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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/2/2005 5:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 5:12:29 AM EDT by Gorilla]
I am totally fascinated with the .17RF that is now available, but THE COST! Yikes. Do you guys think that as these rounds become more popular, that the cost of manufacture will go down? I hesitate to mess with .17 (I do not hunt varmints) when I can buy 9mm cheaper.

This may have been flogged earlier, but how viable is a .17 AR platform? I know Lakeside is going to offer a .17 conversion for their LM7 upper, but I'm wondering about a Ciener-like .17 conversion for a standard AR. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:15:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 12:50:46 PM EDT by AR-fan]
Yes, the ammo costs more but if it ever gets even half as popular as 22 rimfire it will come down in price. The big thing about the .17's is they are very accurate so they are more for well placed shots instead of plinking and blasting. The Ciener unit can be made to work with the .17 Mach2 but requires a bit of work due to fact that a lot of weight (around 2oz.) needs to be added to or connected to the Ciener bolt. The best conversion unit for the .17 Mach2 is the M261 -- for some reason no weight needs to be added to the bolt so it can switch back and forth from 22lr to .17 Mach2 and back. Of course a special barrel is needed for the Mach2 round. Oly Arms has an upper called a 22/17 partner that uses what looks like the M261 unit with barrel liners added to the M261 chamber adapter/barrel. The upper has a bored out barrel that these barrel liners can slide into so you can shoot the 22 cheap stuff or the more accurate .17 stuff. I've built both types of systems and the main reason I like the Ciener is the 30 round mags but the way I did the Ciener it can't convert back to 22lr -- but I can fix that too but I actually prefer to shoot just the .17 Mach2 with the Ciener. The only problem with you doing your own setup is the total cost of all the tools required. It would actually be cheaper to buy a factory made (Oly Arms) setup. By the way -- the Ciener mags and the M261 mags both feed the .17 Mach2 ammo even better than 22lr ammo!

This is a picture of a .17 caliber liner that is part-way into a drilled out GI barrel and a drilled out M261 chamberadapter/barrel on the liner. They are just slid into each other to kinda show where to start.


The same can be done with the Ciener. There was a fellow that just posted a spring loaded ball bearing lockup setup he used actually for eliminating bounce when shooting the Ciener in full auto -- This might also be a way to delay the bolt enough, when the round is fired, to eliminate the need for extra weight in the Ciener bolt!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 1:28:21 PM EDT
If you watch the sales at all the usual places (natches,midway,wholesale hunter ect) and /or buy case lots you can shave the price quite a bit. It's kinda like buying a case of xm193 at wholesalehunter vs buying it a box (of 20) at a time from your local gunstore. If you find a brand you like ask your local guy what he can do you for if you buy a whole case. I work with a couple of the local stores and although their regular of the shelf prices for ammo is kinda steep they have done well for me on case lots.
Remember that 17HRM has a real jacketed bullet that is way more expensive than the plain lump of coated lead in a regular rimfire.They also only make and sell a drop in the bucket ammount compared to the .22lr
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:48:16 AM EDT
That's great info guys, thanks! I had no idea the .17 would work in the Ciener mags. That conversion is definitely on my "Must Do" list. I'd like to machine a dedicated .17 bbl for an AR and try to get the Ciener to run well, perhaps ultimately being able to use the same kit (perhaps with a spring swap) with both .22 and .17.

What is the report like? Pretty loud? Moderate?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 9:25:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 9:50:18 AM EDT by AR-fan]

Originally Posted By Gorilla:
That's great info guys, thanks! I had no idea the .17 would work in the Ciener mags. That conversion is definitely on my "Must Do" list. I'd like to machine a dedicated .17 bbl for an AR and try to get the Ciener to run well, perhaps ultimately being able to use the same kit (perhaps with a spring swap) with both .22 and .17.

What is the report like? Pretty loud? Moderate?



Gorilla -- you're the guy that did the ball bearing anti-bounce/lockup device! That design could be just the design needed to eliminate the extra weight. The picture below is how I did the Ciener bolt and that pushrod is soft soldered in place into that little attachment on the spring guide tube -- I later thought about threading it so it could be removed and switched back to 22lr.

The rod pushes against a carbine buffer that had the weight changed to 1040 grains. The spring used is a carbine spring in a full rifle length buffer tube. I did try your ball bearing design but I had to do it with junk parts I had laying around and it did work on and off but I figure I was not exact with the notch position so the lockup was off a bit.

The picture below is a test carbine length upper I use with slide-in barrels for the Ciener. The old GI barrel is drilled out to allow liners to slide in. The bolt and barrel in the picture are the .17 mach2 test stuff.

I later drilled out my 20" SS Kuehl barrel and relined and chambered it in .17 mach2. I don't want to tell you how well it shoots at 50 yards -- you won't believe it!

See if you can apply that ball bearing design to a Ciener that you will use for the .17 Mach2 -- I think you may have a great idea for making the Ciener unit work with the .17 Mach2.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:47:17 AM EDT
AR-Fan,

That 17 Liner looks great. I have a little experience on the user end with liners for the Contender, and they seemed to have issues with the liner/barrel fit. The ones that I had used an O-ring at the end of the barrel to allow for a tight fit, that could still be removed. The problem was that the O-ring left a bit to be desired in terms of repeatability and POI. You show that your's is removable. Is this to have one "junk" 556 barrel that can be used with several inserts of various flavor? I would assume that it would be easy to permanently install the liner for folks like me who would want the highest level of accuracy and repeatability. Yes?

Craig

(sorry about the hijack)
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:59:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 9:59:45 AM EDT by AR-fan]

Originally Posted By Bearbait1:
AR-Fan,

That 17 Liner looks great. I have a little experience on the user end with liners for the Contender, and they seemed to have issues with the liner/barrel fit. The ones that I had used an O-ring at the end of the barrel to allow for a tight fit, that could still be removed. The problem was that the O-ring left a bit to be desired in terms of repeatability and POI. You show that your's is removable. Is this to have one "junk" 556 barrel that can be used with several inserts of various flavor? I would assume that it would be easy to permanently install the liner for folks like me who would want the highest level of accuracy and repeatability. Yes?

Craig

(sorry about the hijack)



The upper does have a junk GI barrel that was drilled out to accept a barrel liner of many different types of ammo and conversion kits. It can be made permanent but this particular upper is my test upper.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:50:15 PM EDT
Thanks

Craig
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