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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/18/2004 6:40:21 PM EST
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:46:54 PM EST
What else would I spend my money on though? Bills? I own a Harley also so I am used to paying an arm and a leg for shit...
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:47:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:57:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 7:00:45 PM EST by RAMBOSKY]
Gucci gear. Some of the bases are pricy but rock solid in design and function. They are not massed produced in China but made here in smaller dedicated machine shops.

I don't think I'd want to go to Iraq with Leepers scope rings for $19.99. Look at a set of Leupold MK 4 scope rings. Over a hundred dollars a pop. Bagger Ordance rings, over a hundred dollars a pop.

What scope bases do you buy? A hunter friend of mine said the same thing a while back on some of my accessories but when I saw his scope and rings for his rifle I understood better. He had a Simons scope w/rings in one package he got a Wally World for $29.99.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:07:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
He had a Simons scope w/rings in one package he got a Wally World for $29.99.



Thats what I use to hunt with... I have an Aimpoint QRP on my M4 though...
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:26:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By DM1975:

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
He had a Simons scope w/rings in one package he got a Wally World for $29.99.



Thats what I use to hunt with... I have an Aimpoint QRP on my M4 though...



Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:44:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 7:44:45 PM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:07:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?




So.....buy a mini-mill, some tools, some aluminum, and make your own. Of course, by the time you buy all that, and spend a lot of your time figuring out what you're doing, and possibly screwing up the tools, and making a few pieces of scrap aluminum before making something useable....well, you probably won't come out ahead again.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:14:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?


Economics 101: Supply and demand
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:43:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?




So.....buy a mini-mill, some tools, some aluminum, and make your own. Of course, by the time you buy all that, and spend a lot of your time figuring out what you're doing, and possibly screwing up the tools, and making a few pieces of scrap aluminum before making something useable....well, you probably won't come out ahead again.

Somebody always says this and it's besides the point. It doesn't cost squat to turn these things out in volume from a machine shop set up to do just this. Machining them off a jig doesn't take much, then off to the anodizer.

My Dad has scope bases he paid less than $20 for and they're rock solid season to season. The problem is the few folks that turn these out want a small fortune.

I think the difference is AR fanatics will spend anything on the latest gizmo to hang off their rifle whether practical or not. To a degree, I'm just too practical for cool points.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:01:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
There is a certain quality required to meet the mission. So say there are scope rings that run $10 to $200. The $10 are 90% effective, the $20 ones are 99% effective, the $40 ones are 99.9% ... so until everything else in the entire chain is at least 99.9% effective you're wasting your money extending the rings rather than the ammo, the scope, and the shooter.



So your suggesting we all buy our optics and rings from Wal-Mart? Some of us would rather buy right the first time.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:10:09 PM EST
Va_Dinger,

Sounds like either Wally World, China or make our own. Not much of a choice but I guess for some it's the cheap way to go.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 10:27:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
Va_Dinger,

Sounds like either Wally World, China or make our own. Not much of a choice but I guess for some it's the cheap way to go.



Sad, but true.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 10:57:13 PM EST
Seen how much a CNC mill cost lately?
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:16:35 AM EST
Made in U.S.A.:

Shop rate: $80/hr.
Machinist: $20/hr (English-speakin, born in USA, Good Ol' Boy)

$100.00 Mounts.

CHINA:

$1.00 hr-

Do the math!

Then, buy AMERICAN!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:31:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 12:43:04 AM EST by gs430]
Look into: www.tacticalprecision.com

I don't have any personal experience with these but I remember reading awhile back on ARF that someone tried these and liked them...

The company is called Tactical Precision Systems(TPS) and they make two lines of rings...one is the TSR which is the "tactical" style rings (big and bulky) and then there's the HRT line which is a little slimmer (more like "hunting" style rings...

Prices range from $65 to $87 and they makes rings in Aluminum (7075), Steel, Stainless Steel and some in Titanium....rings seem like they're pretty nice...if I didn't already have two sets of Badgers, a set of T2's (Entreprise I believe) and a set of U.S. Optics rings, I wouldn't mind trying out a set of these...

I guess I need more rifles to put more scopes on...
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:33:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 12:35:24 AM EST by Not_A_Llama]
I'll buy when I think I'm getting a good value, not to be patriotic. That's retarded and hurts the free market that we stand for in our CAPITALIST society.

If I buy American, so much the better, but I'm not looking for it.

I refuse to pay $100 for scope rings, unless they're made of solid gold. That's rape, and I hate it just as much coming from "our boys".
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:44:12 AM EST
It's a free country and we are free to buy whatever scope mounts, rings, bases or whatever we wish. I will continue to buy high quality gear because that is what I want on a weapon designed for use and abuse under rough circumstances if necessary.

Just because a cheap knock-off copy of a Spyderco can be bought for less than $5 and will peel an apple just fine, does NOT mean that it will stand up to any sort of hard use...put some strain on the lock or try and pry a little with the blade and watch that POS break! What may do just fine on a deer rifle used a few times a year and carried in a padded case, etc. or a rifle fired mostly from the bench, is not necessarily going to hold up in more severe conditions. Granted, most of us here do not carry these rifles daily bouncing around in the back of duce and a halves or the sands of Iraq, etc. and neither do I...but I am willing to spend the money necessary to make sure my "go to" rifles can get the job done should things go to shit in a hurry...and that is not the crap sold at WalMart nor is it the kind of junk made in China.

Price some high quality gear manufactured overseas...such as the Brugger-Thomet mounts, etc. and you will see that the level of demand from the non-military customer actually allows high quality gear to be sold much cheaper here than in most other places. Those $100 scope rings? They would be about $200+ without the level of sales here in the US!

But to each his own.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:58:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 4:00:07 AM EST by M4-TUNA]
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 4:59:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
I'll buy when I think I'm getting a good value, not to be patriotic. That's retarded and hurts the free market that we stand for in our CAPITALIST society.

If I buy American, so much the better, but I'm not looking for it.

I refuse to pay $100 for scope rings, unless they're made of solid gold. That's rape, and I hate it just as much coming from "our boys".



There's a reason why that stuff is expensive. It costs money to make accurate, DURABLE gear. Your Wal-Mart aluminum rings will not survive a fall to the ground on your scope...and come to think of it, neither will your Leapers scope. Leupold MK4 rings and bases are $200+ for a reason - they're STEEL, not some chinese aluminum pot metal.

As I've said in other threads this week, if you're happy with what you have, good for you. Some of us have higher standards and are willing to pay for what we want. If you can't tell the difference between a Simmons scope and a Leupold Mark 4, then I'd guess you don' t need to spend the money.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 5:45:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 5:46:28 AM EST by ipschoser1]

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Leupold MK4 rings and bases are $200+ for a reason - they're STEEL, not some chinese aluminum pot metal.

A



Wait a minute there, my rifle is aluminum.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 7:43:02 AM EST
Ahhhh... scope mounts and bases have been a particular bane of the industry for years... Firearms manufacturers crank out rifles with no (or very little) consideration of how you will put a scope on it, in fact they probably do not even care if you put a scope on it or not.

Meanwhile, optics companies crank out glass with no thought at all of how you will put it on a rifle... there is no consortium or standard. The odd thing is that the AR15 world is one of the best for working together to get optics of some sort on your rifle and the rifle provides the most options for mounting, evidenced in the yards of ridiculous picrail hanging all over the guns.

So, you have the traditional problem in that, for a guy to offer a good optics mount solution for a particular package, he must have on hand the weapon and optics intended to use. You must research the package and ensure it works well for nearly all shooters and that it is durable and does not get in the way of other needed accys.

This development cost has to be absorbed in the initial production run... it is safe to assume that when you see the cost of said new doo-dad, it has went through a formula that is something very close to this: (Actual production cost per item X 5) + development cost amortized over a period of time or percentage of the market.

This is a niche market and as you can see, it may be the development of a mount for only one optic on one particular rifle, for one particular use...

So, here you have the classic $20.00 scope rings that cost $100.00, also have to figure distributors and dealers getting a chunk...

Now, as soon as you get your new idea to market, someone will take it and copy it... they have no development cost and often will farm the work out to an off shore facility -- At times, you will get a very good quality copy for far less than the original... of course even these knock-offs will have an inflated prices, because we American buyers, will not trust something that costs far less than what we think it should cost. Or (this really sucks), you will not have a water tight contract with the shop that makes you part and they will turn around and sell it to other people for the same cost they are selling to you...

Naturally, there is supply and demand... Simply put, most people paid too much for all the goodies on their rifle, but cost is what the market will bear -- and customer satisfaction often gives little consideration to cost -- we have been taught this from every commercial we have ever seen, "isn't it worth a little extra, to know you have the best?"

Just to have a little fun... take some accsy, let's say a aimpoint mount and hop on your favorite CAD program and reverse engineer it. Then take the drawings to a local machine shop or even an online shop and see what production costs are -- This is how a lot of guys get a preproduction estimate, they RE something very close to what they want to make and then get estimates on the design... to actually commission the production would take no ethics or morals and most likely put you in violation of protection acts.

The estimate will give you a good idea of the cost per estimated sales numbers... let's say that you dupe aimpoint mount costs $250.00 to make one, you will see that the cost of 2 will be around $130.00, 10 will be $35.00 (or so) each... this starts to slow down, until you reach the point break, lets say somewhere around 30 items and a cost of $11.50 a piece -- then you set your wholesale price at $59.00 with a srp or $90.00 and a resale low limit of $79.00.

At first, it seems that you are making nearly fiddie bucks a piece on these, but you have to include packaging, overhead and insurance... so your gain of each mount gets down to say $40.00, then you have to recover your development costs -- many do not realize how expensive this can be, if you had to have a fixture or jig made (or goodness forbid a injection mold), you can have tens-of-thousands of dollars to recoup, give half your profit back to filling that kitty...

These are some of the common reasons why these things cost so much... but do not forget good old greed, the industry is rife with those who are here to either make a quick buck or further pad the small fortunes they have already made...
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:05:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:08:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?




Costs?


By that do you meen the $1000 CNC machines? Or the lights? Building rental? Employee costs? Warehouse cost? Office/paperwork costs? R&D costs? Material costs? Taxes? OSHA?

Which costs of those are you talking about?


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:10:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By lonewolf223:
Made in U.S.A.:

Shop rate: $80/hr.
Machinist: $20/hr (English-speakin, born in USA, Good Ol' Boy)

$100.00 Mounts.

CHINA:

$1.00 hr-

Do the math!

Then, buy AMERICAN!!



Damn...that is the WORST example to buy american I have ever seen.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:13:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 8:16:03 AM EST by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?




Costs?


By that do you meen the $1000 CNC machines?


SGatr15



Tell me where to get a $1000 CNC Machine!!!! I am all over that... or do you mean the monthly lease payment... even at that, a grand aint bad -- try a 100K to a quarter mil to get a few of nice machines on the floor...
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:28:01 AM EST
Well said Paul and Gunzilla.

+1 apiece

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:52:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
try a 100K to a quarter mil to get a few of nice machines on the floor...




I was just going to say exactly the same thing...
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:28:11 PM EST
don't spend the $$$ on the expensive items. go buy what you want to buy. don't listen to anyone else on here. buy the walmert rings. buy the $30 leuphold rings at gander mountain. whatever.

they sound like the tacpoint guys.

if you want to go the cheaper route, go ahead and enjoy. go ahead and feel free to post nothing but rave reviews. but don't come in asking why the expensive ones are expensive.

Link Posted: 9/19/2004 12:39:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigkracka:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
I'm new to AR's and can't beleive the price of some AR acc's. Scope mounts for instance. About a hundred a throw? Come on folks, how much do these things cost to make?




So.....buy a mini-mill, some tools, some aluminum, and make your own. Of course, by the time you buy all that, and spend a lot of your time figuring out what you're doing, and possibly screwing up the tools, and making a few pieces of scrap aluminum before making something useable....well, you probably won't come out ahead again.

Somebody always says this and it's besides the point. It doesn't cost squat to turn these things out in volume from a machine shop set up to do just this. Machining them off a jig doesn't take much, then off to the anodizer.

My Dad has scope bases he paid less than $20 for and they're rock solid season to season. The problem is the few folks that turn these out want a small fortune.

I think the difference is AR fanatics will spend anything on the latest gizmo to hang off their rifle whether practical or not. To a degree, I'm just too practical for cool points.



And you're right...

Look at the Farrel base for the Savage 10FP... $30 or so for a scope base that works quite well, thank you...

One of those, a Simmons scope, and Burris rings from the local sporting goods store -> a rifle that can shoot MOA with crappy surplus ammo...
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 1:39:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
Tell me where to get a $1000 CNC Machine!!!! I am all over that... or do you mean the monthly lease payment... even at that, a grand aint bad -- try a 100K to a quarter mil to get a few of nice machines on the floor...




I meant $1000's


SGtar15
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 2:15:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 2:16:43 PM EST by Va_Dinger]
Edit - not worth my time.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 2:19:58 PM EST
this argument can be settled with lots of beer, goggles and paintball guns at 20 paces
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 6:09:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By twonami:
this argument can be settled with lots of beer, goggles and paintball guns at 20 paces



or airsoft?
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 6:13:12 PM EST
I was gonna say airsoft but paintballs on bare skin hurts more plus it's easier to see the "wounds" from paintballs
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 7:13:52 PM EST
paintball wounds-- back in 1993? i had started playing paintball around my area (actually no paintball around my area- had to drive 2 hours). we were playing one saturday and some jagoff decided that he'd shoot me in the neck from 15 feet while i was trying to show him the shattered ball i hit him with on his boot. i remember having to go bus tables at the restaurant that saturday night. the 'wound' from that paintball sure got me a lot of looks from the gray-haired clientelle. It looked like I'd been practicing making out with a 19 hp shop-vac earlier that day. The pieces of the shell of the RP Scherer ball had actually cut into my skin around the areas that the paint seemed to inject itself into my skin sorta like the way that those airguns inject the flu shots in your arm!!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 7:18:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 7:19:27 PM EST by twonami]

Originally Posted By JosephR:
paintball wounds-- back in 1993? i had started playing paintball around my area (actually no paintball around my area- had to drive 2 hours). we were playing one saturday and some jagoff decided that he'd shoot me in the neck from 15 feet while i was trying to show him the shattered ball i hit him with on his boot. i remember having to go bus tables at the restaurant that saturday night. the 'wound' from that paintball sure got me a lot of looks from the gray-haired clientelle. It looked like I'd been practicing making out with a 19 hp shop-vac earlier that day. The pieces of the shell of the RP Scherer ball had actually cut into my skin around the areas that the paint seemed to inject itself into my skin sorta like the way that those airguns inject the flu shots in your arm!!!


ow!
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:56:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:51:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 7:55:37 PM EST by markmcjunkins]
If you're goig for cans or squirrels, $29.00 at Wal-Mart.
If you're going for deer, $39.00 mounts from Gander Mountian will do fine.
If you're going for fucks that shoot back, I would want some good stuff that goes together right and will stay where I set the it up.
not that I've ever done any of the above.
mark mcj
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