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Posted: 6/10/2005 5:51:48 AM EDT
While no details have been hammered out, the initial meeting and discussion went exceptionally well, and we are thrilled to announce we have a potential new source for loaded ammunition. Calibers that this new source can provide include

.458 SOCOM
.338 Spectre
.500 Phantom
.338 Rhino
.470 Rhino
Others in development
All of which are proprietary to us, HOWEVER, for you pistol shooters, they can also offer

10mm Mag (the LONGEST version of the 10mm) and
7.62x25 Tokarev
and naturally the "typical" calibers of 9mm, 40S&W, 357 Mag, 45 ACP

The company is called Collins Cartridge Company, their website is down while they get a new hosting company, but normally is www.cccammo.com
They supply several of our local departments as well as a contract with one of the large private security firms operating in Iraq.

Ironically, we never knew they were located just two blocks down from us .... 20 or so Dillon 1050s in the front shop, along with the automated machines..... small batch stuff is not a problem and they suggested they could load on used (but not abused) brass ....

We are setting them up with dies, load data, as well as access to Barnes bullets (300 gr X Spitzer loads for the .458 SOCOM, 200 gr Solid Spitzer loads for the .338 Spectre, 195 gr MZ loads for the 10mm Mag, to name a few)

Just wanted to share this little bit of promising info

Any particular loads you folks would want to see ... 350 gr Hornady RN in the .458 SOCOM or else the 500 gr RN Subsonic perhaps ....

Marty

Link Posted: 6/10/2005 5:58:05 AM EDT
Outstanding!
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 7:55:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2005 8:01:28 AM EDT by TonyRumore]
The longest handgun version of the 10mm is the Herters .401 PowerMag, not the 10mm Mag. However, the .401 is rimmed.

Come on Marty, I know you knew that. ;-)

All kidding aside, Marty is the most knowledgable person I have ever met regarding obscure case dimensions, both inside and out.

Link Posted: 6/10/2005 8:12:54 AM EDT
WOW! This is good news.
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 8:20:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
The longest handgun version of the 10mm is the Herters .401 PowerMag, not the 10mm Mag. However, the .401 is rimmed.

Come on Marty, I know you knew that. ;-)

All kidding aside, Marty is the most knowledgable person I have ever met regarding obscure case dimensions, both inside and out.



OK, so the .401 HPM is 1.290 and the 10mm Mag is 1.255 .... ya got me. I tend to forget about the rimmed cases, especially obsolete proprietary ones. The .401 HPM has been more or less replaced with the .41 Rem Mag, itself not what you would call a "mainstream" cartridge. There was the .400 Elmer wildcat and then there are some of those .40-___ cartridges but for MODERN, SMOKELESS, SEMI-AUTO hand guns, the AutoMag pistol in 10mm Mag held the record for longest 10 mm ... wonder why the FBI never adopted it
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 4:19:22 PM EDT
I am ready to place an order for 500 or so of "others in development".

Great news, Marty, and glad to see that Tony is back, alive and kicking. Some of us just can't play right with the big boy companies. We need you guys who are fast on your feet, and sharp with the design.

Craig
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 4:59:25 PM EDT
"Some of us just can't play right with the big boy companies. We need you guys who are fast on your feet, and sharp with the design."



I appreciate that comment. It kinda pisses me off that the big companies usually sit on the sidelines and watch the small guys design and build the cool shit, and then after the small guys have created a new market, they swoop in with big marketing dollars to take the business.

It hasn't happened yet with the big bore AR's....but it's coming, no doubt.

Case in point, the 204 Ruger. They waited 10 years sitting on their ass while the 20 caiber (20 Tactical) eventually proved itself to be a very formidable varmint round.

Link Posted: 6/10/2005 5:18:35 PM EDT
Tony,

Another case in point more specific to my needs. I just purchased an MGI QCB, for the flexibility. I obviously had a choice with the MRP. I got a little squeemish about spending that kind of money on a propriatary system (barrels). Mack and Tom are working like crazy to make and deliver a product that is more user friendly, from a caliber standpoint. Any caliber that I can find any AR barrel in. Guess what, I just read a post in the EE where we were told that there would never be a 6.8 caliber barrel made for the MRP system. Uh oh, there are gonna be some po'd folks out there. LMT is not being very fast on their feet with this one.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=274959


Craig
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 6:17:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 7:04:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By codycoyote:
no beowulf?



I don't fish in Bill's pond and he doesn't fish in mine, the B is his round, he loads it (or decides who gets to) We have a gentleman's agreement and actually chat from time to time about the who, whats, wheres and whens.
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 7:07:47 PM EDT
Sweet....more options. I really like the idea of the 7.62 x 25mm ammo, interested in what they come up with. The .458 I have more fun loading myself, but if they come out with some good stuff at a "reasonable" cost I would probably buy some boxes to try out.

Any word on Hornady supplying dies + ammo or did that die out?
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 7:47:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ctkelly:
Any word on Hornady supplying dies + ammo or did that die out?



Still have stuff brewing and hoping to put pressure on Hornady to step up but Collins is a good back up plan.
Link Posted: 6/10/2005 8:20:18 PM EDT
It's nice to see two small manufacturer's not going after each other's market, but unfortunately, there will be a big guy coming in over the top with a slight tweak on the cartridge design that ends up with a big splash on all the magazine covers.

I would not be surprised if they haven't worked on it yet, but Marty's design is about as solid as it gets working on an AR-15 platform. Necking the thing down further is probably going to break the AR bolt and the Beuwolf case has collapsing issues over 35,000fps with it's severely rebated rim.

An Olympic WSSM upper, running Marty's SOCOM case at 60,000psi would probably put everyone on the sidelines. Marty did his homework on this one......

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp



Link Posted: 6/11/2005 6:20:16 AM EDT
There are always going to be those poor blue-collar boys fiddling around in their garage at 3 AM on their race cars. They're smart. They understand theory. Then they apply the right amount of effort in the right places. They create some new radical component or methode of producing more power.

Then some ass clown comes in and mass produces it, or markets it and claims it was their life's ambition to better the world through their vast intellegence and highly specialized engineering skills.

Even if "big companies" come in to mass produce the big bore calibers cheaper, I'll still be spending my money with the blue-collar boys.

I've never seen a Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, ect. engineer posting here at 2 AM. Tony and Marty do it religiously. So when somebody buys a product with the big companies and they have a problem, they get a: "Well, box it up and mail it back to us. We'll take a look at it in a few weeks and get back to you you on it." Marty/Tony will deal with you via e-mail, phone, or here to see what the problem is to get you back up and running ASAP.

I love it when someone notices one of my .458 SOCOM shirts and asks, "Whats that?" When they say something like "such and such company invented that cartridge. Is Teppo doing it now to?" I just smile and nod.
Link Posted: 6/11/2005 10:33:58 AM EDT
My favorite still is at my second gun show ever, when all we had was the first prototype upper, some clown walks up and tells me "my brother has one of those". "An AR?" I ask. "Yeah, but in that caliber". Hmmm, really, funny, there are only 2,000 pieces of brass and 1 set of dies in the world right now, and I can account for all of them .... wonder who this long lost brother of mine is that he is talking about .... After that I stopped going to local gun shows ....
Link Posted: 6/12/2005 4:11:48 PM EDT
How bout some 6.8 spc
Link Posted: 6/12/2005 7:48:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mag162:
How bout some 6.8 spc



Got a source of brass?

How about a round that duplicates the performance of the SPC with off the shelf brass? Same trajectory (which is also the same as that of the 77 gr Mk262 load), hair bit more energy. Got the dies, reamer gets commissioned tomorrow, brass is here, barrel gets ordered tomorrow. Thinking of letting BearBait wring the performance out of it ... see what it can do.
Link Posted: 6/13/2005 8:08:25 AM EDT
Just say the word, and I will book myself a long stay at the Whittington Center. Don't know if I can get on the Highpower range, but I might be able to sneak some paper targets on the longrange silhouette range. I now where there is a steel buffalo at 1121.31 yards, exactly.

Now where is that pee pee dance icon?

Craig
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 2:33:19 PM EDT
338 rhino? 470 rhino? I havent heard of these yet. Marty what are you up too?
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 4:33:35 PM EDT
I need to spend more time on these forums.
I am missing all the fun.

We got Marty here and Tony is back, woo hoo...

Hey Marty, how did that 30HRT barrel come out?
I still have not run that reamer down a barrel yet.
I do have a funkified 300x221 barrel that I might salvage into an HRT to play with.

Have 20 blanks coming from Rock Creek for my 6.8 group buy.

LMT will not sell me MRP extensions so maybe I need to figure out a solution...
Seems like a regular extension and a neat little spacer that has the loop for the gas tube could be figured out.
Torque the whole thing together in a fixture and then cut the locking bolt slot in the bottom.

Randall Rausch
www.ar15barrels.com
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 4:46:17 PM EDT
tag my Marty uppers need ammo
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 7:23:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysops666:
338 rhino? 470 rhino? I havent heard of these yet. Marty what are you up too?



Just causing more trouble.... 470 Rhino duplicated 470 NE in a 2.8" package

338 Rhino reaches 93% of 338 Lapua Magnum performance in a 2.8" package, 24" barrel and 55K psi.... so it fits the AR-10, we think
Link Posted: 6/21/2005 7:26:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:
Hey Marty, how did that 30HRT barrel come out?
I still have not run that reamer down a barrel yet.
I do have a funkified 300x221 barrel that I might salvage into an HRT to play with.


No chance to play with it yet, got two laying here without shots fired. Need to plink off more 6.8 ammo to get brass. Too busy with other stuff, no takes here on .30 HRT despite what it can do


LMT will not sell me MRP extensions so maybe I need to figure out a solution...
Seems like a regular extension and a neat little spacer that has the loop for the gas tube could be figured out. Torque the whole thing together in a fixture and then cut the locking bolt slot in the bottom.

Should work I would think ....
Link Posted: 6/22/2005 10:44:24 AM EDT
if the 338 rhino performs as well as you say it will, then im calling dibs right now for an ar10 upper.

how far into development are you into that cartridge?

plus, what other goodies are you holding back?
Link Posted: 6/22/2005 11:54:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sysops666:
if the 338 rhino performs as well as you say it will, then im calling dibs right now for an ar10 upper.

how far into development are you into that cartridge?

plus, what other goodies are you holding back?



338 Rhino-
Dies in house
Reamer in progress (about 4 more weeks)
Barrel in stock
Brass - the big hold up. can use .500 Jeffery brass, turn rims on lathe if need be. Waiting on brass makers to reply to RFQ. Already have military sniffing around ....

Other goodies -
Working on some stuff, new cartridge coming soon
Dies - in house
Reamer - 3 more weeks
Barrel - under way, polygonal just for grins
Bullets - in house
Loads - being predeveloped on QL
Brass - off the shelf, requires forming, working on that now
Mags - off the shelf
Bolt, etc - off the shelf

Just got the lower for the SBR project. Still waiting on the AK for another project, also waiting on some custom parts for a "Marty went totally wacko on us" project
Link Posted: 6/23/2005 2:00:31 AM EDT
Marty

I want to come and play at your house
Link Posted: 6/23/2005 2:24:32 AM EDT
this thread makes my nipples hard.
Link Posted: 6/23/2005 10:32:20 AM EDT
Yek-

You are having nicotine withdraw delusion

Snap out of it man
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 5:40:54 AM EDT
Has there been any word yet how the AR-10 holds up to the larger cartridges? I know this is an early question, but I am curious.
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 5:57:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2005 7:56:38 PM EDT by usma89]

Originally Posted By FriedFish:
Has there been any word yet how the AR-10 holds up to the larger cartridges? I know this is an early question, but I am curious.


The Army rifle team has been shooting the 300SAUM for a couple of years now, I have not heard of any problems. Armalite has also made a limited production 300SAUM for a couple of years now.
check here to see some real neat stuff:
http://www.teppojutsu.com/500_Phantom.htm
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 7:14:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FriedFish:
Has there been any word yet how the AR-10 holds up to the larger cartridges? I know this is an early question, but I am curious.



Joe has been duly abusing himself and his AR-10 with the .500 Phantom, including driving the 300 gr to almost 2600 fps. I have NO idea how many rounds he has fired through his rifle but he has not reported any issue. Not shown on his website is the fact that we even shot 975 gr bullet at 1100 fps ...

In terms of stress on the rifle (and bolt group), a major manufacturer (not be mentioned by name) was kind enough to run bolt lug stress calculations for us, and while they are indeed higher than the .308, they still have a healthy safety factor.

No word yet on the .338 Rhino, but we purposely are limiting the pressure to 55000 psi. The brass should be able to take 62000+ which would allow the cartridge to get REALLY close to .338 Lapua Magnum performance (get the right bolt gun and you're in business)
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 10:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2005 10:51:13 PM EDT by FriedFish]
If I was to compare reloading data for the 300 RSAUM (powder speed and weight) would I find it much different than the .338 Rhino?
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 3:59:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FriedFish:
If I was to compare reloading data for the 300 RSAUM (powder speed and weight) would I find it much different than the .338 Rhino?



There would be indeed some difference. RSAUM will hold 74.0 gr water, fires a 220 SMK from a 24" tube at approx 2600-2650 at 55000 psi

The 338 Rhino will hold 95 gr water, fires a 250 SMK at 2700-2750 from a 24" at 55000 psi.

Note that it is a 250 compared to the 220 and that it gains 100 fps, so you have gained an additional 770 or so ft-lbs of energy
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 8:04:25 AM EDT
My greatest apologies if I am hijacking this thread, but I feel it's still on topic.

When will it be possible to obtain an empty .338 Rhino case?

I'm guessing max ~ 72 grains H4831 or ~ 67 gr. IMR 4350 with that 250 gr projectile. Wow! my plinking or light loads with a 250 gr. projectile in my .338 RUM uses about 86 gr. H4831 or 72 gr. IMR 4350.

What if I wanted to load something lighter (less barrel heat) just for plinking? What do you think would be a minimum with a faster powder? I do care for my barrels and let them cool. I would have cycling problems if I couldn't increase the gas volume, correct?


Link Posted: 6/27/2005 8:27:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FriedFish:
My greatest apologies if I am hijacking this thread, but I feel it's still on topic.

When will it be possible to obtain an empty .338 Rhino case?

I'm guessing max ~ 72 grains H4831 or ~ 67 gr. IMR 4350 with that 250 gr projectile. Wow! my plinking or light loads with a 250 gr. projectile in my .338 RUM uses about 86 gr. H4831 or 72 gr. IMR 4350.

What if I wanted to load something lighter (less barrel heat) just for plinking? What do you think would be a minimum with a faster powder? I do care for my barrels and let them cool. I would have cycling problems if I couldn't increase the gas volume, correct?





You're an exceptionally good guesser, however, other powders would offer the velocities listed, your powders do not take full advantage of the capabilities. Charges would still be in the 70's in terms of grains.

You could load lighter, as light as 160 I would guess, or the 180s. Loads can be tailored to ensure cycling.

As far as brass goes, once we have a decent supply, we would be more than happy to accomodate requests for singles (or sets, we do so for collectors with all our rounds) however, at this time all we have is our prototype stuff.
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 7:22:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:

Originally Posted By codycoyote:
no beowulf?



I don't fish in Bill's pond and he doesn't fish in mine, the B is his round, he loads it (or decides who gets to) We have a gentleman's agreement and actually chat from time to time about the who, whats, wheres and whens.



Who's Bill?
Do I nned to call him before I load up any more .50 'wulf? What if he says no?
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 8:57:58 PM EDT
Hey Marty,

Just to let you know, I have a good recipe for fireforming brass (hint hint). The first involves breaking in the barrel properly, which is hotly debated in many circles, but fireforming makes for a good excuse, and it can't hurt (unless you have poor cleaning tools/habits). The second is to take the gun to a nice prairie dog town. The heavier bullets with lighter powder charges (typical fireform loads) tend to drop more than the intended finished round, but when your playing dial a dog with the scope, it makes fireforming almost enjoyable

Craig
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 3:22:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maddog_44:

Originally Posted By MartytW:

Originally Posted By codycoyote:
no beowulf?



I don't fish in Bill's pond and he doesn't fish in mine, the B is his round, he loads it (or decides who gets to) We have a gentleman's agreement and actually chat from time to time about the who, whats, wheres and whens.



Who's Bill?
Do I nned to call him before I load up any more .50 'wulf? What if he says no?



Bill would be Mr. Bill Alexander, of Alexander Arms. The comment was in reference to commercially loaded, factory authorized ammunition.
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 2:32:54 PM EDT
How about some .458 SOCOM loaded with Gold Dot (or similar expanding round) 250-300 grain? Yes, CorBon loads a 300 gr HP, but i'd prefer a Black Talon or GD designed projectile.....

Link Posted: 7/1/2005 3:38:09 PM EDT
I think those are 0.452" diameter projectiles, not 0.458" diameter projectiles.
45 caliber pistol bullets are not the same size as 45 caliber rifle bullets.

Randall
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 4:15:26 PM EDT
Yup. .458 is 0.458" .45 ACP's are different. I think the .45 ACP's are 0.451".

I see both 0.451" and 0.452". I don't know if they have specificly different purposes.
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:12:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By easy610:
How about some .458 SOCOM loaded with Gold Dot (or similar expanding round) 250-300 grain? Yes, CorBon loads a 300 gr HP, but i'd prefer a Black Talon or GD designed projectile.....




How about the 250 gr Barnes "Oh my gosh, that's a HUGE hole" XFN? See the picture, first row of just bullets, all the way left



Marty
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 5:04:08 AM EDT
I bet you would ruin something's day with that.
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 9:32:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:

Originally Posted By easy610:
How about some .458 SOCOM loaded with Gold Dot (or similar expanding round) 250-300 grain? Yes, CorBon loads a 300 gr HP, but i'd prefer a Black Talon or GD designed projectile.....




How about the 250 gr Barnes "Oh my gosh, that's a HUGE hole" XFN? See the picture, first row of just bullets, all the way left

img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/martytw/458SOCOMbulletoptions.jpg

Marty



Suuweeeet Thats what Im takin about.

Marty, what would be the basic stats on a 250 grain SOCOM round...fps and lbs of energy? Less recoil?

Link Posted: 7/2/2005 11:02:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By easy610:
Suuweeeet Thats what Im takin about.

Marty, what would be the basic stats on a 250 grain SOCOM round...fps and lbs of energy? Less recoil?



From a 16" carbine, approx 2000-2050 fps, 2300 ft-lbs energy. Lowest perceived recoil due to lowest impulse. Only problem is that the Barnes bullets are pricey.

I did not find any other readily available bullets of less than 300 gr, I did almost get my hands on a set of swaging dies to make a 285 grainer, but someone beat me to it .... One of these days I will get the time and funding to start producing my own - right after I win the lottery
Link Posted: 7/12/2005 1:38:42 PM EDT
hey Marty. post some pics of the 338 spectre. you know...... the good ones!
Link Posted: 7/12/2005 2:09:56 PM EDT
I would love to see a subsonic sized hollow point or a reasonably priced premium hollow point.

Can you imagine a 600 grain hollow point ala the old 45 flying ashtrays
Link Posted: 7/12/2005 8:37:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2005 7:11:05 PM EDT by MartytW]

Originally Posted By sysops666:
hey Marty. post some pics of the 338 spectre. you know...... the good ones!





This?

Edit to add description

Front row, left to right
180 gr Ballistic Tip, 200 gr Solid Spitzer, 225 gr SST, 300 gr RN

Back row, left to right
180 gr BT, 200 gr BST, 200 gr Solid, 215 gr GPA, 225 gr SST, 250 gr SP, 300 gr SMK
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 8:51:13 AM EDT
good god yes...................


um excuse me.... i need to get a towel
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 8:54:42 AM EDT

um excuse me.... i need to get a towel


Um, I hope that is for drool
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 12:51:46 PM EDT
you wish
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