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Posted: 8/14/2004 3:02:22 PM EST
Happened to see some, marked BF 79-77, in 200 rd BPs.

Anyone had any experience with this stuff?

Am considering re-barreling my Garand in .308, maybe this would be good milsurp for it.

TIA



Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:04:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 3:04:56 PM EST by SHIVAN]
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:19:57 PM EST
Thnx.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:42:41 PM EST
My M1A has never had a problem with it.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 3:44:27 PM EST
Port is good, as is South African and Australian.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:32:59 AM EST
I shoot the stuff out of my Rem 700 bolt gun. For combat ammo, it's rather fantastic. I can drive tacks with the stuff at 15 cents per shot.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:24:47 PM EST
Anyone have a link to this stuff for on-line purchase ?????
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:38:44 PM EST
AIM Surplus has it, $150 / 1,000.

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:44:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 3:19:05 AM EST by cnatra]

the Portugese .308 is good stuff !!

try & find some Australian (ADI) too, it's '90's vintage

if your lucky there will be some Hirtenberger (Austrian) floating around out there
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:32:17 PM EST
all the port. I,ve fired is pretty good stuff ,its not as cheap as the india m80 stuff $100/1000, but its alot cleaner and doesn't foul up as bad, the only stuff I've shot thats better is the aus. and brit.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 5:40:33 PM EST
I use it on my AR10, FAL and my Rem 700 with no problems, stock up on this stuff, IT IS GREAT!!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:12:06 AM EST
I still worry about the steel in the bullet. Nobody has sold my on why I shouldn't care about the very, very thin plated copper over the steel.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:43:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 8:43:52 AM EST by SHIVAN]
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:53:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Magnets don't stick to the Port I have.....



They do to mine. Even the AMMOMAN fridge magnets will stick to it. I pulled and cut one of the PORT bullets hoping to find a hearty jacket. Unfortunately there is a very thin plating on the area that contacts the rifling of the barrel. I suppose it is mild steel anyway, but I don't feel warm about it.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:03:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:36:07 PM EST
Just buy Aussie and don't worry about it.
More and more reports of Port FTFs lead me to believe that it is nearing the end of its reliable shelf life.
BTW: Aussie stocks are running out at most online dealers and there won't be any more imported (AUS no longer uses .308 in their mil and surplussed it all to us).
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:59:46 PM EST
I agree. But I had already bought two battle packs of PORT before Aussie became available. I have since bought a small chunk of Aussie!
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:03:51 PM EST
Been stockpiling and shooting the Portugese ammo for some time now.

Roughly 2 years.

Have had little if any abrupt variations in velocity or POA/POI between lots@200m between the years and lots involved.

Also have yet to change the gas settings on the 2 FAL's I keep as primary rifles in that time frame and several differnet lots and shipments have come and passed.

Usually burn through a case a month.

Port .308 is a Best bet and a Bargain as long as it lasts.

AIM is also a "Go to" supplier for me.
No red Herrings so far.
Good folks and timely shipping.

S-28

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:42:58 AM EST
Hmmm....you got my curiosity going. Yes, my ammoman.com magnet sticks to the slug from a batch of Portugese .308

And I do know lead-antimony is non-magnetic.

However, the stuff shoots great for me. Can't beat that $.15 a pop price tag!
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:35:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:30:36 AM EST
I don't have a chrome lined barrel. I'm shooting a PTR-91 with polygonal rifling, you insensitive bastard.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:27:18 AM EST
I have not shot much of the case of Port I have as Im still shooting up the Hirtenberger...but what I have shot of the Port is good stuff.1976 dated.Not as accurate as the Hirtenberger but good enough.Bullets are steel jacketed copper washed but so is the Hirtenberger.The main advantage of the Hirtenberger for me is its very accurate and all boxer primed so you get good NATO brass to reuse.
That reminds me I need to go by Gun Mart and pick a few more battlepacks of the Hirtenberger.
Raymond
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 10:28:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 7:24:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 7:24:51 PM EST by BroncoMafia]
Aussie does not stick to magnet.
copper jacket, lead core, brass case.
accurate as can be, and great fragmentation.

Ahhhhh . . . . Aussie

The only reason (mild) steel jacket should be a concern to you in .308 is if a range you like won't let you use it.
Otherwise, your riffles will not be damaged by it.

Most FALs these days are built on parts kits that have sent many thousands of rounds of ammo like that down the pipe, yet the barrels are usually in remarkable condition.

Negligence will damage your barrel a LOT faster than Port.
That being said, but Aussie
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 7:52:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
OK, so the magnets stuck......

I still say BFD.....not using it in a SS barrel, I'm using it in a chrome lined bore and chambered rifle....isn't that one of the reasons chrome lining exists??




OK, now you're making me nervous.

You see, I just finished my latest project tonight. AR10A4 carbine with a heavy/fluted SS barrel. (I'll post pics later this week.) For function testing, I ran 50 rounds of Portugese thru her.

Please PLEASE tell me that I didn't just FUBAR my BFN gun!

I just went out to check. The bullets are definitely magnetic.



Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:03:12 PM EST

Please PLEASE tell me that I didn't just FUBAR my BFN gun!


Relax.

Take a deep breath.

Take a hacksaw and cut across the slug. You'll see the steel insert is safely wrapped with a layer of lead, and then the copper cladding protects that. There's never steel-on-steel contact.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:34:22 AM EST
Huh and such?

The lead is INSIDE THE STEEL, Schalmele!

And the steel is thinly plated with copper. I did cut one of the bullets. But I agree that the steel likely never makes contact with the bore.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:37:57 AM EST
That's what I was hoping. <sigh of relief>

Looked like a regular copper jacket to me, but I didn't have time to dissect a bullet last night.



Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:39:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:48:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
You simply accelerated the lapping process.....

No problems. I wouldn't run surplus through a SS barrel, but it won't kill it -- it MIGHT wear it out faster, but this could be the difference between 5000rds and 5250rds.......or whatever.....

I wouldn't worry too damn much.....



Well, I didn't build this one to be a tack driver, just a blaster. I only used a SS barrel because I got a SWEET deal on it at Camp Perry.

I built the whole rig for ~$750, so even if I have to replace the barrel in a year or two, I guess I won't be too much worse for the wear.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:55:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:41:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 10:47:59 AM EST by dablues]


Huh and such?

The lead is INSIDE THE STEEL. Schalmele!



( do you mean "schlemiel" ? )

Anyway, back to the gilding, you are exactly right. Guess that's the problem trying to identify layers of grey metal at 1:00am after a few beers. My problem is actually seeing what I am looking at.

Here's a small piece out of Janes Defence from their ammunition handbook

SMALL ARMS, United States
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2004
Jane's Ammunition Handbook
7.62 × 51 mm cartridge

Synonyms
7.62 mm NATO; 0.308 Winchester

Armament

All weapons chambered to Stanag dimensions; notably FN Fal, G3, M14, BM59 rifles, FN mag, L4, MG3, M60 machine guns.

Development

The 7.62 × 51 mm cartridge was devised in the US in the early 1950s as a compromise between the full-sized 0.30-06 and a proposed British 7 mm round; it is little more than the 0.30-06 with a shortened case. Improvements in powder technology allowed the new round to retain the same ballistics as the 0.30-06. Nevertheless, many of its competitors were far more advanced. The US used its considerable influence to override all allied objections, and the 7.62 × 51 mm became international standard. The 7.62 mm international cartridge is too powerful to be a practical assault-rifle round, resulting in the development of the 5.56 × 45 mm cartridge only a few years after its adoption. The 7.62 mm international cartridge remains in wide distribution for use in general-purpose machine guns and sniper rifles.

Description

The case is rimless and bottlenecked, brass or lacquered steel, Berdan or Boxer primed. Cartridges manufactured to the relevant international specification are marked with a cross-in-circle symbol on the head, forming part of the national pattern of headstamp. The standard ball bullet has a lead-antimony core in a jacket of steel coated with gilding metal. (emphasis added for clarity)


Here's some info pertinent to Portugese manufacture:

Portugal

Manufacturer
Indep­
Type: Ball M350: FMJ; lead core, SL; 9.45 g; MV 844 m/s
Tracer M351: FMJ; lead core; semi-streamlined, red trace to 775 m; 8.95 g; MV 841 m/s
Sniper ball M359: FMJ; lead core; 9.45 g; MV 840 m/s
Match ball M435: JHP, S/L; lead core; 11.66 g; MV 755 m/s
Match ball M436: JHP, S/L; lead core; 12.32 g; MV 755 m/s
Ball 0.308 Win: FMJ; lead core; 9.45 g; MV 844 m/s
AP M352: FMJ; lead envelope, steel core; 9.45 g; MV 837 m/s
HP test: FMJ; pressure 4,600 kg/cm2
Blank: Brass case, rose or plain crimp
Grenade-launcher: Brass case; chamber pressure <=750 kg/cm2

So just within the Indep line, there are several variations on this layer cake idea, with the AP M352 being the steel spike in a lead jacket, wrapped in copper and the Ball M350 being the lead ball, wrapped in a steel jacket, wrapped in copper gilding. They both would stick to a magnet.

There were also some other variants by other country's manufacturers:

AP: Steel, plated with gilding metal and a tin layer; tungsten carbide core; 11.1 g; MV 780 m/s
AP: FMJ, tungsten core; 9.5 g; MV 820 m/s
Armour-Piercing (AP) FMK 2 Mod 0: FMJ; hardened steel core; 9.75 g; MV 812 m/s
Armour-Piercing Incendiary (AP-I) FMK 3 Mod 0: FMJ; steel core, with incendiary filling in the nose of the jacket; 9 g; MV 830 m/s
Observing FMK 5 Mod 0: FMJ; steel core, explosive filling so as to produce a smoke ball on impact; trajectory matches that of the ball FMK 1 Mod 0; 9 g; MV 830 m/s

I *believe* any of these AP or incendiary variants would be specifically marked with a color coded tip on the bullet, near as I can tell from the small grainy images on the Janes website.

The Portugese 7.62 I've got is marked 350/M and it's just a plain shiny ogive.

Bottom line is I plan to continue shooting it from my stainless barrel with no guilt and enjoy it!

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:46:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 10:51:51 AM EST by markm]
That is what I said! The lead is the core, and the steel is the jacket with the copper plate on top of it. I didn't cut far enough into the bullet to hit the lead core because I wasn't concerned about hitting lead. As soon as I hit steel, I wept.

p.s. How do you spell Schlamozzel? I'm from AZ so I don't know all them High falootin words.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:51:39 AM EST
Ummmm....I'm *agreeing* with you

Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:52:45 AM EST
Oh. OK I thought we were on the same page, but what about SCHLAMOZZEL?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:23:33 AM EST
I sure don't know, but it sounds good! No offense intended with my snappy comeback, and I hope none is taken.

I did find this:

What's a Schlamozzel?


... from the episode of Taxi guest-starring Jeffrey Tambor as an unconfident congressman. Louie calls him a schlimiel and a schlamozzel, and procceeds to offer up definitions: a schlimiel is someone that spills his soup, a schlamozzel is the person he spills it on....


The thing that really impresses me about the 7.62 is the hitting power of even just the plain old lead core. My girl friend and I were shooting one of those steel plates used by the railroad to hold the rails to the ties and we were gouging out half inch craters from 100 yards out.

I'd like to try that with some real AP ammo.

My .223 just left little puffs of lead dust on the surface.

See you later.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:45:34 AM EST
WOW! I've found the opposite to be true. I have some "AR plate", which is the leading edge of a large front loader bucket.

Anyway A friend cut some gongs for me out of it, and M193 pocks the hell out of it. But, Aussie .308 looked like pistol splatter. Zero penetration. Just a splat mark.

Maybe on mild steel .308 does better.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:03:23 PM EST

Maybe on mild steel .308 does better.


I'm just shooting K-Mart .223, and not military. I think that's one difference. Also, the rail tie plates are likely to be pretty cheap metal, where the steel from a front end loader bucket has to be tough.

But I do have one more Aussie/Port question:

Aussie is reloadable, but the Portugese is not?

If that's the case, I'm going to just sweep my Port brass into the bin at the range and not waste time picking it up. And if Aussie is reloadable, it becomes a slightly better deal as once-fired military brass is about $.10 per empty round.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:26:06 PM EST
Nope. The Aussie is not boxer primed.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:33:17 AM EST
I sell both Port and Ausi, I sell ten cases of port to every ausi. The Port that i have now is newer than most we have sold it is 1979, most of it was 76-78. I have shot both in cetmes and Fals, they seem to be the same in accuracy but the ausi comes with clips.
Bryan
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:58:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 8:02:04 PM EST by Ndenway]

If your looking for some cheap ammo with reloadable brass try out the Indian OFV m-80 147gr. stuff $100/1000 and jgsales.com will give bulk discounts on orders of 3000rds+ , I know some people say its trash but I've fired over 1400rds of it with out a ftf in a cetme and ar10, and its not as clean as the port or aus but for the price you can't beat it, you can buy two cases of loaded stuff for what the powder to load a 1000 would cost.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:26:51 AM EST
Before you re-barrel talk to someone who has used the insert that was used years ago that you put in the chamber and shoot that swells to re-chamber the 30-06 to 308.It can be removed relatively easily and I have been told it will not harm the chamber.The military used it so it must be good????Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:54:24 PM EST
Man I found port for $2.80 for a box of 20. The place required an FFL (wholesaler) but I was going to contact my local guy and get him to get it for me. They had 2500 boxes of 20 left on Monday and today they're out....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:24:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 6:30:39 PM EST by back40]
Forgetit
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