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Posted: 1/8/2005 5:15:42 PM EDT
Was at the local indoor range the other day and I did not have my AR since this range does not allow rifles. Was talking to the owner of the range and he showed me some new 5.56 ammo that had grey plastic (nylon??) cases that he said were going to be used by the millitary. They were kinda half and half. Bottomhalf of case plastic ,shoulder aqnd neck portion brass. I called BS but he seemed to get offended. I did not take a box of them cause I did not want to risk them in my gun. Anyone heard or seen them as well??
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:18:47 PM EDT
I seen them for sale awhile back, price was decent, as for military use I dont expect it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:45:26 PM EDT
Who makes them. Would like to search it out.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:05:26 PM EDT
You're probably talking about Natec PCA Spectrum.
Here's a recent ammo forum thread.

Bottom line: Too little bang for too much buck.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 8:38:34 PM EDT
I bought two boxes a while back, and was not impressed. It fed OK, but the velocities wer inconsistent (probably because you can't get a solid crimp on plastic), and accuracy was poor. The weight issue is a non-factor since I'm not in the Marines anymore and don't have to lug around 400 rounds in a LBV and ruck.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 10:21:51 PM EDT
RUN AWAY, FAST from that ammo. One of my friends has had nothing but trouble with them. The case necks keep separating in the chamber, causing a nasty malfunction that is only cleared with a cleaning rod. Not good stuff. Hell, the rest of us won't even touch it even though he's offered it as free.....
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 1:27:14 AM EDT
Like someone mentioned earlier, it's probably the PCA-Spectrum ammo. What the range owner told you was BS. He probably wanted to unload that stuff on some unsuspecting customer. Just to let you know that U.S. Army RDECOM-ARDEC (Picatinny Arsenal) is the sole point for type classification and materiel release of any new munition (small arms ammunition, grenades, fuzes, mortar rounds, artillery rounds, tank rounds, etc.) intended for Army/USMC. Even though we have a number of STOs on lightweight weapons and ammunition, there is nothing that is even close to being ready for operational testing much less being type classified and materiel released to the field.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 2:44:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 2:49:10 AM EDT by Iceshark03]
I just asked about this stuff last night on here and it is Natec PCA Spectrum ammunition. The grey is apparently their civilian version. It should be fine in rifles chambered for .223 but there are problems with using it in a 5.56, specifically separation at the neck of the plastic cartridge. There is also a white version out which is what Natec's website says the government is currently testing. The white has a beefed up neck area to prevent the separations. Using either version in a semi-auto can lead to problems as the rifle heats up. Both versions are also thought to be underpowered. One guy on here appeared to have some luck with it in his .223 bolt action though.

It looks like good quality stuff at a nice price, but I'm not dropping money on 275 rounds just to find out I need to clear the chamber and barrel after each shot. This ammo is still in it's developmental stages and good luck getting any money back from Natec if it turns out to be crap even though they seem to admit they know it needs work.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 5:51:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By toxic:
They were kinda half and half. Bottomhalf of case plastic ,shoulder aqnd neck portion brass.



I have never seen any ammo as you have described it. The Natec, PCA Spectrum has a plastic neck, shoulder and body with a brass bottom. Did you get the name on the box?
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 5:57:17 AM EDT
I'm sure it was PCA... and that stuff is CRAP. I wouldnt shoot it if it was cheaper than Wolf.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 6:04:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 6:05:54 AM EDT by overdriv]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I'm sure it was PCA... and that stuff is CRAP. I wouldnt shoot it if it was cheaper than Wolf.



It's amazing how different folks have such different results from all this ammo. I shot 100 rds each (of the PCA tan & grey) through two of my ARs with zero problems. It was not as hot as some of the other stuff we have shot, but seemed good enough for plinking. Granted 200 rds isn't much of a test, but I'll certainly shoot the rest I have.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 6:21:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By overdriv:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I'm sure it was PCA... and that stuff is CRAP. I wouldnt shoot it if it was cheaper than Wolf.



It's amazing how different folks have such different results from all this ammo. I shot 100 rds each (of the PCA tan & grey) through two of my ARs with zero problems. It was not as hot as some of the other stuff we have shot, but seemed good enough for plinking. Granted 200 rds isn't much of a test, but I'll certainly shoot the rest I have.



200 rounds means nothing to me. When I see SEVERAL reports of case head seperations.... thats all I need to NOT EVER purchase that kind of ammunition... much less being plastic and understanding it's lack of crimp and neck tension capabilities....

This is just like Olympic ammo. TONS of reports of problems... then there are tons of people who "shot it and didnt have any problems" That doesnt mean anything! The fact is, that overall the ammo has a MUCH higher failure rate than quality ammo. That in itself keeps me from endangering myself or my weapons with it. Most of the people I know who defend know questionable ammo are those who bought some, didnt have any trouble, and dont want to think they made a bad/uninformed purchase. That was DEFINITELY the case in the greek Olympic ammo.... and people supported that stuff even AFTER Troy ran some through a .223 case gauge, and PROVED how poorly assembled and out of spec that stuff was.

I am not defending Wolf.... but at least Wolf is fairly consistent, and there are hardly ever (if at all) any cases of dangerous/out of spec reports with it. (other than slightly higher than average stuck case in the chamber reports with the Lacquer stuff)

To each their own. I pretty much shoot known quality M193, Black Hills, or my own handloads. If I just want cheap plinking ammo, then Wolf or Barnaul is the cheapest. Why mess with anything "suspect"?
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:20:56 AM EDT
I got some ammo similar to this in 38 spl. This stuff makes less noise and has less recoil than my ruger mk2 when i shoot it in a S&W M65. At first I though it was a squib load so I checked it out. I soon realized that all the rounds had almost no report or recoil. Maybe thats a "feature," but it seemed to be way underloaded for anything useful.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:23:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tyrone:
I soon realized that all the rounds had almost no report or recoil. Maybe thats a "feature," but it seemed to be way underloaded for anything useful.



That's not so much a "feature" as it is Newton's Third Law of Motion.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 9:39:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2005 9:40:28 AM EDT by overdriv]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By overdriv:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I'm sure it was PCA... and that stuff is CRAP. I wouldnt shoot it if it was cheaper than Wolf.



It's amazing how different folks have such different results from all this ammo. I shot 100 rds each (of the PCA tan & grey) through two of my ARs with zero problems. It was not as hot as some of the other stuff we have shot, but seemed good enough for plinking. Granted 200 rds isn't much of a test, but I'll certainly shoot the rest I have.



200 rounds means nothing to me. When I see SEVERAL reports of case head seperations.... thats all I need to NOT EVER purchase that kind of ammunition... much less being plastic and understanding it's lack of crimp and neck tension capabilities....

This is just like Olympic ammo. TONS of reports of problems... then there are tons of people who "shot it and didnt have any problems" That doesnt mean anything! The fact is, that overall the ammo has a MUCH higher failure rate than quality ammo. That in itself keeps me from endangering myself or my weapons with it. Most of the people I know who defend know questionable ammo are those who bought some, didnt have any trouble, and dont want to think they made a bad/uninformed purchase. That was DEFINITELY the case in the greek Olympic ammo.... and people supported that stuff even AFTER Troy ran some through a .223 case gauge, and PROVED how poorly assembled and out of spec that stuff was.

I am not defending Wolf.... but at least Wolf is fairly consistent, and there are hardly ever (if at all) any cases of dangerous/out of spec reports with it. (other than slightly higher than average stuck case in the chamber reports with the Lacquer stuff)

To each their own. I pretty much shoot known quality M193, Black Hills, or my own handloads. If I just want cheap plinking ammo, then Wolf or Barnaul is the cheapest. Why mess with anything "suspect"?



Falarak, I hear you and tend to do the same. Usually where there's smoke there's fire. It just amazes me that there can be so much difference in the way all this ammo shoots in different rifles. I wonder if rifle maintenance is a factor is some of the problems, and out of spec chambers, etc. Not trying to start anything here just my observations.

I agree, 200 rds does not validate any ammo, but to me it proves it's acceptable in my rifles. Probably won't buy any more of it, but will shoot the rest for sure. I hope this company get this ammo perfected as it is much lighter than brass ammo and made in the USA is also important to me. You are correct, each to his own.
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