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Posted: 1/7/2006 7:33:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 7:34:54 PM EDT by Variablebinary]
So for those that didn’t know, the PS90 is for sale at your local dealer. I got to dump 200 rounds through one, and a recently approved SBR AR15. Neither guns were mine, but I did buy a new SIG 228 with night sights from the same place the PS90 was purchased. The SBR AR15 was an RRA Entry Tactical with a Bushmaster 11.5" HBAR. The PS90 was stock other than a rail and Aimpoint M3

Distance: 50 yards
Ammo: SS197 and SS196 for the PS90, and M193 for the AR15

Accuracy: At 50 yards, this isn’t a big deal, but the AR15 was dead on, as expected. The PS90 was accurate enough with the largest distance between hits being about an index finger length. PS90 recoil even with the hotter SS197 (2000fps) was almost nothing. Report was mild. It had a sharp snap but it wouldn’t blow your ears like the AR15 SBR would. The AR15 recoil was higher, and it was louder. Flash was still quite high even with an Phantom 5C1. PS90 flash was slight. The PS90 has an extended flash hider to make the barrel legal

Ergos: The PS90 is surprisingly comfortable even in a bladed stance, all the controls are ambi and easy to use. Take down is simple, and after seeing the mechanics I wonder if it is even possible for this gun to jam. There is an internal dust cover where the bullets drop from. Notice I said drop and not eject.

The PS90 is very compact and short. The 14.5" barrel makes it nose heavy. The AR15 is obviously more adjustable with a 6pos stock and better irons. The PS90 reflex sight is shit, which is why the aimpoint was purchased. The PS90 comes up to your eye fast and is very quick on target, despite the short stock. It also feels more stable to shoot fast because of the way the dual grip is formed. It did give me a cramp in my wrist though because the length of pull wasn’t comfortable for extended durations. The AR15 obviously doesn’t have this problem

Durability/Reliability: RRA is DEA tough. Not a jam or issue worth reporting. We ran out of PS90 ammo kind of quick so the RRA ate an extra 500 rounds or so. The PS90 didn’t jam either and no one got tagged with brass from it either. My friend who owned the gun dropped it on the floor with 25 rounds left in a 50 round mag. A goose down jacket acted as a buffer so it didn’t hit concrete, but it still fell hard. The bullets didn’t come loose as was rumored to be a problem with early P90's. He repeated this process 4 times and nothing happened so he stopped because I was going to cry if he did it again


This was a spur of the moment session and no one had a digi cam. I will try and get up to logan and take pictures of the PS90 next weekend, or maybe tomorrow. Umm, if anyone has any questions about the PS90 and how it compares to the SBR AR15, just ask. Next up. XCR vs. Entry Tactical Lots of people waiting on this one

Also the P90 trigger wasn’t any better or worse than a standard single stage AR15 trigger. Kind of mushy, like a DAK trigger, but not bad. The RRA two-stage was as nice as it always is. The SBR AR15 looked cooler, but the PS90 begs to be SBR'd and become the a liberal's worst nightmare. Add some black norrells and it is officially the most evil of all EBR's


This picture is from CMMG posted in the Five Seven forum
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:09:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 11:11:56 PM EDT by AlCapone]
how much are these going for?

thought about one but think ill wait for reviews...

LOOKS LIKE THE HAD TO DO THE HK THING AND MAKE THE STOCK ANOTHER COLOR BESIDES BLACK

we will see

how much are the rounds going for? i know they wern't cheap last i looked...
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 11:16:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AlCapone:
how much are these going for?

thought about one but think ill wait for reviews...

LOOKS LIKE THE HAD TO DO THE HK THING AND MAKE THE STOCK ANOTHER COLOR BESIDES BLACK

we will see

how much are the rounds going for? i know they wern't cheap last i looked...



$1399 for the PS90
They do offer black
$28 a box of 50 for SS197

Ammo will kill this thing if it doesnt come down quick
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:39:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:23:50 AM EDT
Did you happen to notice how the barrel is attached in the PS90? Does it require tools to be removed/installed?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:01:26 AM EDT
It reminds me of that SciFi show "Star Gate SG1".
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:07:11 AM EDT
Gee, wonder how long before the "caters to the local hunter types" FFL gets one of those in. Thanks for the review! Now where is that Sig 55x civilian we keep asking for???

Woody
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:09:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
It reminds me of that SciFi show "Star Gate SG1".

They use P90s a lot on Stargate. That's where most people have seen 'em-and gotten the urge to get one!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:48:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
It reminds me of that SciFi show "Star Gate SG1".


It's a P90 with a hard on.

What's up with the new avatar?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:17:33 AM EDT
Anyone know if the muzzle device on the front is a flash hider or muzzle brake?

Or, more specifically, anyone know if this is legal for us poor SOBs in the AWB states?

My guess is that it is legal in AWB states, because it does not have a "pistol grip", but would appreciate any input. Thanks!

Will
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:27:10 AM EDT
Thanks for the report. It's nice to know that FN didn't cave to political pressure and followed up with a promise. Wish HK would do the same.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:38:16 AM EDT
I guess if it was turned into an SBR to look more like the original P90 I would want one. I really don't like the looks of it. I don't really care for the looks of the FS2000 (?) either. I am going to wait to see if all the other rumors of the Sigs and Scars etc are correct before I buy a non AR15 type weapon.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FlyingFive0:
I guess if it was turned into an SBR to look more like the original P90 I would want one. I really don't like the looks of it. I don't really care for the looks of the FS2000 (?) either. I am going to wait to see if all the other rumors of the Sigs and Scars etc are correct before I buy a non AR15 type weapon.



If you are talking about the US made Sig 550, that is not a rumor... the plan is to release it at SHOT this year.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:48:05 AM EDT
Doesn't the 5.7mm round still suffer from an
anemic performance when compared to the 5.56?
Woudn't this preclude the P90's selection as a
shoulder fired weapon in a deadly force situation?
No trying to be a smartass, I would really like to know.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:20:20 AM EDT
Flash hider and detachable magazine. Two evil features, should be okay in the banned states except CA which only allows one. Would need compliant magazines.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:31:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Doesn't the 5.7mm round still suffer from an
anemic performance when compared to the 5.56?
Woudn't this preclude the P90's selection as a
shoulder fired weapon in a deadly force situation?
No trying to be a smartass, I would really like to know.







Im not up to date on the subject but 5.7 is still meant to be a smg round, basically something better than 9mm but still not a rifle powered round. Id still take .223 over it anyday


Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:34:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:36:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:47:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wreckdiver:
Thanks for the report. It's nice to know that FN didn't cave to political pressure and followed up with a promise. Wish HK would do the same.



What are you talking about? When HK completes the factory, you will see them. They can't sell weapons made out of the country in the states, so right now its all a moot point.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:31:38 AM EDT
aghhh NO

what world do you live in,HK isnt selling to the civilian market, this was clearly demonstrated with their upper that they had a fit over when they found out a few were in the civilian market

they could of sold the upper as its not a firearm and has no restrictions

their is no intrest, they have enough contracts from governments that they dont need to worry about individual purchases and distributers,

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:38:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By wreckdiver:
Thanks for the report. It's nice to know that FN didn't cave to political pressure and followed up with a promise. Wish HK would do the same.



What are you talking about? When HK completes the factory, you will see them. They can't sell weapons made out of the country in the states, so right now its all a moot point.


HK is building a factory in the States??? Do they plan on selling to civilians??
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:02:11 AM EDT
Even SBR'd that is one damn ugly gun yuck!

Now if we could get it in full auto it would be a fun little toy. Would be fun to pump 50 quick rounds into a target as a smg, but semi auto with that thing looks too gay.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:14:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 11:17:34 AM EDT by FlyingFive0]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
For those that want the 5.7 round with a 50rd mag in an AR platform have another option (which is also much cheaper).


C4

www.GRTactical.com



www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/57proto3.jpg

Grant, what is that picture of? I have never seen that. Nevermind, found it .www.rhinelandarms.com/
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:17:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Doesn't the 5.7mm round still suffer from an
anemic performance when compared to the 5.56?
Woudn't this preclude the P90's selection as a
shoulder fired weapon in a deadly force situation?
No trying to be a smartass, I would really like to know.



That is true but the 5.7 was never meant to be compared to the 5.56. It was meant to be compared to a 9mm. I don't have a PS90 as of yet but I do own a FN Five Seven, and I must say that I love it. As for terminal ballistics on 2 legged targets I have no data, but, there are a lot of dead nutria here in southwest Louisiana who can give you some info Seriously though I do manage to get mostly one shot kills at varying distances on our big rats(anyone familiar with these critters can tell you that they are pretty tough) down here and hope to try it out on some hogs next year.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:49:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:23:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 12:32:20 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Did you happen to notice how the barrel is attached in the PS90? Does it require tools to be removed/installed?


The guts of this gun pulled out easy and from what I saw it looked like the barrel should be easy to pull off and replace with an SBR barrel. CMMG already posted in another forum that they are tooling up for SBR barrels built to FN specs and will have prototypes ready this month for testing. From my understanding the barrel can be changed to SBR with a new flash hider and barrel and that's it. Do not quote me, I am not a gun smith. Alos the muzzle device on the end of the PS90 is a flashhider, not a brake


Doesn't the 5.7mm round still suffer from an
anemic performance when compared to the 5.56?
Woudn't this preclude the P90's selection as a
shoulder fired weapon in a deadly force situation?
No trying to be a smartass, I would really like to know.



As for ballistics the SS197 is probably the best load you're going to get. It's a 40gr V-max protectile that is moving at 2200fps from the PS90 barrel; 2000fps from a P90 barrel. In ballistic gel the SS197 yaws and tumbles after 2" of penetration and provides dramatic, reliable fragmentation along 12" of penetration. That is a nasty piece of work and a huge improvement over the first generation of AP 5.7 bullets. This isnt my data, only what I've read. If it all holds true then I classify this weapon as a viable duty or defense tool easily. Plus you get 50 chances to get your point across. And it does this without the muzzle blast, flash and recoil of 5.56. But it is flawed to compare rifle loads to SMG/Pistol loads.

This is very exciting for gun buyers and enthusiasts, and significant enough to deserve more consideration than "I'm a douche and an AR15 fanboy and my colt is better". FN selling the P90 to civilians is a huge step forward for gun rights and gun owners, which will lead to the FS2000 and amazing SCAR. This could make SIG rethink their policy, as well as HK, and Giat. I'm not saying I would trade my AR15's for a PS90, I just see it's very presence as being important. I would on the other hand sell everything but my RRA for a SG551
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:41:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CK1:
Flash hider and detachable magazine. Two evil features, should be okay in the banned states except CA which only allows one. Would need compliant magazines.



Thanks CK1. That was my read too, but ya never know with this stuff--and the AWB States don't make it easy!

I guess the key question is if you can get 10 round magazines? Anyone know?

Thanks.

Will
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:09:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
What's up with the new avatar?



You don't like it?

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:13:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 2:14:45 PM EDT by mark5pt56]

I guess the key question is if you can get 10 round magazines? Anyone know?


FN will make these available at a later date, once they get caught up with the initial rush.

People have to get the PS90's yet-in volume

If you are good with plastics, I'm sure you can add a block to the base section?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:32:13 PM EDT
Rhineland Arm's AR upper makes me hard. I can't wait to move outta this state to FREEDOM!!!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 3:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By dport:
What's up with the new avatar?



You don't like it?



Didn't say that, just different.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:09:25 PM EDT
Any advantage the P90 offers is lost on the PS90. The P90 is extremely compact, lightweight and capable of armor penetration and hundred meter effectivenss. I am not sold on the terminal ballistics of the 5.7 cartridge. While its certainly an improvement over a 9mm SMG using FMJ bullets, especially against an opponent using body armor, however it can't hold a candle to a 5.56 carbine shooting 75grn TAP. The PS90 offers nothing over a 5.56 carbine, except obscure styling.
I got reamed for this by a few people who likely have never handled eiether, but I lean towards the MP7....For me, its just a better platform and while literature suggests the 5.7 FN round to be more "lethal", in reality, they are probably very similar. My first experience with the P90 and

corresponding ammo was with Sioux Falls SWAT, who were very early supporters of the weapon.
For subgun missions, its an improvement....at least as a military weapon. If opposing unarmored suspects, I can't see the point...except for extremely rapid cyclic rate and corresponding high magazine capacity. It is a light weight, compact weapon with rifle like penetraion and acceptible lethality. A 5.56 carbine or SBR is always a better choice, and I can't see the practicality of owning a PS90. I guess if you like the P90, it does nothing for me, than buy one.
But practicality/necessity is usually the first step in justifying a purchase such as this....I will be buying a FN2000, if for nothing else to support FN's effort and to hopefully inspire others to file suit. Not to mention, its an amazing weapon....especially with the electro/optical sight.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:20:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 4:20:40 PM EDT by Spooge5150]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By dport:
What's up with the new avatar?



You don't like it?




I have to admit. I having separation anxiety.

And NO I'm not joking.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:21:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By dport:
What's up with the new avatar?



You don't like it?




I have to admit. I having separation anxiety.

And NO I'm not joking.



Thats so funny.

If it bothers you so much I can change it back.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 11:59:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
For those that want the 5.7 round with a 50rd mag in an AR platform have another option (which is also much cheaper).


C4

www.GRTactical.com



www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/57proto3.jpg



Grant,

I see the expected price should be about $550 or so, according to RA's site. Now what does that include? Is that a complete upper? 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:40:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:56:51 AM EDT
variablebinary

can you elaborate on the "where the bullets drop from" reference?

I haven't seen one first hand, but from photos of them in action, the short stock seems to force a cramped set up.

Did you find this awkward?

and how about the "field strip"? easy? Does it run pretty clean, or no?

TIA
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:31:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
It reminds me of that SciFi show "Star Gate SG1".

They use P90s a lot on Stargate. That's where most people have seen 'em-and gotten the urge to get one!



Theyre swithcing to G36K's this season.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:51:24 AM EDT
If I had won the lottery over the weekend, I would most certainly be ordering a PS90 and starting the paperwork to SBR it. Oh yes.

For what it was designed, the P90 (and an equivalent-barreled PS90) should be outstanding; pistol handiness with SMG performance. It's not supposed to be a carbine replacement. In the U.S. military we've gone completely away from SMGs in general purpose roles (probably because of the flexibility of the AR platform...) but that does not mean that it is irrelevant. A lightweight, handy and effective gun like the P90 is indeed relevant in the personal protection role at the very least, and the P90 is significantly handier than an M4 and more lethal than an M9 pistol. As a civilian shooter, the platform intrigues me, and if I had the cash right now, I'd be working on getting some hands-on experience with it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:56:09 AM EDT
All I want to know is when are these going to be available!

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:03:53 AM EDT
C4, when do you expect the RA 57s?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:19:28 AM EDT
This is a great step- FN selling the PS90 to civilians. With FN being a military weapons supplier to be civilian weapons friendly then perhaps the likes of HK, Colt, and SIG will realize the same. I wish I had the money because I've held the real P90 and they are very nice little weapon systems.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:33:13 AM EDT
A neighboring PD's SWAT team is dumping the P90 in favor of the commando. Ammo just too expensive, and accessories way up there. We're dumping our MP-5s for commandos also. It's just a very versatile platform, it works well, and ammo is dirt cheap.

That said, the P90 looks cool. I'll never buy the civi version, cause the ammo expense.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:01:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:17:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
variablebinary

can you elaborate on the "where the bullets drop from" reference?

I haven't seen one first hand, but from photos of them in action, the short stock seems to force a cramped set up.

Did you find this awkward?

and how about the "field strip"? easy? Does it run pretty clean, or no?

TIA



It drops cases from the bottom of the gun. I found that to be a really nice feature.

The Stock is short yes, and without the aimpoint it was a pain after awhle, but with the aimpoint the PS90 was very comfortable and was on target very fast. Overall it is much easier to handle with the aimpoint mounted

To field strip you press down on a large button and the action comes out. It has dual recoil springs. Cleaning was a breeze, a quick wipe down and lube and that's it. The internals have generous size, and there are no small areas that are a pain to get to. 5 minutes for a complete cleaning at most. But honestly, after looking at it, it almost appears that it cant jam. I think everyone needs to play with it first had to really understand what I mean

This much I will say, you never realize how old the AR15 platform is until playing with something as modern as the PS90

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:48:16 AM EDT
I've heard that it is rather weak ballistically. It goes fast, but doesn't hit as hard. Almost to fast, as such it presents an overpenetration concern.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:55:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I've heard that it is rather weak ballistically. It goes fast, but doesn't hit as hard. Almost to fast, as such it presents an overpenetration concern.



Not that I am a fan of the 5.7 bullet, but the SS197 has some merit, as far as that caliber goes

40grs moving at 2000fps and providing fragmentation along 12" of penetration, if this is true, is very similar to M193.


Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:12:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I've heard that it is rather weak ballistically. It goes fast, but doesn't hit as hard. Almost to fast, as such it presents an overpenetration concern.


Hmm every bit of data I've seen is more concerned about underpenetration, not over penetration.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:22:02 PM EDT
There is a FN P-90 sales vid on this web page, just dp a search for videos and it'll show up on the second page or so. Really interesting video, covers the weapon and the ss109 fmj. Even has a guy unloading 2 P-90s simultaneously.

www.defensereview.com
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:00:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I've heard that it is rather weak ballistically. It goes fast, but doesn't hit as hard. Almost to fast, as such it presents an overpenetration concern.


Hmm every bit of data I've seen is more concerned about underpenetration, not over penetration.



This is my understanding as well
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:36:28 PM EDT
Would the PS90/P90 make a good HD weapon? In the area that I live in I am concerned about overpenetration and a bullet landing in my neighbors bedroom so I have ruled out a AR15 as a HD weapon.

The 5.7 intrigues me as I have heard that it disintegrates after exiting flesh when it hits a wall. Is this true?
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