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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:48:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 10:53:35 AM EST by lu380]
Let's say I have a post ban receiver now and the AWB sunsets 9/13. On 9/14 I assemble the lower as a complete rifle with flash hider/collapsible stock/bayo log. On 9/15 a new AWB is passed that exactly mirrors the old ban, with a grandfather clause. How would one go about providing ABSOLUTE PROOF that that rifle was assembled as a complete firearm on 9/14? Taking a picture next to 9/14s' newspaper would not work, so don't even suggest that! Please forum administrators- sticky this if anybody comes up with the answer.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:19:40 AM EST
Keep all of your sales slips, also take a picture of it on the 15th,
print it out and have it notarized on the 15th.

~ s0ulzer0
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:20:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 11:22:14 AM EST by Tyrod]
Notarized Picture?

edit: I guess we were thinking the same thing.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:22:07 AM EST
Uh, what is the point of this?

On September 14, the AWB will die a due death and it won't matter.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:29:21 AM EST
It's very unlikely a new ban will be passed THIS YEAR, much less in September.
But as we've all seen, anything could happen.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:36:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:43:39 AM EST
It's just a worst-case hypothetical situation I painted up to explain my question clearly. Maybe a new ban would go in effect five years later- but the circumstances would be identical. There would be no documentation of the rifle being assembled with "evil" features before the date of the new ban if you assembled it as such yourself. I'm not so sure if the notary thing would be rock solid either, but I could be wrong. There is a similar topic over in rifles, barrels, lowers, but it does not reach a satisfactory conclusion. Just a couple of guys going back and forth calling each other stupid.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 11:44:47 AM EST
I wouldn't worry about it even if everything did happen that way. The gov/prosecuter would have to prove the rifle is illegal, you don't have to prove anything. At least that is how it is supposed to work!

Or, maybe you could get a cop to inspect it and give you some sort of signed letter.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:34:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
I wouldn't worry about it even if everything did happen that way. The gov/prosecuter would have to prove the rifle is illegal, you don't have to prove anything. At least that is how it is supposed to work!

Or, maybe you could get a cop to inspect it and give you some sort of signed letter.



Ask a cop to inspect it, most cops dont know what the AWB is let alone determing a "pre-ban"
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 12:34:59 PM EST
I've actually thought about this and decided if it were an issue (it isn't in my mind.....at least for now) I would pay a notary public to watch me build my "evil" rifle and then notarize a letter to the effect that the rifle was built on 09/14/04 with the following features.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:04:55 PM EST
I just plan on keeping receipts...and using credit cards. That will be proof that a spent the amount of money to buy the necessary parts at the given time. Beyond that, screw it. I'm not going to get any more paranoid than this stupid law has already made all of us.

Kevin
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 1:31:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By lu380:
It's just a worst-case hypothetical situation I painted up to explain my question clearly. Maybe a new ban would go in effect five years later- but the circumstances would be identical.



Since you defined the hypthetical future as very similar to the past, wouldn't looking at what happened last time be the smart thing to do?

If the receiver had been shipped from the manufacturer, so that it was in private hands prior to the passage of the ban, it is assumed that it was assembled as a pre-ban assault weapon. It may or may not have been, but the BATF has no way of proving it was not, and given that the onus is on them to prove their case, they didn't even try.

In your "what if?" scenario, the ATF would no doubt work under the assumption that every AR-15 receiver was assembled with multiple evil features, in all states that allow it, at one second after midnight, Sept. 14, 2004. They have no way to prove otherwise. So the new AWB, passed 24 hours later, would have to include all those receivers as Pre-Ban II. You do not need to have absolute proof of anything.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:11:14 PM EST
So I bought my rifle as a complete “post-ban” rifle from Bushmaster. If the ban expires and a new one is later reinstated, will my post-ban be technically a pre-ban even if it never saw any of the banned features? Or would I have to buy a complete rifle with the formerly banned features during the time between the old and new ban?
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:32:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:41:25 PM EST
Okay then... Same question but if the new ban had a grandfather clause? Would my rifle be a pre ban? It's just a little confusing for me.hinking.gif
thanks.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:45:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 4:47:29 PM EST by CavVet]
.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 4:46:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 4:48:16 PM EST by CavVet]

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
I wouldn't worry about it even if everything did happen that way. The gov/prosecuter would have to prove the rifle is illegal, you don't have to prove anything. At least that is how it is supposed to work!



I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you wasted your first post on a a non-truth.

This horse has been beaten into shredded beef.

IAW the current AWB all they have to prove is you were in possession of an AW (features). You have to prove it fits the exemption, which is a (watch this upcoming word here-->) "grandfatherable date", LEO/ .mil.


Link Posted: 5/5/2004 5:43:29 PM EST
Really? That sucks. So "innocent till proven guilty" doesnt' apply? Anyway, I won't beat it anymore. Well, not the horse! Let's just hope it goes away.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 8:17:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 8:24:04 PM EST by ChickenWing]
How bout this? Take some photographs including the serial number, and seal it in an envelope, then mail it to yourself on the 14th. Do not ever open it, until you need to in court. The postmark will prove that it was in existence before the 15th. Just a stab, but I saw something similar on the peoples court once.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 6:58:01 AM EST
BINGO! Chickenwing has the right answer!!! I read that before but I totally forgot about it until now. Aint' no thang but a chicken wang!
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:12:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
I wouldn't worry about it even if everything did happen that way. The gov/prosecuter would have to prove the rifle is illegal, you don't have to prove anything. At least that is how it is supposed to work!



I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you wasted your first post on a a non-truth.

This horse has been beaten into shredded beef.

IAW the current AWB all they have to prove is you were in possession of an AW (features). You have to prove it fits the exemption, which is a (watch this upcoming word here-->) "grandfatherable date", LEO/ .mil.


I don't think this is clear in the law, but arguably the fact that your rifle is a preban an affirmative defense, which you must prove by a preponderance of the evidence. They would still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you actually had the weapon and that it had the right number of evil features.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:36:17 AM EST
So, given the current AWB, if I had a lower manufactured before 9/14/94 and I personally built a rifle with AW features before that same date and I never sold it, then I'm screwed because there is no way to prove the manufactured date.

The most interesting thing I've noted about this whole discussion is that essentially our Constitution has become an anachronism.

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