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Posted: 10/16/2004 2:32:46 PM EST
To those that bought stocks from me.

To answer some of the questions I'm getting:

1.) Why aren't the stocks marked (nn) under the release lever?
2.) Why aren't the buffer tubes grey?
3.) Why don't the buffers have yellow or orange bumpers?

I have 10 Colt SP1 carbines, some of the stocks are
marked with the (nn) under the release lever and some
are not. Some are also marked on the reverse side
under the release lever (newton newman and a #
1-4....most I have are #2 or 4) some have no markings under the latch as well.


The buffer tubes on my factory Colt carbines range in color from
really light grey(almost green) to dark charcoal
black(like the current parts made). I even have
several Colt carbines and rifles were the uppers and
lowers are way off in color match. Dark upper with
light lowers or vis versa.....with Colt it seems like
anything is possible. The early buffers(1965-1980/81) had orange or
yellow bumpers while the carbines I have from
1983/84/85 have the newer clear style.

These stocks are from a Colt 1983 FMS contract to Israel
for their M16A1 carbines. Maybe the finish was the
required spec....or maybe that was the color Colt was
using at that time?...don't really know...that's the only information I have, that they were sold to Israel and that's were they came from.

The tubes appear to be in spec.(1.13"-1.15") I took a Colt XM177 stock, Colt Sp1 carbine stock, Colt
M4 fiberite, Colt M4 enhanced and a Vltor stock and
they all fit on the tube with little or no
wobble......something that doesn't work with
aftermarket tubes....these stocks will not fit on the Bushmaster M4 buffer tube I have.

I also compared the fit and finish of the stocks to
units I have attached to carbines and they appear to
be exactly the same sans the markings.
Since 1983 was the last year Colt contracted to make
this style of stock...maybe they contracted with someone other than Newton Newman or maybe it was a rush order and QC wasn't as important for this contract.


The stocks came in white cardboard boxs, the stocks were wrapped in brown/tan packing paper and the buffer and spring were seperate in side the box. The boxes were marked with two stickers( one on the side and one on the top of the box) as follows:

NSN 1005-087-8988.....................Correct NSN for XM177E2/GAU-5/M16A1 carbines
P/N 62359..................................correct Colt and Military part # for the sliding stock assembly
Stock, Butt, Sliding...........................correct nomenclature
DAAA10-83-A-5291...........................take that as a 1983 contract ?
1 EACH
COLT INDUSTRIES.............................take that as Colt manufactured or distributed it.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:31:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 4:12:47 PM EST by scottryan]
I am one person who invested $570 in 3 of these stocks and I am completely disatisfied with the stocks and how Colt_653 is taking care of the situtation.

First, the stocks do not have correct buffer tubes. They come with cheap, shinny buffer tubes with no dry film lube inside of it. There is also bare metal inside the buffer tube. The stock do not have any markings under the adjustment latch. They are finished in a cheap black finish. It is not the same finish as on a real SP1 carbine stock. It seems more like a thick spray paint.

After contacting Colt_653, he claimed these stocks were Colt from some "Israeli contract". No mention of this was made in the original advertisement for the stocks. No mention was made that these stocks would be different than SP1 carbine stocks with the proper markings and features. He also claimed he sent detailed pictures out to everyone who ordered a stock before he shipped the stocks. I never received any pictures. He claims these are real Colt stocks because they came in a box that has a "Colt" label on it, which looks like it could be made on any computer with label stickers.

He refuses to offer a refund, claiming he had to pay for these up front and never made much of a profit. He will not trade these for real SP1 carbine stocks that he has on some of his guns. If he thinks these stocks he sold are so sweet, then how come he will not put them on his own guns?

I have pictures and emails to back up everything I am saying.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:03:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 10:39:02 PM EST by uxb]
My answers to questions to Colt-653 regarding COLT XM177E2 Stocks on the EE:

From: uxb
To: Colt-653

Subject: Colt XM177E2 Stocks Question
Date: Oct 16, 2004 4:20 PM
Colt-653

Got my stock yesterday and everything looked good. Went to install it on my XM last evening and came up with some questions you might be able to answer;

1) Colt Mil-Spec Buffer tubes are 1.15 inch external diameter. Mine mic's at 1.149 to 1.153 inches which is well within acceptable range. What is of concern is the original Colt buffer tubes for the XM series would have had dry-film lube (where this one does not), and the very end of the buffer tube internally (where the weep hole is) is bare metal without anodizing (???)

2) My other concern is the aluminum vinyl-acetate coated buttstocks I saw issued in Central America and the Middle East made by Colt were all marked with a double "N" beneath the latch, much like the old Colt M4s were marked "1N". These buttstocks have no markings beneath the latch identifying them as Colt manufactured.

Is it possible that your overseas supplier pulled a fast one on you, as these do not appear to original Colt XM stocks?

I don't know if any of your other buyers have brought this to your attention, but with a good deal of time spent with 7th Special Forces MilGroup in Central America and carrying an XM everyday for two years, I should be able to recognize a Colt XM stock or one of it's variants.

Please update me on this situation as I would like to know the scoop.

Sincerely,

uxb


-----Original Message-----
From: Colt-653
Sent: Oct 16, 2004 6:03 PM
To: uxb

Subject: Re: Colt XM177E2 Stocks Question

uxb,

I have 10 Colt SP1 carbines, some of the stocks are marked with the (nn) under the release lever and some are not. Some are also marked on the reverse side under the release lever (newton newman and a # 1-4....most I have are #2 or 4) some have no markings.

The buffer tubes on my carbines range in color from really light grey(almost green) to dark charcoal
black(like the current parts made). I even have several Colt carbines and rifle were the uppers and
lowers are way off in color match. Dark upper with light lowers or vis versa.....with Colt it seems
like anything is possible. The early buffers had orange or yellow bumpers while the carbines I have from 1983/84/85 have the newer clear style.

The stocks are from a Colt 1983 FMS contract to Israel for their M16A1 carbines. Maybe the finish was the required spec....or maybe that was the color Colt was using at that time?...don't really know. The tubes appear to be in spec. I took a Colt XM177 stock, Colt M4 fiberite, Colt M4 enhanced and a Vltor stock and they all fit on the tube with little or no wobble......something that doesn't work with aftermarket tubes.

I also compared the fit and finish of the stocks to units I have attached to carbines and they appear to be exactly the same. Since 1983 was the last year Colt contracted to make this style of stock...maybe they contracted with some one other than Newton Newman or maybe it was a rush
order and QC wasn't as important.

Hope this helps

Colt-653

From: uxb
To: Colt-653

Subject: Re: Colt XM177E2 Stocks Question
Date: Oct 16, 2004 8:47 PM
Colt-653

I understand where you are coming from, however, for historical accuracy, I would like to switch my stock for one of the remaining ten SP1s that you have. The buffer tube I have is within acceptable mil-specs, except it is not dry-lubed and the rear section is not anodized at all. I understand this may have been sub-contracted out to the Israelis and QC may not have been up to standards, but that was not what I was led to believe from the wording in your ad.

I would prefer a different buffer tube that is completely anodized, within mil-spec diameter, and a lighter grey if you have it as opposed to the ink-black I received with bare aluminum showing inside the buffer tube.

I would also like to exchange my unmarked vinyl-acetate coated buttstock for one in like condition marked alpha, numerically, or both, as this is what I was led to believe I was buying.

If you have one that fits this description, I would like to exchange it for my current unmarked one.

If you do not have one that meets the criteria set forth in your ad (which would include alpha-numeric marking under the latch as well as complete - not partial - anodizing of the buffer tube) and was sub-contracted out and not actually made by Colt, I would like to return my existing stock for a full refund.

I would prefer an exchange vs. a refund, but that is up to you. Let me know, I am willing to work with you on this...

uxb


-----Original Message----- BOLD LETTERS ARE MINE
From: Colt-653
Sent: Oct 16, 2004 10:34 PM
To: uxb

Subject: Re: Colt XM177E2 Stocks Question

uxb,

The stocks I have are factory staked to the carbines they came on so I won't be removing them....sorry not going to ruin their vaule by breaking the stake. The only other Colt Aluminum stocks I have is the extra unit I ordered
does it have alpha or numeric markings??? or a used 75% condition XM177(stock) only, it is marked Newton Newman under the latch but is not marked(nn) on the side. I did not pay for a 75% condition XM177 stock only. I paid $200 for a like- new Colt XM177E1 stock, complete. What I received gives me no indication that I have paid you $200 for an original Colt as advertised.

Okay, Brad, let me get this straight. I have requested a replacement vinyl-acetate stock with either alpha or numeric markings to replace the supposed Colt stock you sold me. You do not have to break the factory stake to remove the buttstock (which you are sorry in that it would "ruin their value by breaking the stake"). All you have to do is pull the latch down, slip off the proper buttstock and exchange it for an unmarked one you sent me.


I'm also not giving refunds on the stocks, I can't get a refund from the vendor as it was an as is were is deal. It was also a special buy and I made approximatly $5 on each stock, it's been hardly worth my time to sell 9 stocks to board members. That was your choice. You asked who was interested in one at that price and I replied that I was. I have no control over profit or loss on the prices you set. I should have some control over receiving goods as advertised, and am yet to be convinced by an un-marked poorly-anodized buffer tube that I have done so. I will post pics tomorrow that show each stock I have attached to my carbines to show that there is variations in markings,finish of the stock and the tube I also have a Colt 2 position M4 fiberite stock(Came from SAW in AZ) that has the same tube as came on these units....so the tubes are Colt manufactured. The buffer tubes are within Mil-spec dimensions, are the same specs as my Crane, LMT, and two other Colts, but in twenty-five years of dealing with XMs and CAR15s, I have yet to see one that had bare aluminum showing internally from poor anodizing.

Sorry to be a stickler, (sorry to be a stickler????) You never sent me pics and I was one of the first guys to respond that I wanted one. All I got from you was the assurance that these were okay:

-----Original Message-----
From: colt-653
Sent: Sep 17, 2004 11:28 PM
To: uxb

Subject: AR15.Com Email :: Colt-653 :: Colt XM177E2
Stocks

I got a sample stock in today, and everything looks good. I posted details in the EE but figured I'd send out follow up emails to those that emailed me. Price is $185 each plus shipping. Let me know if you're still interested and how many units you want.
Shipping runs $5.85 per stock. Price is good till Oct 1.


The above email arrived without pics that you said were sent and even the email makes no mention of pics or attachments, just "everything looks good". Had you actually sent pics I might have questioned this sale a little closer.

There is nothing that leads me to believe that these aren't Colt.

If this is true, and you have no doubt these stocks were made by Colt, please explain this statement from your previous email, "Since 1983 was the last year Colt contracted to make this style of stock...maybe they contracted with some one other than Newton Newman or maybe it was a rush order and QC wasn't as important."

Well, it's important to me when I'm paying $200 bucks to make an accurate historical representation that may be contracted by someone other than Colt and was rushed and QC wasn't as important.

The stocks match the finish of Colt stocks, the are in Colt marked boxes and as far as I know only Colt was allowed to sell M16 parts to Israel via FMS sales till well after 1995. This in no way affects my complaint of a "Colt" buffer tube without proper internal anodizing or a "Colt" vinyl-acetate coated buttstock that does not have the correct alphanumeric identifiers verifying it as a Colt. You say you have some? Switch one out with mine. You don't want to un-stake a proper buffer tube because it will hurt its value? Pay to have mine re-anodized.

I will trade your stock for other New Colt I have plenty of Colt parts.

I have no need for any new parts to build a retro-rifle. or Some Bushmaster parts I have
sorry, I paid $200 bucks for "Colt", not Bushmaster, but I can't give a refund.

I am disappointed. Most businessmen would give a refund if there were a legitimate problem (and I feel mine is legitimate), so this statement makes a direct reflection of your business ethics.

If you'd like a list of parts let me know.

The parts I would like are as follows:
1) Two-position mil-spec buffer tube, properly anodized, in like-new condition
2) One "Colt" vinyl-acetate covered buttstock properly alpha-numerically marked identifying it as "Colt", and it wouldn't be that hard to "slip" one off your staked buffer tube and exchange it fot mine with no markings at all.

I did not receive what I paid for, and I expect an amicable solution.

uxb
7th SFGA
El Salvador '83-84

Also, remove my name from that "Hold list" if the other buttstock is in the condition this one is in.
uxb


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:23:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 11:01:30 PM EST by scottryan]

The buffer tubes on my factory Colt carbines range in color from
really light grey(almost green) to dark charcoal
black(like the current parts made). I even have
several Colt carbines and rifles were the uppers and
lowers are way off in color match. Dark upper with
light lowers or vis versa.....with Colt it seems like
anything is possible. The early buffers(1965-1980/81) had orange or
yellow bumpers while the carbines I have from
1983/84/85 have the newer clear style.



The statement "anything is possible with Colt" is a bunch of BS. Colt has specs just like any other manufacuter of any product. Of all the Colt AR products I have owned or do own, all follow the same spec in reguards to manufacturing processes and finishing from one to another and I have never seen an exception. I highly doubt Colt would put out such a crappy buffer tube when all other buffer tubes are properly finished. Why would they take time to have 2 differerent specs for the same product?


These stocks are from a Colt 1983 FMS contract to Israel
for their M16A1 carbines. Maybe the finish was the
required spec....or maybe that was the color Colt was
using at that time?...don't really know...that's the only information I have, that they were sold to Israel and that's were they came from.



You never mentioned anything about a contract. You said they were Colt


The tubes appear to be in spec.(1.13"-1.15") I took a Colt XM177 stock, Colt Sp1 carbine stock, Colt
M4 fiberite, Colt M4 enhanced and a Vltor stock and
they all fit on the tube with little or no
wobble......something that doesn't work with
aftermarket tubes....these stocks will not fit on the Bushmaster M4 buffer tube I have.



The tubes do not have the proper contour from the main body to the rail.


I also compared the fit and finish of the stocks to
units I have attached to carbines and they appear to
be exactly the same sans the markings.
Since 1983 was the last year Colt contracted to make
this style of stock...maybe they contracted with someone other than Newton Newman or maybe it was a rush order and QC wasn't as important for this contract.



Once again, you never mentioned anything about quality control or contracts.


The stocks came in white cardboard boxs, the stocks were wrapped in brown/tan packing paper and the buffer and spring were seperate in side the box. The boxes were marked with two stickers( one on the side and one on the top of the box) as follows:

NSN 1005-087-8988.....................Correct NSN for XM177E2/GAU-5/M16A1 carbines
P/N 62359..................................correct Colt and Military part # for the sliding stock assembly
Stock, Butt, Sliding...........................correct nomenclature
DAAA10-83-A-5291...........................take that as a 1983 contract ?
1 EACH
COLT INDUSTRIES.............................take that as Colt manufactured or distributed it.



Label looks like something I can make on a computer. Looks like some cheesy way to make this stuff look authentic.

The bottom line...

It doesn't matter if these stocks are Colt and it doesn't matter that you got them from some super secret place in Israel. It doesn't matter if you are out of money. You made the decisions. You should have known you were dealing with people who are highly knowledgable about AR-15s and are looking for something authentic to build or restore an obscure variant of the AR-15. You should have known we would catch all these issues because we know what we are dealing with. You try to bullshit us like some dealer at a gunshow.

These excuses you are using don't negate the fact that these stocks are not as advertised and are pieces of shit and I should get my money back.


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:43:50 PM EST
Quote from Scott Ryan:


The tubes do not have the proper contour from the main body to the rail.



I just checked mine. You are absolutely correct. Improper contour for a correct Colt tube. I. too am requesting a full refund. The product does not fit the description as advertised, and I have been deceived - intentionally or not...as this item was misrepresented as something it wasn't.

uxb
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:52:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 10:59:08 PM EST by scottryan]
Furthermore......


These stocks look like those cheap China made aftermarket aluminum stocks that are all over the place and sell for $30. They look like someone took one of those and put a few thick coats of paint on it.

The more I examine the stocks, the more I think this is the case. They looked like something done up in a garage with can of Krylon with boxes to match.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:35:56 AM EST
bump
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:48:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 10:22:23 AM EST by Str8shot]
I too bought one of these stocks from (sellers name deteted pending receipt of promised refund) and I'm also very dissatisfied with it. I was expecting exactly what he promised in his posts, both on the AR15 forum and on the EE. I am sending him an e-mail demanding a full refund.

Of some interest to the rest of you buyers -

I believe that I have solved the origin of these stocks. A little over one year ago I noticed an ad in Shotgun News from Essential Arms Co. offering "Military Dimension Smooth Black 2 Pos." collapsable CAR stocks for sale. I ordered one from them at the price of $115.00 and received it quickly. I needed it for a rather pristine SP1 Carbine that I bought which was missing the original stock.

The Essential Arms Co. stock was of good quality and served its purpose until a proper ORIGINAL Colt stock might be available that would allow me to correctly restore this rifle. This Essential Arms Co. stock appears to be identical to the stock that I just received from (sellers name deleted pending receipt of promised refund) in every respect! I'd be willing to wager that E.A.Co. is the manufacturer of the stocks that have been represented to us as "original Colt".

I suggest that we all should join forces and institute some type of legal action as a group if (sellers name deleted pending receipt of promised refund) is not immediately forthcomong with full refunds to every purchaser that demands one. I happen to be on a friendly basis with my local Postmaster, and will consult him on Monday to see if he could be of any help, especially since my payment was made by USPS Money Order.

I'll keep everyone informed, meanwhile let's contact each other by e-mail.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:51:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 4:13:31 PM EST by scottryan]
Got a response Colt_653?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:55:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:57:10 AM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
I too bought one of these stocks from Brad Reickes, and I'm also very dissatisfied with it. I was expecting exactly what he promised in his posts, both on the AR15 forum and on the EE. I am sending him an e-mail demanding a full refund.

Of some interest to the rest of you buyers -

I believe that I have solved the origin of these stocks. A little over one year ago I noticed an ad in Shotgun News from Essential Arms Co. offering "Military Dimension Smooth Black 2 Pos." collapsable CAR stocks for sale. I ordered one from them at the price of $115.00 and received it quickly. I needed it for a rather pristine SP1 Carbine that I bought which was missing the original stock.

The Essential Arms Co. stock was of good quality and served its purpose until a proper ORIGINAL Colt stock might be available that would allow me to correctly restore this rifle. This Essential Arms Co. stock appears to be identical to the stock that I just received from Brad Reickes in every respect! I'd be willing to wager that E.A.Co. is the manufacturer of the stocks that have been represented to us as "original Colt".




Now that I think of it, that is exact where the stocks came from. I remember hearing about this and I knew that's where he was getting his stocks for his XM177E2 kits which he was selling earlier on this board.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:01:43 AM EST
I am soooo glad I was out of money when this deal popped up...
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:15:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 9:19:00 AM EST by uxb]
Quote from scottryan:


Got a response Brad?



This was his response to me... "...I can't give a refund."

I believe this is the same response he has demonstrated to the others who have contacted him and notified me of his response...

I want a full and complete refund.

These are not what was advertised, whether we were intentionally misled (I certainly hope not) or not.

Brad, please address not only my concerns and issues, but as a businessman on ARFCOM EE. there seems to be some explaining to do for others as well as restitution.

This is unacceptable and gives internet dealing a bad name, especially if it's someone who has had positive feedback in the past who's behavior and response to concerns from people who's money he has taken (did I say "Taken"? I meant "accepted") has suddenly gone tango uniform.

If you can't come up with an original Colt vinyl-acetate coated two-position XM177 stock, and have it delivered to my door, you better be sending me all of my funds plus the six bucks to ship this back to you.

uxb
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:45:48 AM EST
I am very inerested in seeing how this turns out, as I am seriously considering buying the MAK-90 he is selling in the EE. However, if this isn't resolved soon, I will definitely pass!

Hopefully this will work out for everyone involved. It's possible he didn't realize the stocks weren't authentic Colt parts, and had no intentions of misleading anyone. However, it is his obligation to ensure the items he sells are properly and accurately advertised.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:52:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 10:06:41 AM EST by Colt-653]
You guys want a refund. Fine send them back but I'm not paying for shipping, I posted pics, posted the best discription possible and in full faith sent you what I believe to be Colt stocks. From every indication I have these are Colt stocks. I also will not destroy a Colt factory Carbine by removing a stock and it's buffer tube from the lower as some of you have suggested I do.

By the way thanks for posting my personal information on the board(which violates board code by the way).

Return your stocks by the end of this week and I will refund the purchase price minus shipping via USPS.


I will be posting pics of these stocks compared to Colt stocks I have to show everyone what I'm talking about.


Thanks to all the "experts" out there, funny how some of you guys email me asking questions about the XM177 series, but now you're the experts.................?

Here's the add with pic I posted in the EE with a pic of the stocks I posted before they shipped:

I have the opportunity to buy 50-75 Brand New Old Stock Colt XM177E2/SP1 carbine Vinyl Acetate (Rubber) coated stocks made in the 1970's. Because I have to import these and pay for them upfront I plan on doing this as a group buy so I’m not out of pocket thousands of $$$$$.





These stocks are new never attached factory Colt in Colt packaging. They are complete and come on a 2- position tube with carbine buffer and spring. Price should be some where in the $175-195 range and will include shipping. Used take offs are running $250+ so the price should be attractive. Time frame is within the next 30-45 days.

If you’re interested check out the group buy section of the EE in the next few days for details and pics.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:24:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Colt-653:
You guys want a refund. Fine send them back but I'm not paying for shipping, I posted pics, posted the best discription possible and in full faith sent you what I believe to be Colt stocks. From every indication I have these are Colt stocks.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. Your original ad states "50-75 Brand New Old Stock Colt XM177E2/SP1 stocks", but now you are stating that you were simply selling stocks you "believe to be Colt stocks"?

Furthermore, it would probably be a good idea to refund shipping costs, sort of a good will jesture. It would probably go a long way towards resolving the issue. This is simply my opinion, though...
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 10:30:08 AM EST
Colt-653

By your request I have just deleted your name from my post on this thread. By doing so, I fully expect you to refund my money immediately upon your receipt of the stock.

str8shot
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:22:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 12:26:00 PM EST by Colt-653]
The following are pics of a Colt 2 position firberite stock bought directly from SAW back in 1999. As you can see the stock is marked (N). The tube on this unit is exactly the same as on the Aluminum stocks I sent out. Don’t think Ken and Tina Elmore are substituting parts. The tube has the same dark black anodizing and has bare aluminum at the rear of the tube. After checking several of my Colt Sp1 carbines with factory staked stocks some of them also have bare aluminum at the end of the buffer tube (not as a result of wear as these are basically unfired)





The following is a pic of the Aluminum stock in question along with a Colt 2 and 4 postion stock that were both bought from SAW





as you can see in the pics the tubes on the top two stocks are identical. The Fiberite stock is Colt (Bought from SAW as discussed above)

The following is a pic of a Colt XM177E2 take off stock. It is not marked (nn) under the latch. The (nn) marking is not always present…..it’s a quick way of telling if the stock is Colt, but not all Aluminum stocks made have it, just as all are not marked under the latch.






Everyone seems to be a little confused about the term Colt made. Colt never made these stocks, they were contracted out to a firm called Newton Newman that did the casting and then they were shipped to a company called Plastronics(not the same company in Malaysia that shows up in a google search) that coated them with the Vinyl Acetate finish.



Also for those that think these are the replica stocks I sold with my kits they aren’t:



The stocks that came with my kits had 4 position, non military spec tubes, the current castle nut style locking ring and the finish was close but was fairly thick and not as shiny as the Colt stocks.

I think I know a little more about the Colt XM177/SP1 carbine series then other people on this board. In fact one of the individuals that bought a stock from me and proclaims to be an “expert” emails me quite often asking questions about the XM177 series……if you’re such an expert why are you contacting me??????????????

As I said before I’m offering a refund, but I’m not covering shipping. I posted pics of the stocks before funds were sent in and as far as I can tell these are Colt Stocks. They look like Colt stocks, The dimensions and finish are correct, and they came in the standard white cardboard boxes that were marked Colt…just as I remember them when I bought Colt Sp1 stocks from Campbell Police Supply back in the early 1980’s

I’ve always had great references on this board and have always gone above and beyond for those that have bought from me and I have the EE rating to prove it.


Link Posted: 10/17/2004 12:30:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:02:55 PM EST
Fixed your link for you:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=109&t=227079

UXB might only have 13 good marks but I have done a few deals with him and find him to be completely honest and trustworthy, if he says that there is a problem, there is.

Good EE feedback is important but that doesn't mean there is not a problem. I have a decent feedback myself. But like most people that like to wheel and deal, every so often a problem creeps up, its how you fix them that makes the difference.

YMMV, JC
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:10:26 PM EST
So you think posting personal information is against board rules? How about screwing over some board members out of several hundred dollars for some piece of shit stocks?

Are you going to find me replacement SP1 carbine stocks. I had to sell two 90% SP1 carbine stocks, hoping I would get better ones with this group buy, but now I don't have any SP1 carbine stocks!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:12:12 PM EST
Collectors are wacky. $200 for an old 2POS stock???
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:24:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:



I think I know a little more about the Colt XM177/SP1 carbine series then other people on this board. In fact one of the individuals that bought a stock from me and proclaims to be an “expert” emails me quite often asking questions about the XM177 series……if you’re such an expert why are you contacting me??????????????





Ok, so you want to start this shit, well here it goes. I contacted you several times reguarding the XM177E2 barrel profile. I was trying to determine the proper diameter for an XM177E2 barrel past the front sight. We had a lengthy discussion on barrel profile which you were wrong and I proved it with pictures of a real XM177E2 with .615" diameter barrel from SAW and a few other pictures others have given me. Also the barrel profile is obvious larger than .570" as you can tell in the 12th edition of Small Arms of the World. So you were wrong about that.

You claimed you had blueprints from Colt of the XM177E2 and barrel pictures showing a .570" diameter past the front sight. You claimed you couldn't send the pictures or blueprints because you signed some super secret contract with Colt (yeah, just like these POS stocks, see a pattern?). You never came though with any of this and your credability is shit now.

So you were wrong then and wrong now.

I will definately be sending my stocks back and I will not put up with anymore BS.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:29:34 PM EST
I didn't screw over anyone. I told you to send the stocks back and I would refund you the cost minus shipping.....how is that screwing you over?????????????

As a special order I should ask for a restock/return fee just like most vendors do....most vendors would tell you too bad you ordered it it's yours.....especially on a special order.

I'm not a dealer, was just passing on what I thought was good deal. I put one of these stocks on a Bushmaster lower and ran 500 rounds through it and had zero problems.....Like I've said over and over...these appear to be Colt stocks and when compared to stocks I know are Colt they pass the test. Sorry you guys don't believe me or the information or pics I've posted.

Scottryan………. I never told you to sell your stocks, you sold them for your own reasons. You've suddenly become an expert on Colt products, yet you seem to ask me questions all the time about the Colt XM177 series.....are you asking me to test me or are you asking me because you don't know the answer???????? I've gone out of my way to respond to your posts as well as private emails...even after you've been short and can't wait a day or so for me to post or email a response.

The stocks I sent are not pieces of shit... guess no matter what I post information or pic wise you won't be happy. The tubes are within Colt specs, the finish matchs several Colt Sp1 carbines I have and they pass the function test as described above.

My record stands....wasn't attacking anyone else’s record....just posting the feedback I have on this board. I think my feedback and the various amounts of information I’ve posted speak for themselves.

Anyone that wants a refund on the Colt Aluminum stock I sent out will get a refund minus shipping provided that I have them back in the same condition as sent by the end of this week ( Oct 22, 2004).

I'm not hiding anything, misrepresenting anything and I'm being more than fair by offering a refund.

I'm even posting it all on the board so there is no he said this, or that.

Anyone that wants a refund on the Colt Aluminum stock I sent out will get a refund minus shipping provided that I have them back in the same condition as I sent them by the end of this week ( Oct 22, 2004). Please send it via a source that allows tracking and provide me with a tracking # so I know when to expect it.


Link Posted: 10/17/2004 1:59:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 1:59:39 PM EST by Colt-653]
scottryan.....at least once a week or more you were posting questions about the XM177 series....I answered them as fast as I could......even when you were a jackass and would get pissed via email if I didn't immediately respond….guess me trying to be the nice guy and help a fellow board member out was really worth my time.

I sent you various pictures and told you were you could go to obtain the information you were looking for…. ie various websites, Black Rifle 1(Pg 352 for bbl dia) and II.

I even sent you detailed pics of a friend’s factory Colt Model 639 so you could see the bbl was the same dia as the SP1 carbine series. ( .600dia-.610 dia at the flare in front of the threads, tapers to .570dia then increases to .625dia under the FSB)

There was never a super secret contract with Colt. I had to sign a document that I would not use the blueprints I obtained from them regarding the XM177 series for commercial or public use without written prior authorization. When you email me and basically demand that I give them to you I stopped responding to you. If you want them so bad contact someone at Colt and go through the same process I did. You want me to send you copies of blueprints I paid for and had to sign an agreement not to distribute….nice try.

In fact here is the exact wording on the top left had corner of the blue prints as supplied by Colt:

PROPRIETARY INFORMATION

THIS ENITRE DOCUMENT AND ALL INFORMATION THEREON IS PROPIERTARY AND THE EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF COLT’S, INC FIREARMS DIVISION, HARTFORD CONNECTICUT, AND SHALL NOT BE REPRODUCED, DUPLICATED OR COPIED IN WHOLE OR IN PART, DISCLOSED OR MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY OTHER PERSON, FIRM OR CORPORATION OR OTHERWISE USED WITHOUT THE PRIOR, WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE OWNER. THIS DRAWING OR PRINT MUST BE RETURNED TO THE OWNER UPON COMPLETEION OF THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH SUCH PERMISSION MAY BE GRANTED.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:19:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 2:22:00 PM EST by Colt-653]
scottryan I never said I sent pics to everyone, I sent extra closeup pics to those that requested them....if you didn't get any...I guess you weren't one of the people I sent pics to.


In all three of my posts I stated that these had to be imported...never stated where they were coming.

once again here is the post:


Here's the add with pic I posted in the EE with a pic of the stocks I posted before they shipped:

I have the opportunity to buy 50-75 Brand New Old Stock Colt XM177E2/SP1 carbine Vinyl Acetate (Rubber) coated stocks made in the 1970's. Because I have to import these and pay for them upfront I plan on doing this as a group buy so I’m not out of pocket thousands of $$$$$.





These stocks are new never attached factory Colt in Colt packaging. They are complete and come on a 2- position tube with carbine buffer and spring. Price should be some where in the $175-195 range and will include shipping. Used take offs are running $250+ so the price should be attractive. Time frame is within the next 30-45 days.


You can still read one of the ads...the other two were locked as the moderators didn't realize it was group buy and I'm not a dealer.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:33:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:46:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 3:37:08 PM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
scottryan.....at least once a week or more you were posting questions about the XM177 series....I answered them as fast as I could......even when you were a jackass and would get pissed via email if I didn't immediately respond….guess me trying to be the nice guy and help a fellow board member out was really worth my time.

I sent you various pictures and told you were you could go to obtain the information you were looking for…. ie various websites, Black Rifle 1(Pg 352 for bbl dia) and II.

I even sent you detailed pics of a friend’s factory Colt Model 639 so you could see the bbl was the same dia as the SP1 carbine series. ( .600dia-.610 dia at the flare in front of the threads, tapers to .570dia then increases to .625dia under the FSB)




That is a complete lie. I never got pissed with you over email. I never acted like you had to responed to my posts. You never sent me any pictures or any documentation about the diameter of an XM177E2 barrel. I kept asking you for pictures and you always gave me the same bullshit of how your computer or camera was not functioning. You seem to be able to easily post pictures of all your stocks and the other stuff you are selling on the EE but you never came through with the XM177E2 barrel pictures and you wonder why I don't think you are credable anymore.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:50:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:

There was never a super secret contract with Colt. I had to sign a document that I would not use the blueprints I obtained from them regarding the XM177 series for commercial or public use without written prior authorization. When you email me and basically demand that I give them to you I stopped responding to you. If you want them so bad contact someone at Colt and go through the same process I did. You want me to send you copies of blueprints I paid for and had to sign an agreement not to distribute….nice try.



Im not going to get in the middle of this, but will say that Colt is correct about the blueprints. They are hard to get and they just don't give them out to just anybody. WATom over at the Subguns board is a HUGE XM177 fan and builds parts around those weapons. He won't give out copies of those blueprints to save his life.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 2:55:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 3:00:01 PM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By Colt-653:

There was never a super secret contract with Colt. I had to sign a document that I would not use the blueprints I obtained from them regarding the XM177 series for commercial or public use without written prior authorization. When you email me and basically demand that I give them to you I stopped responding to you. If you want them so bad contact someone at Colt and go through the same process I did. You want me to send you copies of blueprints I paid for and had to sign an agreement not to distribute….nice try.






I never demaned blueprints. I asked you for them once, you said no, I said that was fine and you would send me some pictures. I asked you for pictures, you never sent any. I use "please" and "thank you" in all my email. I don't think any other member on this board would say that I am not polite.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 3:02:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 3:05:14 PM EST by DM1975]
I would have to say that even though I did not buy into this deal when it was offered to me that Colt_653 has been nothing but helpful and knowledgeable about the XM177E2 when I have asked such questions and has always offered to help me. I wanted to get one of these but could not spend that money for one. I personaly see where at a collectors point of view you would be upset if they were not true XM177 take offs but after review of all the info I would have to say that I would have probably been happy with one myself if I had purchased one. Colt_653, I think you are doing the right thing by refunding their money, it shows good on your caracter.

Just trying to do a bit of character witnessing for ya Colt_653...
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 3:21:58 PM EST
Where are the XM177E2 barrel pics and specs? If you post them, I will retract my statements.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:09:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I would have to say that even though I did not buy into this deal when it was offered to me that Colt_653 has been nothing but helpful and knowledgeable about the XM177E2 when I have asked such questions and has always offered to help me. I wanted to get one of these but could not spend that money for one. I personaly see where at a collectors point of view you would be upset if they were not true XM177 take offs but after review of all the info I would have to say that I would have probably been happy with one myself if I had purchased one. Colt_653, I think you are doing the right thing by refunding their money, it shows good on your caracter.

Just trying to do a bit of character witnessing for ya Colt_653...



If you would have been happy with one after reviewing all of the info why don't you buy mine?

Never mind that the identical newly manufactured reproduction is available through Essential Arms Co. for $115.00!

I'm a bit disturbed by several points that Colt-653 has attempted to make in his rebuttal.
One is that in his original ad he states that these stocks were "New Original (Colt) Stock" parts, while now he has backpedaled and insists that he meant "Colt Contract" parts.
Another is the statement, found in his original ad, that these stocks were manufactured in the 1970's. Now he claims 1983? That doesn't look so good!

I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT - the supposed NOS Colt XM177 stock that I received in the mail from Colt-653 is IDENTICAL - piece for piece - to the reproduction "Military Dimension Smooth Black 2 pos " stock that I purchased from Essential Arms Co. for $115.00 a little over one year ago. No one would be able to differentiate between the two. I WANTED AN OEM COLT STOCK AS ADVERTISED to complete an SP1 Carbine restoration. Just for my collection and not to sell!

As to Colt-653's claim that the stocks he was selling with his XM177 kit were of the 4 pos variety, well, E A Co. makes and sells those too! That defense holds no water in this matter.

Colt-653 claims to know more about these stocks than anybody else on this site, and yet he says that his act of purchasing newly manufactured reproduction stocks and advertising them as original equipment Colt parts from an Israeli contract was "unintentional" on his part. I'd truly like to believe that, but his honest and ethical handling of this ugly situation will prove or disprove his intentions.

I'm not looking for a pissing contest. I have no old grudges against anybody involved with this, nor do I wish to cast aspersions on anyone who doesn't deserve it. I MUST, HOWEVER, PROTECT MY INTERESTS. I just want my money back. ASAP! The rest of you onlookers in this matter are big boys, you can make up your minds for yourselves! It's bad enough that I'm expected to eat the shipping charges. I'll look at the EE in a much different light from here on in.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:17:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:


Scottryan………. I never told you to sell your stocks, you sold them for your own reasons.





Wouldn't the logical thing to do if an ad came up advertising new XM stocks would be to sell your used ones to get new ones. Why would someone want to keep 80% stocks when they can have new ones?

I guess logic is a word you don't understand and you will probably be voting for Kerry.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:54:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:45:30 PM EST by Colt-653]
The stocks that came with my kits were not from EA they actual came from a large vendor of AR15 parts that advertises on this board, they have a link on the Industry board, and they make their own line of AR15's. I looked at the EA stocks, but the finish was not correct, the tubes were not milled properly and the buffers hung up when they were installed.

Some people posted that they had improved in quality, but they were not up to what I was looking for. I have a firm that can closly replicate the finish on the Colt stocks, but by the time I paid $110+shipping each for the EA stocks and another $50-75 to refinish them it wasn't worth the time or effort, the replica stocks I got from the other vendor were close enough for most people, others simple order the kits sans stock and use the Colt stocks they have.

For those that want to know, my first run of XM177 moderators and rings were made by Rocky Mt Arms(Longmont, CO) to Colt blueprint specs, with Colt’s permission…. but the amount of machining proved to be too expensive so I went with WA TOM at Total Silence ….I can post receipts if I need to....Tom as everyone knows does great work and his replicas are top knotch.

The what 4 or 5 out the total of 9 stocks that I sold that everyone is so concerned about came from a vendor is Texas that sells Israeli surplus equipment. When I originally spoke with him he told me the stocks were from the late 1970's, according to the boxes the date code was 1983. In all my posts I state that the stocks had to be imported…never "unintentional" state anything otherwise. Everything else he has sold me has been exactly as described. Before anyone asks, no I will not list the dealer as he is my current source for Colt and LM M16A1 uppers and I don’t want to lose my contact.


I have always honored my work and what I’ve sold, you guys that are freaking out, send your stocks back and I will send you a refund….plan and simple.

If it’s strictly a matter of the color of the tube I will contact Rocky Mt Arms and see what it costs to refinish the tube in Colt Grey or Colt Charcoal black. As far as the finish on the stocks themselves I cannot see any difference compared to the Colt SP1 and XM177E2 stocks I have access to.

Your choice guys.

I will post pics shortly so Scottryan and everyone else can see what were talking about regarding the bbl dia and that whole argument.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 4:58:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:


I will post pics shortly so Scottryan and everyone else can see what were talking about regarding the bbl dia and that whole argument.



I want my pictures posted along side yours and an explaination of why my pictures show a different barrel diameter. I will send them to you, so if you could post them that would help to end some of this tension.


Scott
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:02:35 PM EST
Could someone post a link to the EA 2 position stocks for me? Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:39:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 6:42:15 PM EST by uxb]
response from Colt-653:

-----Original Message-----
From: Colt-653
Sent: Oct 17, 2004 1:53 PM
To: uxb

Subject: Colt XM177E2 stocks

You guys want a refund. Fine send them back but I'm not paying for shipping why am I not surprised?, I posted pics, posted the best discription possible and in full faith sent you what I believe to be Colt stocks. I guess even though I was one of the first to say I would take one, you somehow managed to not send me pics? From every indication I have these are Colt stocks. I also will not destroy a Colt factory Carbine by removing a stock and it's buffer tube from the lower as some of you have suggested I do. I have never suggested you remove the buffer tube, I have suggested slipping off the stock itself, which takes all of three seconds and in no way alters or damages the buffer tube and exchanging it for the stock you sent me

By the way thanks for posting my personal information on the board(which violates board code by the way). I want my name and any personal informantion removed. I hope this is a blanket statement and not directed at me as I have gone to considerable length to only use your ARFcom name...

Return your stocks and refund will be sent USPS minus shipping. I guess being out shipping is better than being out the whole deal, though I would have paid shipping if it were my deal gone bad...Stock going out tomorrow USPS Priority #0304 1070 0000 3623 5031. I expect funds the day USPS.com says this is delivered. I don't care if it's Paypal, PMO, or whatever, as long as it's not a credit card or personal check. I must state I am personally disappointed at your truculence and reluctance to address this issue when it first came up. Given your history on this board, I guess I expected more from you.

Now I'm sorry I sold my REAL COLT 4-position M4 complete buttstock with the "1" and "N" under the latch to fund this fiasco...

uxb

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:23:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:39:26 PM EST by Colt-653]
Here are some of the series of pics I sent scottryan when he requested them a month or two ago...Scott you can post your own pics...not my job:





The bbl on this Colt 639 owned by well known firearms collector in AZ measured out .607 at the threads, 5.74 in the mid section and at the FSB it was .625. The bbl is marked C MP C.

This is a pic of a Colt 639 that a seller from Subguns.com sent me, you can see where the bbl tapers just in front of the FSB, this bbl was marked C MP B:



Pic of a Colt XM177E2 ring, dia is .610 to match up with the flare.




I have more pics but I'm not going to waste the time posting them. I know what I'm taking about...spent the last 10 years researching, collecting and building XM style carbines. If you guys want to find the information do what I did, search the web, read books and magazines, contact Colt, etc............


For everyone that keeps saying you want me to simply remove my stock and send it to you...what about the buffer tubes....weren't they also part of the problem? I’m not going to destroy my firearms to

Just send the stocks back you'll get your refund and then you can find your stocks somewhere else...try the EE, gun shows ,etc not my problem.... in fact there were several stocks in the EE for sale.........

And for those crying about selling your stocks....when did I every advocate you selling your stock....never happened, what ever you decided to do was your own decision.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:42:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:58:17 PM EST by scottryan]
Quit saying you sent me pictures when you never did.

Those pictures are not close enough to show the taper after the front sight or threads. The third picture is just like my pictures that I sent you where the barrel has a diameter .610 ~ .615 from the FSB out to the threads. Why is the grenade ring on backwards?

If you are telling the truth in the first two pictures, then there are two versions of an XM177E2 barrel.


Scott
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:56:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 8:00:28 PM EST by Colt-653]
Depends on who put the ring on, some are on the correct way as in the first photo, others are reversed as the owner of the second photo did. Look around at pics on the web and you’ll see them both ways, you’ll even see some USAF GAU-5’s without them.

Here's another one that is backwards"



and another"



They are designed to allow the XM148 grenade launcher to fit on the upper, not for rifle grenades as is so often misquoted. The rifle grenade was declared obsolete with the introduction of the M79 in 1957 and circa 1966 the XM148 was introduced to supplement it and allow soldiers a weapon other than a .45 for close range engagements.




Scottryan if you're such an expert on the XM177 series why don't you enlighten us with your knowledge…tell me where I’ve been wrong. Post info or pics that prove me wrong….
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:02:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
Depends on who put the ring on, some are on the correct way as in the first photo, others are reversed as the owner of the second photo did. Look around at pics on the web and you’ll see them both ways, you’ll even see some USAF GAU-5’s without them.

They are designed to allow the XM148 grenade launcher to fit on the upper, not for rifle grenades as is so often misquoted. The rifle grenade was declared obsolete with the introduction of the M79 in 1957 and circa 1966 the XM148 was introduced to supplement it and allow soldiers a weapon other than a .45 for close range engagements.

dboy.cpgl.net/USA/M16/CAR/M148.jpg


Scottryan if you're such an expert on the XM177 series why don't you enlighten us with your knowledge…tell me where I’ve been wrong. Post info or pics that prove me wrong….



I sent you pictures showing an identical barrel contour like what is in your third picture. I have no way to host pictures. I can't believe you can sit here and deny proof that some XM177E2s have a .610 ~ .615 diameter barrel past the front sight. Why don't you call Ken at SAW tomorrow so he can tell you the same stuff I am telling you.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:06:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 8:09:06 PM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By Colt-653:


Here's another one that is backwards"

dboy.cpgl.net/USA/M16/CAR/11inch.jpg





Fucking Christ, you just proved yourself wrong with your own picture! How obvious does it have to be? Look at the diameter of the barrel in this picture. It does not change between the FSB and the threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is what I have been saying all along!!!!

Are still going to sit here and deny fact? Are you going give me some credit?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:13:46 PM EST
For those that complained about the buffers not being correct:

When Colt switched from the Edgewater buffer in late 1966:



they went to a improved buffer based on one developed for the carbine system, it used a series of weights and a polyurethane bumper. The one and only down side to this system was the polyurethane bumper was brittle and subject to cracking or breaking if it wasn’t kept “Wet” with LSA, CLP, etc…. The bumper also could be popped free because it press fitted in and held by tension




So Circa 1980-1982 as part of the XM16A1E1(M16A2) project they improved the type of polyurethane used and started to roll pin the bumper to the buffer assembly

.

Since the stocks I sent out have a 1983 date on them the newer style buffer are correct, like I stated to those that inquired I have two Colt Sp1 carbines that have the new style buffers installed.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:19:15 PM EST
got any response to my last post?
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:25:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 9:02:02 PM EST by Colt-653]
The XM177E2 in the first two pics belongs to the Fleischer Museum in Arizona. It was purchased quite ahile ago from the J. Curtis Earl Estate. I know as Mort Fleisher had me out to his home and allowed me to photograph when he was contemplating selling it.


Thinks for insinuating that I took pics of a bogus XM177E2….


You're basing everything you think you know off 2 dimensional pictures, most if not all taken at the wrong angle. Have you ever seen, much less held a real Colt XM177E2/Model 629/639….I have.

I’m telling you the Colt Blue print specs the M16A1 series bbl at the following:

.625 under the front sight base
.575 from the front of the sight tower to where the barrel flares
.610 at the flare where the birdcage or in the case of the XM177E2 where the moderator and ring attach.

Can it be off .010-.025….could be. Colt was rushing to get every M16A1 type rifle out the door that they could back when the XM177E2 series was being made( 1967-1973+/-).

Not milling off .010-.025 off the barrel’s external diameter might have made the difference between the rifle or carbine being delivered on time and was close enough to the spec to not really make a difference.

I’m providing you with information I have both documented as well as what I’ve observed via handling various Colt XM177E1,XM177E2, GAU-5 series and Colt commercial 629/629 carbines.

Post something that disproves what I’m saying and I will bow to your superior knowledge of the XM177 series.

I just come here to read, learn and hangout with people that like AR15's and M16's not get into pissing matchs., kind of makes me wonder why I stick around....Then I remember the people that are just here too learn and share and I know why I stay around.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 8:48:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 9:10:59 PM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
The XM177E2 in the first two pics belongs to the Fleischer Museum in Arizona. It was purchased quite ahile ago from the J. Curtis Earl Estate. I know as Mort Fleisher(the owner of the XM177E2/Colt 639 and the Museum that bares his name) had me out to his home and allowed me to photograph when he was contemplating selling it at the beginning of the year.


Thinks for insinuating that I took pics of a bogus XM177E2…..I make a pretty close replica but this is the real deal.


If this is the pic you're refering to I can see the taper right in front of the FSB(. Just like on every other carbines I've every seen.

www.cybershooters.org/dgca/images/M4/11inch.JPG[.url]

Like I've said before if your the guru of the XM177 series why don't you write an FAQ...jobs all yours...I like to learn about how wrong I've been all along and about how everything I know is crap.



I never said you took a fake picture. I never said you have been completely wrong about everything you know. I can believe you still don't understand what I am saying. I have made it clear several times, but here it is again....

As I stated before, an XM177E2 barrel has a diameter of .610" ~ .615" between the FSB and the threads. There is no flare at the end just before the threads and your picture of the old brown barrel proves that. I will be posting pictures tomorrow that will further prove this. Like all other lightweight barrels, it has a diameter of .625" under the FSB and I never disputed that fact.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:07:02 PM EST
The tone this thread has taken has caused me to reconsider purchasing the XM177 repro kit from Colt-653 and go with WA Tom instead.

The attitude of the seller and subsequent treatment of the buyers when called on it leaves me a bit put off, to say the least.

"It's not my job...." is one of the most hated and despised phrases in the English language and shows contempt, arrogance, and selfishness.

Well, it's not my job either, but scottryan, send me your pics via email and I will host them for you in the morning.

And I'm no expert by any means, but I carried an XM177 in El Salvador everyday for two years, so I do know enough to know this whole deal has not been right or treated respectfully by the seller. His initial response to me was "no refund", and I'm sure he meant it. After enough other buyers began to complain as well, he decided to give us a refund.

But only after sufficient publicity in this thread regarding the deal. Without this thread and the awareness to the other members who have read this, I doubt any of us would have had a refund, given Colt-653 was so vehement originally about denial of same:

"The stocks I have are factory staked to the carbines they came on so I won't be removing them....sorry not going to ruin their vaule by breaking the stake. The only other Colt Aluminum stocks I have is the extra unit I ordered or a used 75% condition XM177(stock) only, it is marked Newton Newman under the latch but is not marked(nn) on the side.

I'm also not giving refunds on the stocks, I can't get a refund from the vendor as it was an as is were is deal. It was also a special buy and I made approximatly $5 on each stock, it's been hardly worth my time to sell 9 stocks to board members. I will post pics tomorrow that show each stock I have attached to my carbines to show that there is variations in markings,finish of the stock and the tube I also have a Colt 2 position M4 fiberite stock(Came from SAW in AZ) that has the same tube as came on these units....so the tubes are Colt manufactured.
Sorry to be a stickler... Yup, I feel the remorse from here.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:21:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Colt-653:



You're basing everything you think you know off 2 dimensional pictures, most if not all taken at the wrong angle. Have you ever seen, much less held a real Colt XM177E2/Model 629/639….I have.

I’m telling you the Colt Blue print specs the M16A1 series bbl at the following:

.625 under the front sight base
.575 from the front of the sight tower to where the barrel flares
.610 at the flare where the birdcage or in the case of the XM177E2 where the moderator and ring attach.



And that is for an M16A1 rifle barrel


Can it be off .010-.025….could be. Colt was rushing to get every M16A1 type rifle out the door that they could back when the XM177E2 series was being made( 1967-1973+/-).

Not milling off .010-.025 off the barrel’s external diameter might have made the difference between the rifle or carbine being delivered on time and was close enough to the spec to not really make a difference.



Could be a posibility


I’m providing you with information I have both documented as well as what I’ve observed via handling various Colt XM177E1,XM177E2, GAU-5 series and Colt commercial 629/629 carbines.

Post something that disproves what I’m saying and I will bow to your superior knowledge of the XM177 series.



You just posted a picture that disproves your own point



I just come here to read, learn and hangout with people that like AR15's and M16's not get into pissing matchs., kind of makes me wonder why I stick around....Then I remember the people that are just here too learn and share and I know why I stay around.


Do you really think I like to go through this either.

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:32:02 PM EST

You know guys sending me private emails telling me that I better send your Money back the minute the stock arrives in my mail box or you’re going to call the Postal Authorities on me is asinine. I’ve told you I will refund your original purchase price minus shipping. I’ve posted it on the board for all to see, so I’m not hiding anything here.


Does threatening me via email some how get you your jollies. Stop with the email or I will contact the Board Administrators

As everyone that I’ve dealt with via the EE can attest to I’ve always bought or when selling required a Postal Money order. That’s exactly what you’ll get back to you for your Stock….a USPS Postal Money order for the price of your stock minus shipping as soon as I have your stock back.

Read this as NO personal checks, NO credit card (that fact that none of you paid with credit card nor the fact that I can’t take credit cards makes this very asinine) or anything else other than a USPS Postal Money order.

Check my feedback in the EE, everyone has been happy with what I’ve sent them and when something wasn’t right I took care of it.



UXB

CMMG ia a great sources for replica XM177 parts and accessories. Just have Jeff exchange the straight Slip ring on the XM177E2 upper they build for the correct angled delta ring

WA TOM (Total Silence, Inc ) can set you up with the XM177E2 moderator and often had A1 parts available or can lead you in the right direction.

Both have been great when I worked with them. Good luck in you build.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 9:47:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 9:49:33 PM EST by Iceshark03]

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
You guys want a refund. Fine send them back but I'm not paying for shipping, I posted pics, posted the best discription possible and in full faith sent you what I believe to be Colt stocks.......


As a special order I should ask for a restock/return fee just like most vendors do....most vendors would tell you too bad you ordered it it's yours.....especially on a special order.



If everyone is out shipping as well isn't it just like if you charged them a restocking fee anyway?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:28:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 5:09:24 AM EST by uxb]
I paid $191 for this stock. This included shipping.

Now I'm paying to ship it back to you and you are saying you are going to deduct the shipping again?


Why aren't you refunding me the complete $191.00, which is what I paid including shipping?

Quote from Colt -653

I’ve told you I will refund your original purchase price minus shipping.


So, I paid shipping in the original price, you're out nothing.

I'm paying to ship it back, you're still out nothing, and now you say you are deducting the price of shipping from my refund even though I will have paid for shipping twice?


What an unethical Charlie Foxtrot


Originally Posted By Colt-653:
....most vendors would tell you too bad you ordered it it's yours.....especially on a special order.



That is pretty much what you told me when I sent my original email questioning the origin of these "Colt" stocks:


The stocks I have are factory staked to the carbines they came on so I won't be removing them....sorry not going to ruin their vaule by breaking the stake. The only other Colt Aluminum stocks I have is the extra unit I ordered or a used 75% condition XM177(stock) only, it is marked Newton Newman under the latch but is not marked(nn) on the side.

I'm also not giving refunds on the stocks, I can't get a refund from the vendor as it was an as is were is deal. It was also a special buy and I made approximatly $5 on each stock, it's been hardly worth my time to sell 9 stocks to board members. I will post pics tomorrow that show each stock I have attached to my carbines to show that there is variations in markings,finish of the stock and the tube I also have a Colt 2 position M4 fiberite stock(Came from SAW in AZ) that has the same tube as came on these units....so the tubes are Colt manufactured.

Sorry to be a stickler, but I posted pics of the units and sent detailed pics of the stocks to those that requested them before they ordered. There is nothing that leads me to believe that these aren't Colt. The stocks match the finish of Colt stocks, the are in Colt marked boxes and as far as I know only Colt was allowed to sell M16 parts to Israel via FMS sales till well after 1995.

I will trade your stock for other New Colt or Some Bushmaster parts I have, but I can't give a refund. If you'd like a list of parts let me know.



Boy, it would have been nice if that had been made clear in the original ad before we paid for them and found out they were not what you advertised.
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