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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/16/2005 2:00:39 PM EDT
I currently have an AR Pistol. I have sent my Form 1 in to make it an SBR. There is a possibility I may have to move to a state which allows AR Pistols but does not allow SBR's after I receive the Tax Stamp. Can't I just change it back to a Pistol and get rid of the stock and still be legal regardless of how the lower is registered? If I move again to a state which allows SBR's I can get a stock and attach it as the Tax Stamp is good for life.

MadDog
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:21:12 PM EDT
I beleive you would have to have it removed from the registry for it to be legal in a banned state. Sorry
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:39:24 PM EDT
Yes, if it is an SBR and you move to a NON SBR state, even if you put the longer barrel on it the lower is still a SBR. You must have it removed from the registry (sorry, no refund) before moving to the non SBR state.
Now, here is the sticky part for which I have no certain answer.
You can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol because the lower is still a pistol's lower.
However, if you go from pistol to SBR, the lower is now a registered Rifle (albeit SBR) lower. If you remove it from the NFA registry does it go back to pistol??? On that I don't know. It seems to me that once the lower was officially a rifle lower, it is going to stay a rifle lower even if not in SBR form, but that is just a WAG. A letter from the ATFE I think would be in order.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:59:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Yes, if it is an SBR and you move to a NON SBR state, even if you put the longer barrel on it the lower is still a SBR. You must have it removed from the registry (sorry, no refund) before moving to the non SBR state.
Now, here is the sticky part for which I have no certain answer.
You can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol because the lower is still a pistol's lower.
However, if you go from pistol to SBR, the lower is now a registered Rifle (albeit SBR) lower. If you remove it from the NFA registry does it go back to pistol??? On that I don't know. It seems to me that once the lower was officially a rifle lower, it is going to stay a rifle lower even if not in SBR form, but that is just a WAG. A letter from the ATFE I think would be in order.




Good question.....
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:30:49 PM EDT
Not 100% on the NFA stuff but I was pretty sure once something is an SBR it's always an SBR. If you were able to remove it it could no longer be a pistol since it was transferred to a rifle at one time.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:58:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
I currently have an AR Pistol. I have sent my Form 1 in to make it an SBR. There is a possibility I may have to move to a state which allows AR Pistols but does not allow SBR's after I receive the Tax Stamp. Can't I just change it back to a Pistol and get rid of the stock and still be legal regardless of how the lower is registered? If I move again to a state which allows SBR's I can get a stock and attach it as the Tax Stamp is good for life.

MadDog



My impression was that once a rifle or SBR always a rifle or SBR. Once a receiver is attached to a rifle barrel it is permantley for the rest of its life a rifle (or SBR if properly registered). I thought you could never go back to a pistol per ATF. So if this is correct you would have to make it into a rifle.

Is my assumption correct?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 3:41:52 PM EDT
You can change from pistol to rifle and back to pistol again (TC ruling) but you are not changing the registration of the lower when you put the lower into Rifle config. It is still a pistol lower. If you build a pistol, you can put a rifle length barrel and stock on it and use as a rifle, then take off the stock, take off the rifle barrel, and put back on the pistol barrel and go back to pistol and back and forth as much as you want, just so long as you do not put the rifle stock on along with the pistol barrel. Problem is though that when you SBR the lower, you have now changed it from a pistol lower to an NFA SBR lower, and I do not know for certain that if you remove it from the NFA registry if it would go back to being a pistol lower, or just a normal rifle lower. My hunch is that once you make a pistol lower into a rifle lower (SBR) if you remove it from the registry it will go back to being just a plain old RIFLE lower, but not to the pistol lower as it started out. That is just a hunch though and I would advise anyone doing this to contact the ATFE and get it in writing if they have taken a pistol lower, converted to SBR, and now want to go back to pistol.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:03:43 PM EDT
How about this? If I have to move to a non-NFA State I can get another Pistol lower and switch the short upper back to a pistol. Then I could strip the NFA lower I currently have and not do anything with it until I move to an NFA friendly state. Or would just owning a stripped NFA lower be taboo?

MadDog
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:16:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 4:37:59 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By MadDogDan:
How about this? If I have to move to a non-NFA State I can get another Pistol lower and switch the short upper back to a pistol. Then I could strip the NFA lower I currently have and not do anything with it until I move to an NFA friendly state. Or would just owning a stripped NFA lower be taboo?

MadDog



you're forgetting one little thing..........in order for you to be able to take the SBR out of the state, you would first have to do some form, don't know what number it is, and get permission from the ATF for that to happen..........pretty sure, that the ATF will deny your application to have a SBR leave that state to a non-NFA state, wheather you strip that thing down or not.......to them that receiver with the serial number is the SBR.

what I would do is write the tech branch, and ask if you take it off the registery, will that receiver go back to being a pistol receiver, like it original was........or is it now a non-NFA rifle receiver. or just sell and transfer the thing as a SBR to someone else, before you move, and buy a pistol receiver.......just make sure that the local community you will be moving to allows "AW" type of pistol......just because the state may say it's OK, local cities or communities may not......so check the local ordiance.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:38:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 10:39:24 AM EDT by nobody-really]
You could buy a new lower, then strip and store the SBR lower in a safety deposit box in your old state. It’s legal and better then throwing away 200.00 dollars you paid on the stamp. Or you can buy a cheap safe 50 bucks at Wal-Mart and keep it at a friends or relatives in a NFA friendly state. It legal as long as you are the only one that has the key/combo to the safe.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 4:49:57 AM EDT
This thread seems to relate to another question that popped into my mind recently.

What is the difference between an SBR, in the form of a Rifle which has has a short barrel installed; versus an AOW such as a Pistol with a shoulder stock added? The concept of "Pistol to SBR" sounds "wrong" somehow and does not fit my limited understanding of NFA matters. Wouldn't the SBR have to use a Rifle receiver?

Another factor, don't AOW's transfer for $5 or something, while SBR would be a $200 transfer tax? BIG DIFFERENCE! Anyway, it seems like an AOW NFA registration would be truer to the "AR Pistol" concept than going the SBR route. Two ways to get to the same place?!

I'm thinking a stocked pistol "AOW" is where I would go with mine (sometime in the distant future).

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:23:10 AM EDT
BIG-BORE, I read your Thread w/the ATF Letter concerning their Ruling that IF you have ever had the Reciever as a Rifle,then you Cannot use it for a Pistol. DO YOU AGREE? Once you have your Lower as a Pistol lower,then I do not believe you can change it to a Pistol/Rifle/Pistol- now this is getting NUTS. Me,I would rather just buy a Lower for my Rifle,and a Lower for my Pistol,ATF can rule anyway they want,I wouldn't want to get caught w/my Pants down,if you get my drift?! You have put alot of time into this PISTOL-SBR-RIFLE topic and I for one appreciate your time. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 3:58:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kula223:
BIG-BORE, I read your Thread w/the ATF Letter concerning their Ruling that IF you have ever had the Reciever as a Rifle,then you Cannot use it for a Pistol. DO YOU AGREE? Once you have your Lower as a Pistol lower,then I do not believe you can change it to a Pistol/Rifle/Pistol- now this is getting NUTS. Me,I would rather just buy a Lower for my Rifle,and a Lower for my Pistol,ATF can rule anyway they want,I wouldn't want to get caught w/my Pants down,if you get my drift?! You have put alot of time into this PISTOL-SBR-RIFLE topic and I for one appreciate your time. Thanks.



That only refers to First Build. If the first build is a rifle, then it is a rifle, end of story. The ATF has said that once a rifle (first build) it is always a rifle and the only way to make a rifle into a "pistol" is to SBR it. If, however, the first build is a pistol then the lower is a pistol from that point on, regardless of what upper is attached to it. According to the TC Contender court ruling a pistol can be made into a rifle configuration (16 inch or longer barrel and stock with an OAL of 26 inches or more) and back again into pistol configuration (pretty much any barrel you want but NO stock) as much as you want so long as the rifle stock is not on the the frame the same time the pistol barrel is on there.

Look at it this way. You buy a stripped lower, it is that, only a stripped lower, not a rifle, not a pistol. The first build determines what the lower will be from that point forward. If built as a pistol, then it is a pistol and you are free to go the back and forth between rifle configuration (it is still a pistol lower) and back to pistol as much as you want so long as the pistol barrel is never on with the stock.
But if the first build is a rifle, then the lower is a rifle from that point forward and the ATF regulations say that once the lower is offically a rifle lower (first build), then it is a rifle forever and you cannot convert a rifle to a pistol unless you SBR it (and even then it is not a pistol, only a rifle with a short barrel or short OAL).
I know it makes no since at all that you can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol and all is OK but if you go from rifle to pistol then you are in violation. But the ATFE has never been know for their regulations making since, have they?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 2:27:46 PM EDT by Dawg180]
The beauty of an 80% lower that you finish out yourself, eh? All mine are "pistol" lowers to begin with!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:01:24 PM EDT
Big Bore,
I have three unbuilt lower receivers. I can't recall what the Form 4473 had them listed as, but my assumption is the RIFLE box was checked.

NOW, 1. Can this lower be built into a pistol. I ask because the BATF letter states "..make sure your dealer does not describe them as rifles of the From 4473"

Base on this, I am correct to assume that the 3 unbuilt uppers I own CANNOT be built into pistol due to the Form 4473 checkbox'd as RIFLES

Thanks,
Charlie
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:45:23 PM EDT
I would not build them into pistols***. It is my belief that the letter of the law is not what is really said on the 4473 but the first build. However, if they are described on the 4473 as "rifle" you have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. You may get around this if you can get a letter from the maker saying they were sold as stripped lowers and were never assembled into rifles or have butt stocks attached, or if you have some receipt that states they were stripped lowers. I think the statement about the 4473 was to remove any question that the lowers were stripped and not lowers with buttstocks attached, which would make them rifles forever. I think them being described on the 4473 as "rifles" puts you on shaky ground so to be safe I wouldn't do it.

Now, I was told by the ATFE that if they were called into NICS as rifles it doesn't matter squat. It is the description of the firearm that matters, not what it was called in to NICS as. So, go to your dealer and get copies of the 4473 (they have to give them to you but you will have to show ID) and see how they were listed on the back in the description. Don't worry how they were called in to NICS.

***You mentioned "rifle box checked" and I think that is for the NICS check so you should be OK so long as the description of the lower farther down on the page says just about anything but does not use the word "rifle" in the description.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:15:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
I would not build them into pistols***. It is my belief that the letter of the law is not what is really said on the 4473 but the first build. However, if they are described on the 4473 as "rifle" you have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. You may get around this if you can get a letter from the maker saying they were sold as stripped lowers and were never assembled into rifles or have butt stocks attached, or if you have some receipt that states they were stripped lowers. I think the statement about the 4473 was to remove any question that the lowers were stripped and not lowers with buttstocks attached, which would make them rifles forever. I think them being described on the 4473 as "rifles" puts you on shaky ground so to be safe I wouldn't do it.

Now, I was told by the ATFE that if they were called into NICS as rifles it doesn't matter squat. It is the description of the firearm that matters, not what it was called in to NICS as. So, go to your dealer and get copies of the 4473 (they have to give them to you but you will have to show ID) and see how they were listed on the back in the description. Don't worry how they were called in to NICS.

***You mentioned "rifle box checked" and I think that is for the NICS check so you should be OK so long as the description of the lower farther down on the page says just about anything but does not use the word "rifle" in the description.



Thanks, Big Bore. I don't need a NICS check because I have a CC Permit. No NICS with CCW. I'll need to follow-up on how my dealer "described" the lower receiver.
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