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Posted: 1/24/2014 4:00:31 PM EDT
I have been contemplating polishing the contact surfaces on my spikes standard trigger with flitz much like a "glock 25 cent trigger job". I have read that this removes the case hardening and softens up the surfaces. Is this true? The surfaces do not look coated as if they had a preliminary polish from the factory although it is not very smooth.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 4:25:51 PM EDT
if your using a dremel with a polishing head and some jewelers rouge, your not going to effect the hardening. if you use a stone to polish then you can run the risk of taking too much off to effect the hardening, but you would be removing more material than what is required to polish the surface.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 4:43:18 PM EDT
Might want to save up for a new FCG if you have never done this
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 4:53:34 PM EDT
I don't know how you could "ruin" a FCG with a felt tipped dremel and flitz unless i spent hours polishing away at it. I am not worried about ruining it I just wanted to check to see if it would mess up the finish and possibly cause it to wear out prematurely.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 6:02:15 PM EDT
I polish the contact points and remove the hammer 'spur' on all my mil spec triggers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 6:04:06 PM EDT
i use 1600 grit sand paper on mine they have held up good
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:27:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By patrick10w:
i use 1600 grit sand paper on mine they have held up good
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if your gonna use paper i would suggest at least 2000 (wet auto body paper) and use some oil. also use a small piece of metal as a backer so you keep your edge nice and flat (you dont want a rounded edge on a sear)
Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:39:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 10:41:41 PM EDT by YaMaMa]
And bend one if the hammer spring legs back 30-40 degrees. Search 5 min ar15 trigger job

I Smooth all contact points with arkansas stone, objective is "NOT" to remove metal.

I've also seen some new springs kits to make it better.

Eta: 15 min trigger job
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 9:47:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 9:48:02 AM EDT by ScoeyAz]
I sent a mil spec spikes trigger to Robar for nickel teflon coating.. $20.
I run it 100% dry mostof the time and its super super smooth.. more than my ALG.

The contact surfaces polish themselves.
Like so...

(2stage shown.. don't have a picture of my milspec)



Link Posted: 1/25/2014 9:58:58 AM EDT
I would suggest that before you undertake this procedure that you Google:

Bill Springfield Trigger Problems,.....OR:

Link Posted: 1/25/2014 12:05:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
I would suggest that before you undertake this procedure that you Google:

Bill Springfield Trigger Problems,.....OR:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/PursuitSS/96db5b56cd1fbe016a4414035fa53455.jpg
View Quote



that's why i say you dont want to round or mess up the edge of the sear. the sear needs to keep a pisitive angle or it may not hold the hammer back and could cause doubling.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 12:47:32 PM EDT
You don't want to be a cheapskate when it comes to triggers, an attorney licensed to practice in Federal Court will run at least 20K
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 1:10:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 1:11:41 PM EDT by downrivertrash]
I used a flat ceramic stone with some water and just polished the trigger where the hammer contacts.  Everything still nice and flat with no changes to corners or angles.   Bent the hammer springs slightly. Its still a little on the heavy side but doesn't feel like two bricks rubbing against each other.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 4:03:56 PM EDT
This brings up a very good topic that I feel too many people are misinformed about. You CAN remove too much material fom a MilSpec Trigger making it unsafe and/or function oddly. However, polishing the sear contact points on the trigger and hammer should not remove any material at all, maybe the andonizing from some of the close surrounding areas, but this is only bad if you don't keep your firearm clean and lubricated (then you may have to worry about rust) like most of us do.  I use a set of Japanese Water Stones (that I use to sharpen knives at the house) starting with a 4000 Grit Stone, then using the 8000 Grit and finalizing the polishing with a 12,000 Grit Waterstone. This applies a mirror polish to the contact points. The notch on the hammer can easily be done with a 90 degree edge of a Water Stone. At super fine grits above 4000 I would think very little metal is actually removed if any. A mirror polish on the contact points with a drop of oil makes for a fantastic MilSpec Trigger Group! Promise...you can't go wrong trying it out on one of your Trigger and Hammers.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 4:25:55 PM EDT
Guess what!

If you polish, no matter how fine of abrasive you use, you ARE removing material.

To polish you have to remove the high surface points to get a mirror finish. At one time Bill Springfield was considered THE MAN here. That was before the reports started coming in on doubling and full auto from his trigger work.

You might get away with it for several thousand rounds, and then one day at the range your rifle dumps a full mag while you are standing next to an Off Duty Police Officer.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 4:46:26 PM EDT
I would just buy a new trigger. An ALG ACT is about $65 and feels like a nice well broken in Mil Spec trigger. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for doing things yourself (I did my own fsp shave,  glass bedding on a Rem 700, stock refinishing on a Mosin) but an AR trigger is best replaced and not modified.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 4:50:47 PM EDT
I just polish the two surfaces that contact each other with the dremel and some compound. Then I put some wheel bearing grease in between the two when I install it. This takes a bit of the grit out of the trigger. Nothing life changing though.

If you can, just spend the extra money and buy a Geissele. You can't go wrong there.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 5:22:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 5:23:09 PM EDT by rksonex]
Don't do it! I did it to one of mine as atlest and the sear surfaces were ruined after 500 rounds. If you want a better mil-spec trigger go with an ALG Defense QMS or ACT. If I woere you I would just go strait to a Geisele.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 6:12:45 PM EDT
Not trying to start an arguement, but It's kind of contradictory to tell someone not to polish their MilSpec Trigger Group components and to just buy an ALG Trigger Group! If you read the description of those two ALG Trigger Groups, they are both MilSpec and ALG says that they "polish" the sear contact points to a mirror finish on both the trigger and hammer. One of the trigger groups has a Nickel Boron finish applied and the other does not.....sooo, pay $25 extra to buy a Trigger Group that someone else polished or buy a MilSpec Trigger group and polish it yourself....hmmm? Don't know about OP but I think I'd rather do it myself and save that extra $$! I feel I'm a more competent Gunsmith than the guys working at the ALG factory (not saying they don't employ knowledgeable and very capable workers, I just know the level of work I do, and to me this job is simple enough). With that said, if you're unsure about doing it, then DON'T do it and  yeah, go buy one of the ALG Trigger Groups, they are fantastic triggers, I've used both, you can't go wrong if your looking for a MilSpec Trigger with a cleaner break than your Stnd. MilSpec Trigger would provide. But, who works on their gun or attempts to do something that they are unsure of?!?!?  Just a thought....
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 6:22:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 6:35:28 PM EDT by The_Hammer]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:
Not trying to start an arguement, but It's kind of contradictory to tell someone not to polish their MilSpec Trigger Group components and to just buy an ALG Trigger Group! If you read the description of those two ALG Trigger Groups, they are both MilSpec and ALG says that they "polish" the sear contact points to a mirror finish on both the trigger and hammer. One of the trigger groups has a Nickel Boron finish applied and the other does not.....sooo, pay $25 extra to buy a Trigger Group that someone else polished or buy a MilSpec Trigger group and polish it yourself....hmmm? Don't know about OP but I think I'd rather do it myself and save that extra $$! I feel I'm a more competent Gunsmith than the guys working at the ALG factory (not saying they don't employ knowledgeable and very capable workers, I just know the level of work I do, and to me this job is simple enough). With that said, if you're unsure about doing it, then DON'T do it and  yeah, go buy one of the ALG Trigger Groups, they are fantastic triggers, I've used both, you can't go wrong if your looking for a MilSpec Trigger with a cleaner break than your Stnd. MilSpec Trigger would provide. But, who works on their gun or attempts to do something that they are unsure of?!?!?  Just a thought....
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Both the QML and ACT are surface hardened AFTER polishing. I'm pretty sure that Geissele knows how to make a reliable trigger

ETA: So you feel your better at doing trigger work than the crew at Geissele?
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:41:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:


Both the QML and ACT are surface hardened AFTER polishing. I'm pretty sure that Geissele knows how to make a reliable trigger

ETA: So you feel your better at doing trigger work than the crew at Geissele?
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:
Not trying to start an arguement, but It's kind of contradictory to tell someone not to polish their MilSpec Trigger Group components and to just buy an ALG Trigger Group! If you read the description of those two ALG Trigger Groups, they are both MilSpec and ALG says that they "polish" the sear contact points to a mirror finish on both the trigger and hammer. One of the trigger groups has a Nickel Boron finish applied and the other does not.....sooo, pay $25 extra to buy a Trigger Group that someone else polished or buy a MilSpec Trigger group and polish it yourself....hmmm? Don't know about OP but I think I'd rather do it myself and save that extra $$! I feel I'm a more competent Gunsmith than the guys working at the ALG factory (not saying they don't employ knowledgeable and very capable workers, I just know the level of work I do, and to me this job is simple enough). With that said, if you're unsure about doing it, then DON'T do it and  yeah, go buy one of the ALG Trigger Groups, they are fantastic triggers, I've used both, you can't go wrong if your looking for a MilSpec Trigger with a cleaner break than your Stnd. MilSpec Trigger would provide. But, who works on their gun or attempts to do something that they are unsure of?!?!?  Just a thought....


Both the QML and ACT are surface hardened AFTER polishing. I'm pretty sure that Geissele knows how to make a reliable trigger

ETA: So you feel your better at doing trigger work than the crew at Geissele?


I have never met the crew at Geissele. I can not comment on their experience or level of work, mine speaks for itself. This is after all what my company does for a living.....so yes I would much rather do the work myself.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:52:48 PM EDT
Do you harden parts after a trigger job? Not being a smart ass, just wondering.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 9:03:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Do you harden parts after a trigger job? Not being a smart ass, just wondering.
View Quote

Why would he?  They are hardened before he started, and he wouldn't remove enough material to get to the "not hardened" structure under, unless he was an idiot, which I doubt.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 9:15:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By pyroclayman:

Why would he?  They are hardened before he started, and he wouldn't remove enough material to get to the "not hardened" structure under, unless he was an idiot, which I doubt.
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Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Do you harden parts after a trigger job? Not being a smart ass, just wondering.

Why would he?  They are hardened before he started, and he wouldn't remove enough material to get to the "not hardened" structure under, unless he was an idiot, which I doubt.


My understanding is that when you remove ANY amount of material from the trigger it can affect the surface hardness and cause accelerated wear.
Link Posted: 1/25/2014 9:42:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:


My understanding is that when you remove ANY amount of material from the trigger it can affect the surface hardness and cause accelerated wear.
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Do you harden parts after a trigger job? Not being a smart ass, just wondering.

Why would he?  They are hardened before he started, and he wouldn't remove enough material to get to the "not hardened" structure under, unless he was an idiot, which I doubt.


My understanding is that when you remove ANY amount of material from the trigger it can affect the surface hardness and cause accelerated wear.



hammer, think about this. i well used and broken in trigger is smooth and not gritty........why????

because the hi spots have been worn down (tiny amounts of material removed over time) making it smoother. and do you need to re-harden or replace you trigger because its broken in? no the broken in trigger still works great for many thousands of round to come.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:48:49 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:
Not trying to start an arguement, but It's kind of contradictory to tell someone not to polish their MilSpec Trigger Group components and to just buy an ALG Trigger Group! If you read the description of those two ALG Trigger Groups, they are both MilSpec and ALG says that they "polish" the sear contact points to a mirror finish on both the trigger and hammer. One of the trigger groups has a Nickel Boron finish applied and the other does not.....sooo, pay $25 extra to buy a Trigger Group that someone else polished or buy a MilSpec Trigger group and polish it yourself....hmmm? Don't know about OP but I think I'd rather do it myself and save that extra $$! I feel I'm a more competent Gunsmith than the guys working at the ALG factory (not saying they don't employ knowledgeable and very capable workers, I just know the level of work I do, and to me this job is simple enough). With that said, if you're unsure about doing it, then DON'T do it and  yeah, go buy one of the ALG Trigger Groups, they are fantastic triggers, I've used both, you can't go wrong if your looking for a MilSpec Trigger with a cleaner break than your Stnd. MilSpec Trigger would provide. But, who works on their gun or attempts to do something that they are unsure of?!?!?  Just a thought....
View Quote


Seriously?  "This is what my company does for a living".  So you have a complete fabrication facility where you can do heat treating, hardening, and you employ an experienced metallurgist?  That's an impressive company for someone who claims to be a gunsmith that's better than the guys at the ALG factory.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 5:24:43 AM EDT
If you are such a great gunsmith, why even post here? As stated and as you should know with your stated expertise, triggers are not an area for the inexperienced to be tramping through..and I think Bill and his staff may have a bit more knowledge about the FCG than you.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 6:39:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By coloradocopper:


Seriously?  "This is what my company does for a living".  So you have a complete fabrication facility where you can do heat treating, hardening, and you employ an experienced metallurgist?  That's an impressive company for someone who claims to be a gunsmith that's better than the guys at the ALG factory.
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Originally Posted By coloradocopper:
Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:
Not trying to start an arguement, but It's kind of contradictory to tell someone not to polish their MilSpec Trigger Group components and to just buy an ALG Trigger Group! If you read the description of those two ALG Trigger Groups, they are both MilSpec and ALG says that they "polish" the sear contact points to a mirror finish on both the trigger and hammer. One of the trigger groups has a Nickel Boron finish applied and the other does not.....sooo, pay $25 extra to buy a Trigger Group that someone else polished or buy a MilSpec Trigger group and polish it yourself....hmmm? Don't know about OP but I think I'd rather do it myself and save that extra $$! I feel I'm a more competent Gunsmith than the guys working at the ALG factory (not saying they don't employ knowledgeable and very capable workers, I just know the level of work I do, and to me this job is simple enough). With that said, if you're unsure about doing it, then DON'T do it and  yeah, go buy one of the ALG Trigger Groups, they are fantastic triggers, I've used both, you can't go wrong if your looking for a MilSpec Trigger with a cleaner break than your Stnd. MilSpec Trigger would provide. But, who works on their gun or attempts to do something that they are unsure of?!?!?  Just a thought....


Seriously?  "This is what my company does for a living".  So you have a complete fabrication facility where you can do heat treating, hardening, and you employ an experienced metallurgist?  That's an impressive company for someone who claims to be a gunsmith that's better than the guys at the ALG factory.



I really don't have to answer this, why should anyone have to explain themselves to someone who is trolling a forum post? But FYI - yes, my holding company owns several businesses, in the firerams industry and a few in industrial metals production....this is my personal AR15.com account. I need not go any further but I will tell you, I have a 38,000sq ft Facility in Houston, TX all of our custom firearms are machined and assembled from start to finish. Currently taking bids to expand this particular factory by another 15,000 sq ft...hopefully construction will start before summer gets here as production is maxed out at the moment!  Thanks for asking though! Sorry OP, this is as far as we should stray from the topic of the thread.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 7:06:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2014 7:33:19 AM EDT by pyroclayman]
The case hardening is deeper than the "high spots".  Remove the high spots.  This is really freaking simple.  I don't know why some people are bing idiots about this and arguing about such a sinple f'ing thing.

All I can say, is if your a retard, don't do it.  If you have normal smarts, it's simple and safe.   If you think you need to ask your mommy if your smart enough to handle it, your not.

I will add that typically, it only helps somewhat.   And that depends on how bad it was to start.  A high end unit from one of the better makers is always a better option, IF you decide to afford one.

I'm done with this one.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 7:34:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
The case hardening is deeper than the "high spots".  Remove the high spots.  This is really freaking simple.  I don't know why some people are being idiots about this and arguing about such a sinple f'ing thing.

All I can say, is if your a retard, don't do it.  If you have normal smarts, it's simple and safe.   If you think you need to ask your mommy if your smart enough to handle it, your not.

I will add that typically, it only helps somewhat.   And that depends on how bad it was to start.  A high end unit from one of the better makers is always a better option, IF you decide to afford one.

I'm done with this one.
View Quote

Link Posted: 1/26/2014 7:56:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
The case hardening is deeper than the "high spots".  Remove the high spots.  This is really freaking simple.  I don't know why some people are bing idiots about this and arguing about such a sinple f'ing thing.

All I can say, is if your a retard, don't do it.  If you have normal smarts, it's simple and safe.   If you think you need to ask your mommy if your smart enough to handle it, your not.

I will add that typically, it only helps somewhat.   And that depends on how bad it was to start.  A high end unit from one of the better makers is always a better option, IF you decide to afford one.

I'm done with this one.
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'Nuff Said! Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself!
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 4:41:00 PM EDT
I'm sorry, what forum is this again? Buy it yourself?

Go for it dude, you will not kill it with simple stoning and polishing compound. Make yourself a "fitting jig" out of a hunk of oak or UHMW plastic. Use a lower to mark and drill your axis pin holes with a 5/32 drill bits and just leave the bits in the holes. This way you can see and test your FCG outside of the gun. They sell them commercially but its easy to make out of scrap.

And if you get carried away you buy a new FCG and consider it a $60 stupid tax.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 11:25:44 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:


'Nuff Said! Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself!
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Originally Posted By BlackFlagTac-Team:
Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
The case hardening is deeper than the "high spots".  Remove the high spots.  This is really freaking simple.  I don't know why some people are bing idiots about this and arguing about such a sinple f'ing thing.

All I can say, is if your a retard, don't do it.  If you have normal smarts, it's simple and safe.   If you think you need to ask your mommy if your smart enough to handle it, your not.

I will add that typically, it only helps somewhat.   And that depends on how bad it was to start.  A high end unit from one of the better makers is always a better option, IF you decide to afford one.

I'm done with this one.


'Nuff Said! Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself!


I couldn't have said it better myself!

Polishing the contact points is not going to change you trigger from a gritty standard Milspec trigger to a Geissele S3G. It will simply make the trigger pull a bit smoother. It does make a difference somone can notice though. The only reason I do it is because I can tell the difference and it only take five minutes to do while the trigger and hammer are out. Would I go out of my way to take apart a brand new gun and do this? Probably not. But if I am putting one together from scratch you bet your bottom that I will take the extra five minutes to do this.

All you need is a dremel with a polishing bit and the finest polishing compound you can find. Just polishing over the areas of the trigger and hammer that contact each other with the compound until it is very shiny and then with a microfiber rag wipe down the components until they are clean and free of the compound. Then what I do when I assemble the gun is either put some gun butter or red wheel bearing grease on the areas that were polished just to help keep it lubricated and smooth feeling.

If you can't tell the difference between a stock trigger and one that was polished, in my eyes, you need to find a new hobby.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 1:00:24 PM EDT
You might want to check out Windham weaponry that gives instructions how to do what you are wanting to do to your trigger. I just let trigger time polish my parts. If I want a lighter trigger I buy one from a good company.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 4:11:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:


My understanding is that when you remove ANY amount of material from the trigger it can affect the surface hardness and cause accelerated wear.
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Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Do you harden parts after a trigger job? Not being a smart ass, just wondering.

Why would he?  They are hardened before he started, and he wouldn't remove enough material to get to the "not hardened" structure under, unless he was an idiot, which I doubt.


My understanding is that when you remove ANY amount of material from the trigger it can affect the surface hardness and cause accelerated wear.


Looking at the standard triggers its doesn't appear that there is any kind of hardening that would be lost if you polished it lightly. Hardening something effects the metal itself to a certain depth. If the machine that milled that metal flat wasn't enough to wear (or cut) through that hardened layer, your polishing won't. What people have said about sanding has more to do with keeping the surface flat that cutting through the hardened layer.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 4:42:14 PM EDT
Again, THIS is the same thing Bill Springfield was doing to stock triggers

Got away with it for quite awhile, then after the round count started climbing on some of his work and the doubling and full auto fire started.

HE WAS DOING THE SAME DAMN THING!!!

BATFE or your friendly local LEO is not going to care when you try and plead that you were only trying to save a few bucks over a better trigger.
Link Posted: 1/28/2014 4:48:09 PM EDT
Thank you to everyone for your input! I really appreciate the guys who are truly trying to help and I will keep you posted on how it goes. Also for everyone telling me to buy a SSA or any $200+ trigger group I am doing with what I have and since this is my first AR platform rifle, I find it in my best interest to learn with a standard mil spec setup before I jump in with the big boys.
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