice addition to have for your combat rifle.  As I stated above, I would trust a red dot with a magnifier behind it more then I would a variable power in a combat situation.  Edited to add, about the post above mine - I have read many of people say that they could not really tell a noticable difference between their Holosun/PA and their Aimpoints.  And a few of them saying they prefer the new Holosun ACSS over their Aimpoints due to liking the new reticle so much.  I have no doubt Aimpoint is overall better quality, but I don't think PA is as far behind as some people think.  I think the QC is probably much better with Aimpoint meaning you have a lot less of a chance of getting a lemon out of the box.. but if you check out your optic when you get it and everything works as it should then I really wouldn't put much difference between them.  I like the PA's as much as the Comp M4's we used in the military.  That is the only Aimpoint I have ever had personal experience with.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 11:26:13 AM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:



MRO with Larue mount - I have seen at $493.
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Ok. So you're at least $200 over. And that's the new $300 PA. Not the current $159 dot.

Just me, but I don't consider that a little bit. Maybe some do?
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 11:58:08 AM EDT
[#29]
I believe the MRO can be had for $400 if you look.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 12:00:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Funny you say PA is doing great yet you bash Trijicon in every thread
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Quoted:
Quoted:


No they didn't.  

Look at the value people are getting from a $60.00.  Demand is high.  The product is good.  Raise the price seems reasonable.  

As for their $300 line, that would be a consumer's look at value.  

I have 3 x T1's and 2 x T2's.  Some may think that is crazy when looking at value.  

PA is doing good stuff bringing affordable RDS to buyers.


Funny you say PA is doing great yet you bash Trijicon in every thread


I have an AccuPower and like it a lot. I'll also buy the new 1-8x.

I think ACOG is trumped by variable options and the MRO has issues but Triji does good stuff.

PA is a lower tier quality so more leniency in evaluating. Just like a CMO is evaluated on a different standard than a Markting Analyst.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 12:13:29 PM EDT
[#31]
As with anything, if you can afford it, buy it.
If you can't afford something, buy a lesser quality, or save up. Just like anything else.
In case you haven't noticed in your reality, pay more, get less. Quality over quantity.

Primary Arms is doing as any other business among us. Go big or go home.

As for features from one brand or another, why can't this have like that has? Can you say "Patent"
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 1:05:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I do hope PA keeps offering their current MD-ADS line at the $160-170 price range, I figure they will since this is a completely new model.  I really like the idea that this one does not have the push buttons but a knob, I think that will make it a lot more rugged and eliminate the biggest issue that PA/Holosun micros have.  The liftetime warranty isn't what is costing more, it is a completely new sight.  Heck Holosun is the same red dot offered by PA and I believe they offer lifetime warranties on their optics.

While I am fairly new to red dots I have read countless reviews on them and watched tons of videos and feel pretty confident with the PA Advanced/Holosun dots.  The thing is, if the optic fails it isn't like you are likely to get killed even if it is in combat, A lot of times the engagement range is close enough you don't even need to look at any rear sight but just look over the front sight a little.  And everyone that runs a red dot in a combat situation should absolutely have a back up rear sight.  Either a fixed BUIS with a lower 1/3 is a good setup or an absolute cowitness with flip down rear sights.  I also think the red dot should have a QD mount on it as well if in a combat situation, it wouldn't take you but a second to flip that lever and adjust to looking at your irons.  

Now if I had the option of having an Aimpoint T1 or a Primary Arms MD-ADS I of course would choose the Aimpoint, any sane person would.  But when you can not afford that optic there is nothing wrong with the PA/Holosun dots.  Heck even if I had the extra money for the Aimpoint I still think I would choose the PA dots just because I could get 3-4 of them for the same price and the likelihood of it ever mattering is about none.  The majority of the time if there is an issue with the optic it is upon receiving it.  Give it a good test when you get it, try out all of the buttons and make sure everything works as it should and even put it under a little water if you want to make sure it stays sealed with no bubbles and doesn't fog up.  There really isn't a whole lot of internals in a red dot like there are in variable power scopes and I have seen the PA dots beat to hell and back and still hold zero.  I have a VERY hard time believing even the best 1-6 variable scope could be beat around and drug behind a truck and still retain zero like the PA dots can.  That doesn't mean a high end 1-6 scope is a bad option or junk, it just means there are more moving parts that can mess things up.  And when I see people running a name brand variable power scope and say it is rugged enough for combat but a PA dot isn't, it just doesn't make sense to me unless I am missing something.  If you drop your rifle down a cliff chances are that cheap red dot will stay sighted in better then your $1000 scope.  I am not running down variable powers at all, I like them myself.  Just trying to express my opinion of how I feel about things and the way I look at them.  It doesn't mean I am right or wrong, just the way I look at things.  

By the way I just ordered a new PA Holosun ACSS reticle dot for $170 shipped on Ebay, they had a few with blemished mounts and that is why the $50 price decrease.  I am excited to try it out and can see me preferring it over a standard dot especially with a magnifier behind it.  Aimpoint should really come out with a BDC reticle, I think it is a nice addition to have for your combat rifle.  As I stated above, I would trust a red dot with a magnifier behind it more then I would a variable power in a combat situation.  Edited to add, about the post above mine - I have read many of people say that they could not really tell a noticable difference between their Holosun/PA and their Aimpoints.  And a few of them saying they prefer the new Holosun ACSS over their Aimpoints due to liking the new reticle so much.  I have no doubt Aimpoint is overall better quality, but I don't think PA is as far behind as some people think.  I think the QC is probably much better with Aimpoint meaning you have a lot less of a chance of getting a lemon out of the box.. but if you check out your optic when you get it and everything works as it should then I really wouldn't put much difference between them.  I like the PA's as much as the Comp M4's we used in the military.  That is the only Aimpoint I have ever had personal experience with.
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Have you handled the really high end 1-6 optics? The only experience I have is with a Razor gen 2. I somehow doubt your $170 red dot is tougher than it. When I owned my Razor I knew i could feel comfortable tossing it out of my car window going 30mph and put it back on the rifle. Unfortunately it is a lot of weight that I could not do, something like 29 ozs (with mount) is crazy just for a 6x top end. But the things are built like ACOGs it feels.

Given your cliff drop scenario, I doubt either would survive a drop off a cliff more importantly I doubt your gun would. Given an abuse until failure test my money is still on the Razor yes I bet the 1400 scope outperforms the under $200 red dot that is a no brainer debate. Now given something proven like the $3000 Leupold MK6 well I would put my money on it being more durable as well. These are all an apple to oranges comparision though. Given the $600 T1 over the $170 PA MD ADS In a side by side abuse test I will bet you can beat up them both and eventually have the T1 come out ahead. 
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 1:06:39 PM EDT
[#33]
I live about 20-30min from Primary arms so I love doing business with them and I don't have to fool with shipping. But when it comes to their optics I have not owned one and don't plan on owning one in the near future. I can see putting a budget optic on a $500-$1000 budget AR just for fun but putting a PA RDS on a 2k AR is like putting Walmart rims on a new Cadillac.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 1:16:16 PM EDT
[#34]
You realize he said under $300? .... Might be $225, $250, $275 etc....Not to mention a lifetime warranty

I don't see the problem here .... Chinese optics have really came along way and are slowly closing the gap

They like several optic companies have different price points for different users
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 3:27:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I believe the MRO can be had for $400 if you look.
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This. I can't justify a PA anything when a MRO with factory mount can regularly be had for the sub $400 range. I bought a new AP Pro recently off the EE for $300.... A T1 with ADM mount for $450. Deals are out there, you just need to know where to look. If you like PA, then you like PA, it's your money. But when PA starts asking for mid-tier pricing, top-tier product can easily be had (used of course) for the same price, if not lower.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 4:35:51 PM EDT
[#36]
How did you get a brand new PRO for 300?  And where are these High 400 dollar range T-1's being sold?  I might be interested in one of them.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 5:07:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How did you get a brand new PRO for 300?  And where are these High 400 dollar range T-1's being sold?  I might be interested in one of them.
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Yeah no kidding .... T1s seem to go for $525-$550 on the EE
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 5:11:55 PM EDT
[#38]
I got burned on the last red dot. A reflex that was dropped from their lineup.
I've even recommended it to friends. ;(
I won't get burned again.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 5:20:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
PA went down the tubes a couple of years ago.
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PA optics get better with each and every release.

The MD06 was $70 IIRC and had a huge following. They made the waterproofing better and used an emitter that was a bit smaller in the MD-RBG II. It was around $80 and justified a $10 increase over the 06. Around the same time they released the MD-ADS which has Aimpoint like battery life (50,000 hours) and even better water proofing and shock rating. It's WELL worth the $159 they're asking and I don't see the new dot being any different. It will likely have the reliability of the Aimpoint, the battery life, quality glass, and excellent customer service that comes with Primary Arms.

What about them "went down the tubes a couple years ago" again?
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 6:12:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This. I can't justify a PA anything when a MRO with factory mount can regularly be had for the sub $400 range. I bought a new AP Pro recently off the EE for $300.... A T1 with ADM mount for $450. Deals are out there, you just need to know where to look. If you like PA, then you like PA, it's your money. But when PA starts asking for mid-tier pricing, top-tier product can easily be had (used of course) for the same price, if not lower.
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This is why threads get derailed and conversations get ruined.

Just stop. $400 MRO's. Give me a break.

And those deals?  Those rarely....rarely happen. I sold my krylon painted T1 with a Fortis mount for $500.

So in reality, no. You're not even close to the price of the current $159 PA dot or the upcoming $300 dot.

Like I said at least $200 more besides a super sale or deal here it there.

And I'm not here to tell anyone what they need but like I said. I'll bet most of us civi's can use and abuse the PA dot and it'll stand up allowing us to spend on ammo and training. Just my 02.  Of course if you can afford more or want to save up that's cool. Not knocking anyone for that. But fir me and I imagine a lot if others it's a cost benefit thing.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 8:01:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Ok. Everyone keeps referring to the PA ADS as being $159. Stop it. It's actually $169 and that is with a low rail-level (no co-witness) mount. So yes, these PA micro dots ARE really "about a $200 optic". Which everyone can agree on is a good amount of performance for your money. But...it doesn't change the fact that a guy CAN get an MRO, a PRO or a ACO for $380-$500 which is literally "just a few more bux". Someone said it already but quality over quantity. What is your affinity for "budget" dots going to end up costing you over decades compared to rhe buy once, cry once philosophy?
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:21:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is why threads get derailed and conversations get ruined.

Just stop. $400 MRO's. Give me a break.

And those deals?  Those rarely....rarely happen. I sold my krylon painted T1 with a Fortis mount for $500.

So in reality, no. You're not even close to the price of the current $159 PA dot or the upcoming $300 dot.

Like I said at least $200 more besides a super sale or deal here it there.

And I'm not here to tell anyone what they need but like I said. I'll bet most of us civi's can use and abuse the PA dot and it'll stand up allowing us to spend on ammo and training. Just my 02.  Of course if you can afford more or want to save up that's cool. Not knocking anyone for that. But fir me and I imagine a lot if others it's a cost benefit thing.
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In the past month I've seen no less than three deals for MROs under $400; Bigtex, AIM, and thebullseye.  Not sure what to make of it, perhaps there is a revision or new  version about to be released.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:24:42 PM EDT
[#43]
I've been very impressed with my PA AMD, stuck it on my CZ Scorpion SBR. Iron sights cowitness nicely so no worries if it would happen to quit, but I doubt it will. I don't have an unlimited fun budget so $200 saved here is $200 applied somewhere else!

Now I just need another one for my 4.5" .22LR upper I just got!
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:27:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Yup Trijicon added a new QD Mount, killfash and flip caps and now the MSRP is $900 ..... Curious to see what the street price of the new MRO Patrol is gonna be
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:37:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


So they're trying to step into  Vortex territory?
Lifetime warranty  no questions asked?

If so.  I still do not see the reasoning behind it.
PA to me as a consumer was always about "cheap red dots"

Not expensive ones made in china with lifetime warranties.
That was   the Vortex territory



The deal is that every new red dot is getting more expensive.
The original red dots they sold were  $60 if my memory serves me correctly. and now theyre  $90 for the same ones.
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Maybe they're trying to step up out of the "budget only" field and into something more?  Seriously, if they're still selling the cheap ones, what are you bitching about?

As for prices going up, when did they originally release their cheap RDS?  It's been years now, IIRC.  Inflation is a bitch, but it's reality.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:39:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I agree wholeheartedly. Vortex and and primary arms have been doing this for while. Prices keep creeping up on every new fancy product introduced. It's getting to the point where there's no real benefit in choosing their chicom stuff vs paying a little bit more for the  GOOD stuff that trijicon, Aimpoint etc make!
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Vortex sells a lot of stuff that IS NOT manufactured in China.  The Razor line is made in Japan and is on par (or sometimes better, IMO) than those "good stuff" brands you're talking about.  Pretty sure some of the new (more expensive) PA scopes are made in Japan as well.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 9:43:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Ok. So you're at least $200 over. And that's the new $300 PA. Not the current $159 dot.

Just me, but I don't consider that a little bit. Maybe some do?
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I've got tens of thousands of dollars invested in firearms and related gear.  Yes, $200 isn't "that much."
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 10:06:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How did you get a brand new PRO for 300?  And where are these High 400 dollar range T-1's being sold?  I might be interested in one of them.
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Easy. You make an offer to the seller based off their asking price, they accept said offer. Sold.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 10:19:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is why threads get derailed and conversations get ruined.

Just stop. $400 MRO's. Give me a break.

And those deals?  Those rarely....rarely happen. I sold my krylon painted T1 with a Fortis mount for $500.

So in reality, no. You're not even close to the price of the current $159 PA dot or the upcoming $300 dot.

Like I said at least $200 more besides a super sale or deal here it there.

And I'm not here to tell anyone what they need but like I said. I'll bet most of us civi's can use and abuse the PA dot and it'll stand up allowing us to spend on ammo and training. Just my 02.  Of course if you can afford more or want to save up that's cool. Not knocking anyone for that. But fir me and I imagine a lot if others it's a cost benefit thing.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


This. I can't justify a PA anything when a MRO with factory mount can regularly be had for the sub $400 range. I bought a new AP Pro recently off the EE for $300.... A T1 with ADM mount for $450. Deals are out there, you just need to know where to look. If you like PA, then you like PA, it's your money. But when PA starts asking for mid-tier pricing, top-tier product can easily be had (used of course) for the same price, if not lower.


This is why threads get derailed and conversations get ruined.

Just stop. $400 MRO's. Give me a break.

And those deals?  Those rarely....rarely happen. I sold my krylon painted T1 with a Fortis mount for $500.

So in reality, no. You're not even close to the price of the current $159 PA dot or the upcoming $300 dot.

Like I said at least $200 more besides a super sale or deal here it there.

And I'm not here to tell anyone what they need but like I said. I'll bet most of us civi's can use and abuse the PA dot and it'll stand up allowing us to spend on ammo and training. Just my 02.  Of course if you can afford more or want to save up that's cool. Not knocking anyone for that. But fir me and I imagine a lot if others it's a cost benefit thing.


No intention of derailing anything. OP is in regards to PA prices rising to near Aimpoint/MRO pricing. My point is there are great deals on the used market for better product. And FYI, the sub $400 MRO with mount can still be had at Aim with coupon code mrodeal.
Link Posted: 1/25/2017 10:51:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Easy. You make an offer to the seller based off their asking price, they accept said offer. Sold.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
How did you get a brand new PRO for 300?  And where are these High 400 dollar range T-1's being sold?  I might be interested in one of them.


Easy. You make an offer to the seller based off their asking price, they accept said offer. Sold.


The ranges I've seen are more $375 for the PRO and $500 for a T1 at the lower ends
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