Philippine MSSR - "Marine Scout Sniper Rifle"

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Philippine MSSR - "Marine Scout Sniper Rifle"

AtlantaFireman

Fire Medic II

Joined May 2003
Posts 342
EE Offline

GA, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 2:27:54 PM EST

Filipino Marines are using a DPMS AR15/M16 rifle for sniper role. It seems that DPMS makes quality stuff.

"The armorers take an existing M16A1 lower receiver and replace the upper with a DPMS match upper and Barrel. This includes a floating aluminum handguard tube and a Harris bi-pod is attached to that. They use a Tasco Armored 3-9x40mm scope. They use a J&P match trigger that has been fine tuned. The rifles are tested and only get issued if they will shoot 1 MOA or better with M855 ammo."

Filipino Marines

My word is my bond.

LoneWolfUSMC Joined Sep 2004 Posts 707 EE Offline IN, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 3:53:24 PM EST That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless of course they never intend to take a shot over 500 yards. 5.56mm just peters out too quickly to be a "real" Military Sniper Rifle. It's fine for a Urban Sniper, but out in the bush I think it would come up lacking.

M4-TUNA Team Member Joined Aug 2003 Posts 1113 EE Offline FL, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 4:39:12 PM EST Damn at first glance I thought he had the spotting scope on the rifle.
	JUST SHOOT IT!

Coronado Joined Nov 2004 Posts 50 EE Offline ND, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 4:42:59 PM EST ^ word, Im like "WOH, now THATS inovative!" lmao

Variablebinary

Joined Oct 2003
Posts 739
EE Offline

UT, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 4:49:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:

That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless of course they never intend to take a shot over 500 yards.

5.56mm just peters out too quickly to be a "real" Military Sniper Rifle. It's fine for a Urban Sniper, but out in the bush I think it would come up lacking.

Dont some accurized AR15's take clean shots out to 1000 yards in high power matches with heavy gr ammo?

M4-TUNA

Team Member

Joined Aug 2003
Posts 1115
EE Offline

FL, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 4:51:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:

That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless of course they never intend to take a shot over 500 yards.

5.56mm just peters out too quickly to be a "real" Military Sniper Rifle. It's fine for a Urban Sniper, but out in the bush I think it would come up lacking.

Dont some accurized AR15's take clean shots out to 1000 yards in high power matches with heavy gr ammo?

They do but the round looses alot of power at that distance

It will kill but the % rate drops

JUST SHOOT IT!

LoneWolfUSMC

Joined Sep 2004
Posts 710
EE Offline

IN, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 4:55:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Dont some accurized AR15's take clean shots out to 1000 yards in high power matches with heavy gr ammo?

A clean hole in the target is not the same as a lethal shot on a human.

Also the rounds that they are using in High Power won't even feed from a magazine. They are hand loaded for those ranges.

I would think they would be better served by some off the shelf Remington PSS rifles in 7.62 NATO, or a Remington M24. ( I am sure they could have gotten that approved).

I can't for the life of me understand the Tasco scope. I have a Tasco on my play rifle. I would NEVER trust that thing to a serious engagement.

innocent_bystander Doesn't play well with others. Joined Nov 2000 Posts 8183 EE Offline AZ, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 4:57:44 PM EST Well, hopefully the barrel has a 5.56 chamber. DPMS is notorious for using .223 chambers. Been there done that. I have a JP trigger on my 3 gun rifle and love it. But there is no way in hell I would put that rifle into field use with a trigger system that relies on set screws. Tasco rubber armored scope in use by a military unit?
	"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

long-rifle-tactical Elif air ab dinikh allah Joined Mar 2003 Posts 3529 EE Offline VA, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 5:06:20 PM EST I have been to P.I. a few times and know of no place on any part of the area or the Islands except for the old range and Clark AFB that you could shoot over 500 yards due to foliage or buildings. Some Jungle areas have less than 20 yards visibility or less.
	Quran: the textbook of terrorism Don't like M9's in your face or tanks in your streets? Then don't torture, blow up or otherwise harm innocent men, women and children. Evil_ATF Team Member

AtlantaFireman

Fire Medic II

Joined May 2003
Posts 344
EE Offline

GA, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 5:12:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
I have been to P.I. a few times and know of no place on any part of the area or the Islands except for the old range and Clark AFB that you could shoot over 500 yards due to foliage or buildings.

Some Jungle areas have less than 20 yards visibility or less.

I think that was their reasoning.
"The limited ranges found in the Filipino jungles helps reduce some of the short comings of the round."

My word is my bond.

Lumpy196 Consistantly voted most likely to go postal Joined Aug 2002 Posts 20885 EE Offline AZ, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 5:17:51 PM EST There going to discover that handguard wasnt a good idea.....
	Its the right and duty of every American man to own and be proficient with a rifle capable of going to war. It's not like a big wave washed my hut away - Green_Ammo_223

LoneWolfUSMC

Joined Sep 2004
Posts 712
EE Offline

IN, USA

Posted: 3/12/2005 6:08:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
I have been to P.I. a few times and know of no place on any part of the area or the Islands except for the old range and Clark AFB that you could shoot over 500 yards due to foliage or buildings.

Some Jungle areas have less than 20 yards visibility or less.

Never been to P.I. so I will take your word on it.

Most of my Jungle Experience was in Okinawa, but we still had spots were a 1K shot was possible. (usual visibility was 20 yards or less).

druncuncas Joined Jan 2004 Posts 1252 EE Offline FL, USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 6:57:11 PM EST i imagine that 2700m kill the canadians got a while ago will soon be eclipsed.

wyv3rn Member Joined Jul 2003 Posts 1556 EE Offline USA	Posted: 3/12/2005 8:47:27 PM EST [Last Edit: 3/12/2005 8:48:49 PM EST by wyv3rn] Forget the rifle, where can I get this mystical M855 that shoots sub-MOA consistently? What a crock.
	If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment. -Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

AKJD

Joined May 2004
Posts 81
EE Offline

Posted: 3/12/2005 9:54:53 PM EST

I was there 5 years ago training a Pilipino Infantry Company CQB. In the area we operated there were plenty of areas where shots over 500 yards were possible. There are areas where much of the foliage has been stripped away for farming. Although not impressed by the training level of the military in general, I was impressed with their AMTU from the standpoint of what they were able to accomplish with very little in the way of resources. They could be very ingenious in overcoming problems and modifying equipment.

JD

redfisher Member Joined Nov 2002 Posts 2818 EE Offline FL, USA	Posted: 3/13/2005 1:30:58 AM EST I think these photos are also Filipino military sniper photos..... Same gun?

Speedinc

Joined Feb 2004
Posts 1018
EE Offline

MI, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 1:48:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:

That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless of course they never intend to take a shot over 500 yards.

5.56mm just peters out too quickly to be a "real" Military Sniper Rifle. It's fine for a Urban Sniper, but out in the bush I think it would come up lacking.

NO WAY MAN!! My SRT Leader shot 100% at Sniper school at 1000yds. 10 targets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO JOKE, using a AR15 20''!!!!!!!

long-rifle-tactical

Elif air ab dinikh allah

Joined Mar 2003
Posts 3531
EE Offline

VA, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 2:36:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By AKJD:
I was there 5 years ago training a Pilipino Infantry Company CQB. In the area we operated there were plenty of areas where shots over 500 yards were possible. There are areas where much of the foliage has been stripped away for farming. Although not impressed by the training level of the military in general, I was impressed with their AMTU from the standpoint of what they were able to accomplish with very little in the way of resources. They could be very ingenious in overcoming problems and modifying equipment.

JD

AKJD

Now this explanation sounds viable since you have been over on a recent training exercise, when I was stationed in P.I. it was a dense jungle outside of the city areas sans the agricultural villages and rural villages on the rim.

It has been a while since last on the Islands.

Quran: the textbook of terrorism

Don't like M9's in your face or tanks in your streets?

Then don't torture, blow up or otherwise harm innocent men, women and children.

Evil_ATF Team Member

redfisher

Member

Joined Nov 2002
Posts 2821
EE Offline

FL, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 2:38:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Speedinc:
NO WAY MAN!! My SRT Leader shot 100% at Sniper school at 1000yds. 10 targets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO JOKE, using a AR15 20''!!!!!!!

Far be it for me to question the claim, but I will offer a different view

I watched a Long-range shooter documentary recently featuring the US Palma Team. This is one of the oldest and most prestigious long range shooting organizations in the US (maybe world).
Palma Team web page

They have a 1,000 yard competition every year (since 1880 something), and have NEVER had a 10 out of 10 at 1,000 yards. (They actually do an 800, a 900, and then 1,000 yard-ers)

and that is using super-tricked out competition rigs.

Not saying your SRT leader didn't do it, but if he did, he should sign up for the Palma competition or maybe even call Ripley.

EL_TIRADOR

NRA High Power/Long Range - Expert

Joined Mar 2001
Posts 109
EE Offline

AZ, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 4:33:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By redfisher:
Originally Posted By Speedinc:
NO WAY MAN!! My SRT Leader shot 100% at Sniper school at 1000yds. 10 targets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO JOKE, using a AR15 20''!!!!!!!

Far be it for me to question the claim, but I will offer a different view

I watched a Long-range shooter documentary recently featuring the US Palma Team. This is one of the oldest and most prestigious long range shooting organizations in the US (maybe world).
Palma Team web page

They have a 1,000 yard competition every year (since 1880 something), and have NEVER had a 10 out of 10 at 1,000 yards. (They actually do an 800, a 900, and then 1,000 yard-ers)

and that is using super-tricked out competition rigs.

Not saying your SRT leader didn't do it, but if he did, he should sign up for the Palma competition or maybe even call Ripley.

You are a fool and have no idea what you are talking about! In Palma, we shoot 20 shot strings and it is VERY common to shoot a 200 with 12 X's. At Perry this year, in the Leech Cup, I shot a 196 with 6 X's and the second string of ten was a perfect 100. Just go to the NRA web site and look for yourself. Also, that's with iron sights at 1000 yds. The AMU uses M16's at 1000 with JLK 90's. Please get your facts straight before you post!

David Johnson
Tucson, AZ

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new-arguy

hard boiled

Joined Feb 2001
Posts 9057
EE Offline

FL, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 4:39:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
Originally Posted By redfisher:
Originally Posted By Speedinc:
NO WAY MAN!! My SRT Leader shot 100% at Sniper school at 1000yds. 10 targets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO JOKE, using a AR15 20''!!!!!!!

Far be it for me to question the claim, but I will offer a different view

I watched a Long-range shooter documentary recently featuring the US Palma Team. This is one of the oldest and most prestigious long range shooting organizations in the US (maybe world).
Palma Team web page

They have a 1,000 yard competition every year (since 1880 something), and have NEVER had a 10 out of 10 at 1,000 yards. (They actually do an 800, a 900, and then 1,000 yard-ers)

and that is using super-tricked out competition rigs.

Not saying your SRT leader didn't do it, but if he did, he should sign up for the Palma competition or maybe even call Ripley.

You are a fool and have no idea what you are talking about! In Palma, we shoot 20 shot strings and it is VERY common to shoot a 200 with 12 X's. At Perry this year, in the Leech Cup, I shot a 196 with 6 X's and the second string of ten was a perfect 100. Just go to the NRA web site and look for yourself. Also, that's with iron sights at 1000 yds. The AMU uses M16's at 1000 with JLK 90's. Please get your facts straight before you post!

Sounds like whatever show he watched had its facts wrong. Look at how politely Redfisher offered a different point of view. And then you come in and call him a fool. Thats a real shame. Congradulations on your shooting, but lighten up on your posts... If he is incorrect and you have better info to offer, just do so.

FDCC - 1*
FL Defensive Carbine Club; www.fdcc.us/
Go chrome or go home!

new-arguy

hard boiled

Joined Feb 2001
Posts 9058
EE Offline

FL, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 4:40:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I think these photos are also Filipino military sniper photos.....

Same gun?

img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/a_sfp47.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/a_sfp46.jpg

No, thats not the same gun. The gun in that picture shows a MK12Mod0, the pic in the first link shows a gun set up totally different.

FDCC - 1*
FL Defensive Carbine Club; www.fdcc.us/
Go chrome or go home!

redfisher

Member

Joined Nov 2002
Posts 2827
EE Offline

FL, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 5:55:23 AM EST

Fool?

Excuse my ignorance Mr. EL_TIRADOR NRA High Power/Long Range - Expert

My information reference is the Palma.org- USA web site. An excerpt is provided below:

The PALMA Trophy Team Match

The PALMA Trophy Match Team is shot in three stages of slow fire in the prone position. The first stage is two sighting shots and 15 shots for record per shooter at 800 yards. The second stage is two sighters and 15 shots for record at 900 yards per shooter. The third stage is two sighters and 15 shots for record at 1000 yards per shooter. Each national team consists of 16 shooters who form ranks and shoot on four targets at each stage.

The PALMA bolt action rifles are 7.62mm NATO caliber (Winchester .308) and fire Match Grade ammunition supplied by the host nation using a 155 grain bullet.

Micrometer aperature (iron) sights are used for sighting.

The target is six feet square and has a 20 inch bullseye (10 ring). An aiming black circle of 44 inches includes a 9 and 8 ring. A possible score of 150 points can be achieved by each team member in each stage of fire. This adds up to 7,200 possible points for each national team per day of competition.

It goes on to say in the Spirit of Competition section:

The USA PALMA Team is proud to identify with competing for victory, understanding that if you somehow did not win, you must call up additional personal resource to stand proudly in good sportsmanship and congratulate those who just outperformed you. Then to analyze the reason for defeat and deepen your commitment and resolve to meet your competition in the future and go for it all. A champion never quits, a quitter never lasts to grow into a champion.

It sounds like they promote sportsmanship and integrity in their organization, huh?

ALPHAGHOST

Joined Jul 2004
Posts 4244
EE Offline

MS, USA

Posted: 3/13/2005 8:49:26 AM EST

www.snipercentral.com/mssr.htm--link

when i was in PI for some college a couple of yrs ago, all i saw was a bunch of guys w/ the old m16a1 w/ triangular HG and a1 sights, but they looked like a mean bunch of guys

5.56 ammo would mostly have ~ 150 lb or energy at 500yrds--crappy

but, most of the terrain in PI is close-in ranges either in urban or jungle terrain

h/w, up north (bagio, province) areas, its kinda hilly and terrain can be pretty sparse....5.56 might do the trick......

mach6

Joined Dec 2001
Posts 335
EE Offline

DEU

Posted: 3/13/2005 9:40:46 AM EST

This PI solution clearly meets both their operational and fiscal requirements. There's a big lesson here for anyone with a shred of objectivity. I'd just question the effectiveness of the SS109-spec ammuntion, but again that could be a resource management concern.

Over here in Germany, I'm working with a US unit that is frankly doing something quite similar, except that we'll use 18.0" barrels. Looking at a weapon that will do what the M16A4 will do in the real world and yet provide good service as a carbine. Not many guns to be built, though.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Philippine MSSR - "Marine Scout Sniper Rifle"

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