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Posted: 8/10/2005 8:50:46 AM EDT
[#1]
Since you are buying the barrel from John, call him at White Oak Precision and ask what he thinks. He can do poly if thats what you want. Until I see/hear more about polygonal, I'm sticking with what I know works, and a has a proven record. The only complaint anyone has about the barrels is they are hard to get clean. With traditional, round barrels the brush/patch takes to the lands/grooves and cleans very well twisting down the barrel. With the poly barrels, the brushes/patches - tend to pull straight through. I need to see more/talk to more people about the "actual" increased life. I mean serious shooters who track round counts and plot groups across the course - real data. I read something about a 11" barrel shooting 1" at 100yds after 15K rounds. That doesnt mean anything. As the throat wears, its the long range accuracy that suffers. I have seen many several thousand round barrels that are toast and will not shoot at 600yds, but still shoot MOA at 100yds and even 300yds! I sold a Denny an SS 11" Pac-Nor barrel a couple years ago, he said it shoots MOA all day long. If someone wants to take the time to shoot groups at 100, 200, and 300 yds and compare groups over time that will tell much more. These may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but its too soon to tell for me. Until I get more input from the people I trust, and rely on, I'm sticking to what I know works. I'd rather know for myself and my customers whats really what, instead of blowing stars up your skirt about the latest tactical more better marketing buzzwords, regarding something I have little to no experience with. As I said, too new for me. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 9:09:01 AM EDT
[#2]
hk has been useing poly Bbls for a looong time in their rifles, glock too, there is a increase of vel because of the tighter seal around the slug, and they're easy to clean, I have a harder time with the land and groove design than the poly to get clean
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Posted: 8/10/2005 9:26:40 AM EDT
[#3]
Are we talking about machine gun barrels, or precision barrels? The use in HK barrels doesnt tell me much - a 3" 100yd group from a new barrel with ball ammo, the clunky HK trigger, and a 3" group at 100yds 10krds later leaves too many variables. I'm looking from the precision side, which in the AR world is driven by competition shooters. As poly gets used more and more in the AR platform, we will learn more and more. I'm also interested in what the barrel makers are doing. Would they push something that cuts their sales down? If they really do last as long as they are supposed to, people wont be replacing barrels nearly as often. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 11:05:58 AM EDT
[#4]
Bigbore, David Tubb is a big fan of polygonally rifled precision barrels. Last I knew he used only Schneider stainless polygonal barrels in all his rifles, and that's what comes on the TUBB 2000.
There must be something good about them. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:20:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Wow, this is really interesting. Is there a place I can read more about these?
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:56:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Bigbore, you raise some very valid points. More data is definitly needed. I've known for awhile that D. Tubb used polygonal barrels but I've never seen him write as to the reason why. I wish there were some folks out there using them on a precision AR. I remain intrigued, but that WOP Krieger is a known quantity for sure.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 12:58:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Have you read his second book (Rifle Shooter)? In it he gives some of his rationale for using polygonals. IIRC, he started with them in Silhouette, and carried them over to Highpower. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 1:02:45 PM EDT
[#8]
tag
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:34:58 PM EDT
[#9]
I could be confused about the whole issue, but I think there are two types of "polygonal" barrels.
One type of barrel called "polygonal", from a cross-sectional view, looks like, oh, a stop sign. This would be the Glock barrel. It has no lands and grooves per normal rifling. The second, from a cross-sectional view, has lands and grooves, but the lands are not square or rectangular shaped, but could be described as trapezoidal, like a pyramid with the top half cut off. That's the way I understand it after Mike Rock tried to explain it to me. If someone here has a better handle on the concept, please enlighten us. John P.S. Perhaps to be more precise we could differentiate between polygonal "barrels" and polygonal "rifling." |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:41:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Only way to be sure is to see the barrel or display a cross section.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 2:57:16 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm aware of theTubb connection, but I also know 2 local High Masters who had Schneider stainless polygonal barrels OEM on their T2Ks. one shot good for a little bit, and the other shot good short range, but was worthless at 600yds. Both were toast under 2K rounds. They were replaced with traditional rifled barrels. Another local High Master has a WL poly barrrel on his rattle battle rifle, because as a 24" match rifle barrel it wouldnt shoot very well at all. I have direct information relating to 3 poly barrels, 2 in 6mm, and 1 in .223. All 3 of these guys are on the SEMNO team, so you may know them. Dont forget Tubb was a big fan of the SR25 Match rifle too  Theres a reason that didnt go very far.
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Posted: 8/10/2005 3:24:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Good point about he SR25. I was not aware of Schneiders having such a failure to live up to expectations. I have a WOA Wilson on hand for when my RRA Wilson finally dies, but my Model 70 wears a Krieger, and I think that's what it will get again. |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 3:58:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Can we get Denny in here to chime in with his experiences?
Justin |
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Posted: 8/10/2005 6:50:30 PM EDT
[#14]
tag
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Posted: 8/11/2005 8:30:57 AM EDT
[#15]
Tag for reference.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 8:48:14 AM EDT
[#16]
.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 9:21:24 AM EDT
[#17]
Tagged.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 9:25:39 AM EDT
[#18]
Bump. Because I can't tag.
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Posted: 8/11/2005 12:37:15 PM EDT
[#19]
PAGING DENNY! PAGING DENNY! 
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Posted: 8/12/2005 4:30:21 AM EDT
[#20]
The barrel I got from Steve has around 5K rounds down it, many of them full auto. It is still holding MOA at 100. Being an 11.5 and only equipped with an Eotech longer range shooting has not been done with it. I didn't do any break in on this barrel. I went easy on it for a hundred rounds or so and then have been treating it like any other barrel since then.
I have four Noveske barrel that just came in. They are poly barrels in 416 stainless. 2 are 14.5 Afgans and two are 10.5 in. Most liley I will mount up one of the 14.5 for testing as the velocity will be more in line with longer ranges and scope it with a high powered scope for a real test. Reports from the field indicate great accuracy and some increase in velocity and barrel life. I am planning on mounting one of them up for testing. The barrels are beautifully done. The extensions are M4 cut, his propriatary chamber that will handle 223 and 556, 1:7 twist and set up for LaRue gas blocks. They come standard with a bead blasted matte finish. Pat Rogers is a fan of Noveske's polygonal barrels. We will see. Denny |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 4:44:32 AM EDT
[#21]
I have heard the same thing from a well-known BR gunsmith. He said he scoped a T2K barrel recently that had only 900 rounds and was toast as well. Don't know if it is the cartridge (6XC) or the barrel design, but I know I can't afford to replace barrels every 1000 rounds.... |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 4:53:29 AM EDT
[#22]
To make sure there is no confusion - this is a standard rifled barrel, not poly. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 4:59:01 AM EDT
[#23]
The 10-8 crew is hard on their 10.5 Noveske Poly barrels and they have done nothing, but impress them. My buddy (JC) who helped with the design of these barrels has well over 14K through his Noveske 10.5 (most of it via F/A) and shoots 1 MOA @ 200yds. I have PERSONALLY never seen a 10.5" SS barrel due that.
I also know that some of the top tier SF guys are running this barrel. From various INFORMED sources the poly rifling appears the way to go. C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:22:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Now if Noveske can find a way to chrome line a CMV/4150 poly barrel and maintain the accuracy they will have created the Uber Tactical Barrel!
 I know I keep pushing the envelope, but one day someone will make an AR barrel like that...  
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:29:18 AM EDT
[#25]
So the Pac-Nor barrel you sold him had conventional rifling? |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:35:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Grant, Are you aware of the Carbon Fiber wrapped barrels from ABS? According to Tom (twl is his board name) from MGI, the Carbon Fiber wrapped barrel can be polygonal rifled. My question to you is, is there any reason why a polygonal rifled Carbon Fiber wrapped barrel wouldn't yield the same results as the Noveske Pac-Nor polygonal rifled barrels? In other words, is all polygonal rifling identical (not considering twist rate)? Thanks. Justin |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:41:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Just buy a SS barrel! C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:43:38 AM EDT
[#28]
I cannot answer this. I will just say that not all barrel makers are equal. There is a difference between a mass produced barrel by a factory worker and one produced by the owner of company who signs his name to every barrel. C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:51:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Grant, The ABS barrels are far from mass produced. They are entirely custom (length, twist rate, rifling, caliber, etc...). I guess my question is if there is a standard for polygonal rifling or do the different manufacturers just do what they feel is best? The reason I ask is because it would be great to have the benefits of a Noveske Pac-Nor polygonal rifled barrel and the advantages of an ABS Carbon Fiber wrapped barrel. The solution: an ABS Carbon Fiber wrapped barrel with polygonal rifling. Would you agree? Justin |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:15:53 AM EDT
[#30]
My comment was not directed at ABS and realize that carbon fiber barrels are NOT a mass produced item. I do not know if there is Std. for Poly Rifling. I also know nothing of the carbon fiber barrels so I am not willing to say that it would be an optimal choice (need further research and personal experience with said barrel). C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:26:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Grant, So then it's possible that a polygonal rifled barrel from one manufacturer (i.e., Noveske/Pac-Nor) could be entirely different (and therfore yiled entirely different results as well) when compared to a polygonal rifled barrel from another manufacturer (i.e., ABS)? I will ask twl to chime in with his two cents as he would most likely know if there was a standard of sorts for polygonal rifling. Justin |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:41:26 AM EDT
[#32]
dont feel bad i can't either, but i still do it
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:44:47 AM EDT
[#33]
cityslicker i am also very interested in your questions because im thinking of the same bbl build on a LW gas pistion MRS, please let me kow what you find out. thanks |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:45:20 AM EDT
[#34]
Correct - my point is a high round count at 100-200yds tells you nothing. To get a realistic picture of barrel life you need to track TE and its effect on long range groups. These may be great machine gun barrels capable of minute of dead for thousands of rounds, but there isnt enough data to look at the "precision" side of things. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 6:56:01 AM EDT
[#35]
I wouldn't agree that 100-200yd shots below 1MOA with over 14k in rounds (most on F/A) isn't nothing as I have seen many a short barreled AR that would come near this capability. I also know that my buddy shoots his out to 600M and it has performed very well from what he tells me. C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 7:20:08 AM EDT
[#36]
I don’t know who your buddy is, how he defines very well, or why hes even shooting an 11” barrel at 600yds. As of now, my only direct reference to poly barrels is from 3 NRA High Masters – who by definition average no less than a score of 97 from 200-600yds, aiming at a 2MOA 10 ring, with a 1MOA X-ring in the center. None of those 3 still shoot poly barrels, and each said they didnt last any longer than the standard barrels they are shooting now. These things are too new, and there isnt enough documented data to claim much of anything. There is a big difference between precision MOA shooting and military Minute of Dead. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 7:35:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Isn't the Heckler & Koch PSG-1 a polygonal rifled barrel? That rifle has a fairly long and well documented history of being extremely accurate at long range doesn't it?
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Posted: 8/12/2005 7:50:02 AM EDT
[#38]
Well my friend is ex Marine Recon and current Army SF. He shoots out to 600M with his 10.5 because HE can.  He will not accept barrels/weapons that are not EXTREMELY accurate. So if he tells that the 10.5 Noveske does VERY WELL out to 600M then it is holding a tight group.C4 |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 7:57:09 AM EDT
[#39]
In response to the questions above about ABS barrels and polygon rifling blanks, ABS does make carbon-fiber barrel systems using Pac-Nor polygon rifled SS blanks, and has made several in the past, and is making a couple right now, in fact.
The standard ABS barrel blank is a Mike Rock SS 6-groove button rifled match barrel blank. There is an upgrade option to the Mike Rock 5R point-cut rifling SS match barrel blank. However, we can, and do, make these carbon-fiber barrel systems on other match blanks, and we will do so on customer order. Pac-Nor polygon rifled barrels are a viable and obtainable option from ABS. ABS does not claim any particular superiority of the polygon rifled blanks from Pac-Nor, but we do respond to customers desired specifications, and will make one of the ABS barrels in that form of barrel on request. Regarding the LW conversions on ABS barrels, we are cautiously moving toward that with a couple of customers right now, but they are doing it on their own responsibility, and accepting that the barrel warrantee is voided when doing a piston conversion to the barrel. We have no reason to believe that the ABS carbon-fiber barrel system will have any problems at all with the LW conversions, but we haven't tested them with it, and thus we cannot warrantee the barrel when converted. We will ship the barrel to the customer, and they can do as they wish with it after they get it. But, for the time being, the warrantee will not apply after a piston conversion is done to it. Perhaps at a later date, when enough info is in, we can change that policy. So, at this time, it can be done as long as the terms and procedures are understood. |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 8:07:37 AM EDT
[#40]
Thanks twl. I appreciate the response. Justin |
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Posted: 8/12/2005 9:48:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Tag.
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:29:41 AM EDT
[#42]
I have one more 11" Pac-Nor here like I sold Denny, I'd love to see what it does at 600yds. But, the only range I know I shoot something like that at that distance is in MI, where SBRs are a no-no 
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Posted: 8/12/2005 10:47:08 AM EDT
[#43]
I have limited access to a five hundred yard range. I would also love to see what my 10.5" Noveske could do out that far, just for the fun of it. I certainly did not buy it with this in mind, but I am curious. The range is over two yours away on a very private club with a three-year waiting list. I get access every now and again because I have a co-worker who is a member. I'm sure a shoot can be arranged with a few phone calls. I will post results after I make this happen.
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Posted: 8/12/2005 1:08:49 PM EDT
[#44]
I agree that short barreled AR's are NOT my choice for long range shooting, but if you ya gotta take the shot you use what ya got! C4 |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 1:50:36 PM EDT
[#45]
btt
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Posted: 8/16/2005 2:24:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Okay, here's my take on this issue.
This is similar to what I just wrote to Kal-El in an IM just now. All of these barrels being discussed are top quality match grade barrels. There isn't a clunker in the bunch. If you are looking for the ultimate in long range accuracy, the current match shooter trend is with high quality cut-rifled barrels in stainless steel. Mike Rock 5R is an excellent example. So are Krieger, Hart, Lilja, and others. If you are looking to squeeze a couple of percent of extra velocity out of your barrel with hot loads, the polygon is good because it provides a gentler pressure curve, due to the way the rifling engages the bullet. So you can run your ammo hotter with less chance of overpressure issues. This is why the Pac-Nor polygon barrel is popular with AR shooters, especially with the SBR crowd, which have velocity-challenged barrel lengths. But, don't expect the velocities to be better with just any low-powered ammo. The benefits come with the hot loaded stuff which can be exploited by the pressure-curve situation in the polygon rifling. It's not a "magic rifling". It simply has a characteristic which allows hotter loading of the ammo with less likelihood of pressure spikes causing overpressure conditions in the case. If you are looking to get accuracy very close to the very best, but wish to spend a little less money, there is a wide selction of very good barrels to choose from that will do everything you ask of them, but probably won't win competition matches, but will come close to doing it. Rock 6-groove SS button-rifled match barrel is our offering in that category. We offer many selections of blanks which can receive our carbon fiber treatment, and we let the informed customer select the blank that he feels is right for him. We offer guidance if requested, and it really makes no difference to us what blank he chooses, as long as he gets what he wants. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 2:25:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Long Range week at Camp Perry, I've been able to talk to several people who know what they are talking about, and none of them like poly barrels in precision rifles, and none of them bought them twice. Krieger is King by a wide margin at Perry this week. These are top shooters who count rounds and barrel life regarding MOA capability to 1K yds. General thoughts are they are hard to clean, foul easy, shoot good bullets good, and bad bullets really bad. And no, they do not last any longer than a standard barrel. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 2:31:27 PM EDT
[#48]
found this article, maybe some people might be interested
"Subject: Re: polygonal rifling From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com> Date: Apr 23 1997 Newsgroups: rec.guns Barry S Brummett wrote: # What does "polygonal rifling" mean? How is it different from other # kinds? Is it a process or a pattern or what? Thanks in advance. Instead of the rifling being square and hanging down in the bore so that it can engrave a square notch in the bullet it has flats where the rifling would be. The bullet is not upset much. Instead of having 6 or 8 sharp knotches it will have small flats that are very unnoticeable. This makes the bullet fly better in the wind because there is no sharp edges to bite into a cross wind. The bullet jacket is not deformed as much so the chances of loose cores are much less. Since there is no sharp corners to burn off the barrel life is much longer and is dependent on heat checking alone to end its life. That is one major reason most barrel makers are not interested in them. It would decrease their business by half. They are more difficult to make than regular rifled barrels for a couple of reasons one being they are difficult to lap and give a cut barrel maker more problems due to tooling. Gale McMillan" after reading what bigbore said i think i will go with a Rock ABS bbl |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 2:45:04 PM EDT
[#49]
The radiused edges of the rifling are also present in the Rock 5R rifling, and this form of rifling is known for keeping the deformation of the bullet to a minimum. Also, in the 5R, the lands are not directly opposite from each other in the bore, which has less "squashing" effect on the bullet. These are a couple of reasons why the 5R is so popular with long range shooters.
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Posted: 9/20/2005 9:09:56 PM EDT
[#50]
I LOVE this Site, so much info
I also hate it, you know why
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