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1/16/2020 9:48:49 PM
Posted: 1/17/2015 11:21:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 11:25:16 AM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
My girlfriend and I are trying to condense ammo types, we are both going to go with an ar15. We are going to get the uppers we want first, then match the lower appropriately.

The two uppers up for debate are of identical manufacture, barrel material, ect... The differences being configuration and cost.

Here are the uppers;

12 inch 1:7 CL carbine gas barreled upper to be turned into a pistol (not an SBR (paying that tax stamp feels like I'd telling the atf I think it is fair for them to make arbitrary rules (why do criminals get all the cool stuff? (atf shouldn't try and make people feel bad for being law abiding))))

16 inch 1:7 CL mid-length gas barreled upper to be turned into a carbine

The middy is slightly more expensive, and is also a blem.

Our options are

a- get two pistolas!(darn tiny rifles look cool)

b- get two carbines(ok, medium sized rifle look sweet too)

c - one of us get a pistol, one of us get a rifle

My uses are typical for a law abiding american in Oregon state, range(usually 125 yards maximum), shtf, HD, possibly some hog hunting(if I can figure out how to get my foot in the water).

I have researched this quite a bit, so I already know the common banter of the web on this matter. I know what I should be expecting in response, but please feel free to surprise me; that is, after all, why I thought it a fun idea to make this post.

p.s. I had tried to find a VS. like this on the googles but all I turned up was stuff about pistol caliber carbines.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:28:46 AM EST
I say C. One of each.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:08:48 PM EST
C



Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:09:40 PM EST
I say to get two carbines. Unless the pistol is no more than a range toy or HD weapon, there is no purpose to have one. I have many ARs and they include one AR pistol (w/o a SIG Brace). The pistol is nothing more than a fun gun for the range and another alternative for HD. You are much better off and better served by putting your money into two good carbines.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:14:58 PM EST
I vote for 2 carbines. 223 is anemic enough without the super short barrel. Just my .02.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:22:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NDT3:
I say C. One of each.
View Quote

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:40:16 PM EST
I have a two 7.5s, a 12.5 and a 16.

I love shooting my 7.5s at my indoor range.
When i want to stretch my legs.. I reach for the 16.

12.5 is just a nasty SBR.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:40:49 PM EST
Buy 1 and get the Tax Stamp for it.
Then buy 2 uppers :)
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:51:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VoodooMountain:
I vote for 2 carbines. 223 is anemic enough without the super short barrel. Just my .02.
View Quote


OP wants to range shoot, and have a HD distance of not more than 125 yards. Based on his criteria, why is it anemic?

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:03:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 2:04:20 PM EST by VoodooMountain]
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Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:04:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Alaska511:


OP wants to range shoot, and have a HD distance of not more than 125 yards. Based on his criteria, why is it anemic?

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Originally Posted By Alaska511:
Originally Posted By VoodooMountain:
I vote for 2 carbines. 223 is anemic enough without the super short barrel. Just my .02.


OP wants to range shoot, and have a HD distance of not more than 125 yards. Based on his criteria, why is it anemic?



For range use, use whatever floats your boat.
For HD under 50 yards it would be fine. Much further and bullet choice becomes more critical.

223 is anemic not for the intended use of the op, but rather because in comparison to other rifle rounds 223 is low on the totem pole. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my 223 but my bullet choice is paramount to the lethality of this round. Limitations are met earlier with this round as opposed to the 30 caliber siblings and expectations should reflect as such.

In the end, he asked for an opinion and I gave mine. You are entitled to yours. I much prefer a 16" as an 'all around' for the gained velocity and extended fragmentation range.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:09:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 2:28:38 PM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
I appreciate all the posts so far everybody,

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:17:53 PM EST
2 carbines. Better ballistics, and you can use a stock
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:59:47 PM EST
Pistols are for fighting your way to a rifle.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:53:42 PM EST
If you're only shooting out to 125m, then I vote D) Neither.

Get over your tax stamp phobia and go with 10.3-11.5" SBRs. Or if you want two different options, then an SBR and a 14.5-16" RECCE style build would cover you from 0-600m+.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:49:38 PM EST
In light of the new atf standing on ar pistols,


Carbines.

Even with the sig brace, AR pistols are still toys, IMHO
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:39:48 PM EST
For your uses, deffinately carbines.
BTW, where are you hog hunting? We have hardley any hogs here in Oregon, my understanding is basically "they've been seen", almost like big foot. If you are going into California to hog hunt check all laws before taking an AR down there.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 8:46:40 PM EST
My vote is for two pinned 14.5" uppers
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:10:45 PM EST
get 2 carbines then both of you get pistols....9mm or .45 caliber
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:23:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:24:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 10:29:15 PM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
haha, I am not going hog hunting lol, I would if I could find a place, I have herd there are infested private properties in eastern Or.

My understanding is that the property owners used to charge people to hunt the hogs, but they cant charge anymore, they can however let people hunt them; at least that's how it was explained to me.

I don't plan to ever go back to California for anything, isn't it funny how the border between OR and CA seems like the border between common sense laws and nonsense law lol.

Thanks guys, i'll take the hint that no one is suggesting getting two pistols. What an awful feeling I can buy a short upper, and whatever lower I want, but I am not aloud to put them together in any combination that would make me happy without paying $200 dollars to some government agency that seems to not do much more than make people sad, for what I would consider no reason whatsoever.
I feel like I'm caught in a sick joke.

Thanks everybody, I don't like complication, thins that seem like more trouble than they are worth to me; pinned anything, 922r, tax stamps, etc... haha so two middy carbines are the way I'm gonna go I suppose, any last minute defense for ar pistols?

p.s. We are condensing our pistol calibers as well, so we will have two 5.56 carbines, two 9mm pistols, an 870 police(rifle night sights), and my Ruger lcr (which I wish was the 9mm version)
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:28:03 PM EST
AR pistols cool to play with but your better off with a longer barrel and stock for that caliber its more effective that way...whats your and your girls firearms budget ?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:31:32 PM EST
Where are you getting middies from? Why get 2 identical guns?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:32:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 10:34:24 PM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
we are sharing a budget for both builds, probably close to 1800 for both which goes a long was over at PSA. I feel like with carbines we will have the most versatility, we can set them up for different jobs if we need to so they wont necessarily be identical, but some crossover is probably good when we are likely to be in the same situation if we even were to need the rifles.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:32:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MK5TRENCHKNIFE:
AR pistols cool to play with but your better off with a longer barrel and stock for that caliber its more effective that way...whats your and your girls firearms budget ?
View Quote

If there was no NFA I think ALL of my ARs would be 7.5 and 10.5"
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:42:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zackmars:
In light of the new atf standing on ar pistols,


Carbines.

Even with the sig brace, AR pistols are still toys, IMHO
View Quote


I have a pistol with a 10.5" carbine length barrel with sig brace. If you use the sig brace "illegally", it is no more a toy than a sbr with same specs or a mk18 cqbr(except thats its semi auto). However i can legally carry it loaded on my person, say in a sling bag, and in the event that it had to be used, not sure i would think about or be concerned with how i was using it. Yes, imo ar pistols do have a purpose that you cant do with an sbr.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:53:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 11:07:40 PM EST by Brutus2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jrs93accord:
I say to get two carbines. Unless the pistol is no more than a range toy or HD weapon, there is no purpose to have one. I have many ARs and they include one AR pistol (w/o a SIG Brace). The pistol is nothing more than a fun gun for the range and another alternative for HD. You are much better off and better served by putting your money into two good carbines.
View Quote


Dont get a pistol at all.. sage advice here. If you do get a pistol and the barrel is anywhere from 10.2" to 12" it will be a silly range toy and good for nothing else until you put a stock on it and make it an SBR.. then it magically turn into an effective carbine. Ballistics go from fizzle to nuclear kaboom. As far as the BATFE new and improved delusional bullshit goes.... I cheek-weld my AR15 pistol and M92 sometimes the recoil shoves the brace into my shoulder on string shoots..... never was my intention to allow that but shit happens. I own both SBR's and pistols, I am not giving up my pistols until the assholes re-classify the brace as a stock. Even then I will sbr my pistols keep the brace on them just to say F.U ( not anybody here in particular)......ooops off the rails here

But yea O.p I would get both as they are both effective weapons with their own strengths and merits
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:56:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AASG:

If there was no NFA I think ALL of my ARs would be 7.5 and 10.5"
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AASG:
Originally Posted By MK5TRENCHKNIFE:
AR pistols cool to play with but your better off with a longer barrel and stock for that caliber its more effective that way...whats your and your girls firearms budget ?

If there was no NFA I think ALL of my ARs would be 7.5 and 10.5"

Most of us would have rifles well under 16" if NFA wasn't a thing. I still think that is by far the best choice for OP.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:11:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 12:58:04 AM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
It sounds like there is a stark contrast between peoples opinions on pistols vs sbr being that the stock is the difference between it being one of the finest weapons you can own and not being worth its weight in pennies lol, but I agree if there where no dumb rules I wouldn't even need to ask.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:31:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thisisdudewhoru:


I have a pistol with a 10.5" carbine length barrel with sig brace. If you use the sig brace "illegally", it is no more a toy than a sbr with same specs or a mk18 cqbr(except thats its semi auto). However i can legally carry it loaded on my person, say in a sling bag, and in the event that it had to be used, not sure i would think about or be concerned with how i was using it. Yes, imo ar pistols do have a purpose that you cant do with an sbr.
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Originally Posted By thisisdudewhoru:
Originally Posted By zackmars:
In light of the new atf standing on ar pistols,


Carbines.

Even with the sig brace, AR pistols are still toys, IMHO


I have a pistol with a 10.5" carbine length barrel with sig brace. If you use the sig brace "illegally", it is no more a toy than a sbr with same specs or a mk18 cqbr(except thats its semi auto). However i can legally carry it loaded on my person, say in a sling bag, and in the event that it had to be used, not sure i would think about or be concerned with how i was using it. Yes, imo ar pistols do have a purpose that you cant do with an sbr.



Keyword, "illegal"
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:02:38 AM EST
Anybody willing to say that if they could only have 1 firearms that they would choose an ar pistol?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:39:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeepSpaceNote:
Anybody willing to say that if they could only have 1 firearms that they would choose an ar pistol?
View Quote


Have you ever shot an AR pistol? If you mentioned you had in a previous post I didnt see it. Point is, an AR pistol has a very small niche. And in its civilian legal configuration its worthless to me, perhaps not to you.

My opinion, get rifles. If your budget and situation allow in the near future, buy identical quality handguns that wont cost a fortune.

If you find yourself with money to burn next year experiment with an AR pistol to scratch the itch.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:53:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 2:02:51 AM EST by DeepSpaceNote]
haha, heres where you guys will laugh at me, I had a draco pistol, and I hated it. I though it was so cool till I shot it, then I was like,"damn this is boring and frustrating so shoot" however, I dont remember thinking it was too loud or flashy, I have practiced shooting with a float cheekweld on a carbine and it wasnt the dumbest thing to me. I was imagining though that something like an ar pistol could be surprizingly good in obstacle rich environments especially if you were to sat want to peak the the rifle around something.

I have been triyng to decide whether or not her an I should be doubling down on the same tasks or say long and short range simultaneous zombie stopping?

Also, is an ar pistol really more naise and blast than a shotgun or mag revolver?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:10:11 AM EST
Personally, I think AR pistols look awesome... but I have no use for one. Even 16" carbines are not difficult to maneuver with (you can always "over the shoulder" hold for turning around in hallways), and my pistols are for concealment or backup. For me, an AR pistol is too large/cumbersome for a pistol and too short for the 5.56 round. Kind of like the worst of both worlds. But dang it, they do look awesome!
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 10:00:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 10:01:28 AM EST by NDT3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Brutus2:


Dont get a pistol at all.. sage advice here. If you do get a pistol and the barrel is anywhere from 10.2" to 12" it will be a silly range toy and good for nothing else until you put a stock on it and make it an SBR.. then it magically turn into an effective carbine. Ballistics go from fizzle to nuclear kaboom. As far as the BATFE new and improved delusional bullshit goes.... I cheek-weld my AR15 pistol and M92 sometimes the recoil shoves the brace into my shoulder on string shoots..... never was my intention to allow that but shit happens. I own both SBR's and pistols, I am not giving up my pistols until the assholes re-classify the brace as a stock. Even then I will sbr my pistols keep the brace on them just to say F.U ( not anybody here in particular)......ooops off the rails here

But yea O.p I would get both as they are both effective weapons with their own strengths and merits
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Brutus2:
Originally Posted By jrs93accord:
I say to get two carbines. Unless the pistol is no more than a range toy or HD weapon, there is no purpose to have one. I have many ARs and they include one AR pistol (w/o a SIG Brace). The pistol is nothing more than a fun gun for the range and another alternative for HD. You are much better off and better served by putting your money into two good carbines.


Dont get a pistol at all.. sage advice here. If you do get a pistol and the barrel is anywhere from 10.2" to 12" it will be a silly range toy and good for nothing else until you put a stock on it and make it an SBR.. then it magically turn into an effective carbine. Ballistics go from fizzle to nuclear kaboom. As far as the BATFE new and improved delusional bullshit goes.... I cheek-weld my AR15 pistol and M92 sometimes the recoil shoves the brace into my shoulder on string shoots..... never was my intention to allow that but shit happens. I own both SBR's and pistols, I am not giving up my pistols until the assholes re-classify the brace as a stock. Even then I will sbr my pistols keep the brace on them just to say F.U ( not anybody here in particular)......ooops off the rails here

But yea O.p I would get both as they are both effective weapons with their own strengths and merits


LOL
So true. Everyone pisses and moans about the ballistics of the 10.3 inch barrels on a pistol.......but once it has a stock on it suddenly it becomes acceptable, somehow.
OP, if you have not already seen it here is a 345 page picture thread on the 10.3" barrel MK18: MK18 CQBR
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:04:19 AM EST
The carbine is more practical and easier to shoot accurately out to 100+ yards compared to the pistol. Always considered AR pistols more of a novelty unless they are SBRs.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:09:29 AM EST
even with no NFA I wouldnt go below 11.5 because ive seen shorter than that have cycling problems especially as they wear...with an $1800 budget you could build 2 PSA premium carbines and have enough left over for a vortext strikefire red dot and a BUIS for each rifle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:49:01 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zackmars:
In light of the new atf standing on ar pistols,


Carbines.

Even with the sig brace, AR pistols are still toys, IMHO
View Quote



I was wondering how long it would take for that to be brought up.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:28:29 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MK5TRENCHKNIFE:
even with no NFA I wouldnt go below 11.5 because ive seen shorter than that have cycling problems especially as they wear...with an $1800 budget you could build 2 PSA premium carbines and have enough left over for a vortext strikefire red dot and a BUIS for each rifle.
View Quote


I would like to hear more specifics about this.

OP: Given your "criteria" you might look at 14.5 pinned barrels for your zombie fantasy. I would bet that you and your lady would be very happy with a couple of lightweight 14.5s
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 1:49:49 PM EST
Did the OP say he was planning on turning a midlength into a carbine?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:11:17 PM EST
2 pinned 14.5 carbine gas. I have a Noveske/BCM Recce mid length gas that I have loved (16" barrel). I recently got a PSA 14.5" CHF upper (carbine gas) and threw a toolcraft BCG in it. It is my favorite right now. I have always wanted an SBR, and will still probably put one together one day, but since getting the 14.5 the need (for me) for an SBR doesn't feel as great. I can turn around in a hallway (in my home) without lowering the rifle and the overall length feels perfect. It cost $25 to have a local shop pin the upper for me.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 2:18:40 PM EST
I didn't take the pistol too seriously distance-wise until I got my 8" and benched 2moa at 200yd. Accuracy surprised the hell out of me. I'm stamping the pistol lower to an sbr and leaving my carbine as-is. Then I can buy more uppers for either, lots of uppers ... and a can.

I get it on the stamp. I blew it off for many years but went in to my shop yesterday and saw how easy it really was. Set up a trust and my sbr paperwork in 20 minutes and it's going in the mail tomorrow. Meh, I've spent more than $200 on worse, decided to just suck it up and get 'er done.

Anyhoo, Given what you got I'd do one each. Pistols are fun as hell to shoot.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:46:51 PM EST
Thanks everyone,

anyone use an ar pistol in a carbine class?
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