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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/25/2005 2:09:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 6:28:56 AM EDT by Curare]
As shooting enthusiasts, we know one gun is good, and more is better. However, people who seem to take self defense seriously have a quiver of ARs for a variety of situations. The seem to think that they can just grab their CQB AR when the situation dictates, as if their self defense use is akin to a SWAT team loading up to serve a warrant. If they need to defend their position at night, they can just grab their long range NVO AR. By this approach you have a rack full of spectacular ARs that are poor in alternative roles. In reality, you may only be able to grab one rifle and go.

The other option is the all-around AR. This reasonably light rifle would be optimized for 200yd. and closer engagements, compact enough for CQB work yet capable of making shots past 200yds without difficulty. A 16" free-floated midlength, midweight barrel with a 1-4x optic like the Short Dot would be perfect in this role. If you want more ARs for serious use you could duplicate this flexible set-up and keep it as a spare, or in a different location.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:11:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 2:13:52 PM EDT by Stickman]
I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I also think you are making some large assumptions.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:14:40 PM EDT
Redundancy is the key to preparedness! I am currently working on a backup AR set up exactly as my primary all-purpose AR. (16" LMT/CMT).

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:34:31 PM EDT
You can only shoot one at a time anyway...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 2:53:22 PM EDT
I feel that in whatever situation, no matter what configuration you have...It will ALWAYS come down to how well YOU perform, and not so much how your equipment performs.

I really feel that it would all happen so fast that you would not have time to even grab a better suited weapon.

Having more is always great, but you can only fire one at a time. You'll likely be dead if you take the time to drop one to grab another.

The GOOD thing about having many, is that you can arm your roommates, family members, close neighbor, ect. in advance, if you know the situation is already going to shit.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
The GOOD thing about having many, is that you can arm your roommates, family members, close neighbor, ect. in advance, if you know the situation is already going to shit.



+1
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:08:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 3:09:09 PM EDT by Gmountain]
I think that people that take self defense seriously have a "quiver" of firearms, of which the AR is merely one component. I think the AR excels at what it is intended to do, a medium range light anti-personnel rifle. In some instances a pistol is what you need, in some instances you need a heavier weapon, such as a 30-06, or an extremely quiet firearm, such as a .22.

In a doomsday scenario you will also need rifles intended for taking game, such as a .270 or in my case a 7-08.

Multiple firearms are good, as others have said, if you need to "assist" others inself defense.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:14:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:14:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 1:16:50 PM EDT by DevL]
I thnk an 11.5" barrel is a better all around barrel for self defense than 16" by a wide margin. An 11.5" is long enough for 99.9% of civilian self defense needs where a 16" cut be used well in extremly tight confines or in automobiles very well. To me a 16" AR is a dedicated long range rifle with some ability for close range use. I only want 2 ARs, an 11.5" 5.56 and 16" 7.62 for my uses.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:56:05 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:01:06 PM EDT
ok.....

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:08:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FL-AR15:

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
The GOOD thing about having many, is that you can arm your roommates, family members, close neighbor, ect. in advance, if you know the situation is already going to shit.



+1



+1 more
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 6:21:33 PM EDT by CAAAwarfighter]
What If not it's SHTF and and a case of home defense? Suppose you have to use your AR to defend yourself and it's confiscated for evidence. I think it would be nice to have another AR set up pretty much the same in case the Home invader you shot has had some buddies who come looking for you. That is if that there that dumb.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:06:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 9divdoc:

Originally Posted By FL-AR15:

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
The GOOD thing about having many, is that you can arm your roommates, family members, close neighbor, ect. in advance, if you know the situation is already going to shit.



+1



+1 more



I just armed my dad with a nice Colt Sporter 2 Carbine last month!!!

Damn....I miss that gun!

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:09:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
You can only shoot one at a time anyway...



I got two hands and two hips. Isn't that how you're supposed to use AR15s.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:02:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 8:03:37 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
The GOOD thing about having many, is that you can arm your roommates, family members, close neighbor, ect. in advance, if you know the situation is already going to shit.




Hope they are all trained and proficient in the use of the AR, otherwise you might be better served by giving them a sharpened stick.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:36:39 PM EDT
Too much thought goes into this perfect rifle. Just pick one. You don't need your family and kids following behind you with a wheelbarrow full of rifles for each job. While your getting shot at and searching for which "tool" to use.

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer. Not everyone can afford the night vision gadgets. So you guys are ahead of most but not as much as you may think. For SHTF you need a simple defensive weapon. Your not going to be sitting 500 yards away at night picking off people as they loot your house. Have back up weapons that can fill the general purpose role if you loose your primary or need to arm family etc...Also have parts available. If you have to bug out it's going to be only what you can carry with you. It may be by vehicle or it may have to be on foot. I think after awhile having a large caliber designated hunting weapon will turn into a bad idea after you quickly expend all your ammo. I believe trapping would be a more viable option to keep meat in the diet. A .22lr may be the best decision as well. Unless you have alot of people to feed the large game will go to waste. It would be better to shoot small game or shoot large game at close range with the .22lr. You can also carry thousands of more rounds.

I have fired a 20 inch M-16 A2 from vehicles and it's not that big of a deal like everyone precieves. I never had a problem with it. Nobody ever complained until they started seeing the M-4s. Anyways your not likely to hit much while driving down the road and when you stop you arn't going to stay in the vehicle and shoot. Your gonna get out, take cover and have better mobility.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:52:52 PM EDT
I have found the 20 inch AR to be a HUGE impediment inside the confines of a HMMWV, let alone smaller vehicles. For the operator to have the weapon "at ready" in a truck/SUV for example, will require you to drive with the window down and the muzzle hanging out the window, which won't work in a crowd, underbrush or cold....Another option that I use is the dash, however by the time you reach for it....it could be too late. With a passenger, armed with a rifle space is even less. A telescopic stock is a good solution, but a carbine is even better. A 16 inch carbine with a single point and the stock collapsed is an excellent weapon in a vehicle. I am able to shoot comfortably and effectively with the stock completely closed, however if you are bigger than I you can push out against the sling which will give you some stability....If you plan to flee in a vehicle, you need a carbine at your side. I wouldn't want to drive through CS/radiation/VX/SARS with my window down.
This just goes to show that the optimum, most versitle barrel length for a defensive AR is 16 inches....an excellent compromise.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:09:46 AM EDT
Curare, I understand your question, and it's a good one.

My approach is, I have a go-to 16in midlength midweight (that's for me), an 18inch Noveske SPR, and I'm building a 16in Lightweight. The Lightweight will go to my wife or my son; Whether I grab the 16in or 18in will depend on the scenario. I haven't yet worked out the criteria for deciding.

The upside of several ARs is choice and redundancy; the downside includes no money left for a generator, medical kit, food/water/fuel storage, and interestingly-- under high stress, will it take you an extra critical moment to decide which one to grab?

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:06:19 AM EDT
i have multiple ar's cause right now i can and am able to freely.

any weapon is better than none when it comes down to it regardless of config.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:53:03 AM EDT
Curare -

I think I know what you are trying to say and agree with some of your points. Here some random thoughts...

You must keep in mind the ARFCOM primarily a hobbyist site. There are some real "operators" here but most people here are just firearms enthusiasts. Many of them have the financial resources to feed their black rifle addiction. In order to justify (and plan for) the purchasing or building of another AR, they have come up with a purposed "role" for that AR to play. There is nothing wrong with having multiple ARs setup for specific roles, especially if the person has enough time and money to train and become proficient with each one.

Still, if you are serious about preparing for a SHTF situation and have a limited amount of money and training time (like 95% of normal people), then there is a lot merit in the one rifle concept. (Even better would be two rifles setup identically). An hour at the range or "x" amount of ammo will be better used for training purposes with the one and only rifle that you plan to grab when you really need it then by bouncing around between 2-3 different rifles.

As far as what configuration would be best for a "do it all" AR? Opinions will vary greatly and IMO, there is no way to setup an AR that will be perfect for every situation. There will always be compromises. Each person needs to evaluate their own situation and make decisions based off of that. If the configuration of a "do it all" AR is what you want to discuss, you may be better off starting a new thread specifically for that. In the end, I think you will find your time will be better spent training and preparing rather then worrying about the "ideal" setup.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:19:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 9:20:44 AM EDT by Curare]
Excellent discussion on one type of AR vs. many types for self defense!

As posted in the last sentence of my original post, I believe redundancy is important. That's not the issue.

This thread is about having one type of AR that can handle a variety of self defense situations well (with or without an exact spare), vs. several very different ARs that are highly specialized for self defense.

Which do you think is superior, and why? Are you into generalist or specialist ARs?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:47:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 10:21:05 AM EDT by Evilrp]
Is the question more geared for true "operators" or your joe blow covering his home ??
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:09:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAAAwarfighter:
I think it would be nice to have another AR set up pretty much the same in case the Home invader you shot has had some buddies who come looking for you. That is if that there that dumb.



Been there, it does happen, so add that to your "plan" of possible crap to come your way. We had a burglary in process in our garage and the Dayton (Ohio) PD showed up, caught the guy in the act, he came at the PO with a knife, who ended up shooting the guy in our back yard. Sure as shit, the next day his support group showed up. I/we didn't need to get a firearm involved with the follow on crew though, a good old fashioned severe ass beating in the alley fixed them real good.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:16:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer.



You are not on anyones "radar" more because you have an SBR or suppressor. Most people buy from an FFL and not an individual so they are on the "radar" whether its 16" or 10" of barrel they have. They dont even have paperwork to transport suppressors to other states.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:37:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 11:49:06 PM EDT by Xenogy]

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer.



You are not on anyones "radar" more because you have an SBR or suppressor. Most people buy from an FFL and not an individual so they are on the "radar" whether its 16" or 10" of barrel they have. They dont even have paperwork to transport suppressors to other states.



I had a conversation the other day at the gym with someone who works for the NSA. He mentioned that the government keeps tabs on all those who get hunting licenses, purchases from a dealer, or purchases NFA firearms etc...

He said those who have grandfathered, or private purchase firearms put themselves on the list when they apply for a hunting license.

Those with special weapons, FFLs, and CCW licenses will be the first to loose their guns when or if the day comes. When my C&R FFL expires, I don't think I will do a renewal. I think 2008 will be a big year for anti-gunners.

SBR's and silencers are registered. A 16" is not. The transaction is there but you could have said you sold it to John Smith a couple years ago and you don't have his info. You are not required to keep detailed transaction info like an FFL. On the other hand registered firearms clear your name after you sell them if they are transferable. If you don't sell them then they are still registered in your name. If you don't have it when they come knocking then you are still liable for it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:45:45 PM EDT
I'm a fan of the GP carbine, I'm ready to start working on a backuo that will be very similar to the one I have now.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:55:58 PM EDT
To think that the government doesn't keep track of who owns what and how many is ignorant.
Programs like Rex84 which was the mobilization and activation of American concentration camps to see how long it would take for FEMA to fill them up should martial law be imposed. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it was a REAL gov exercise approved by president Regan. The gov would want to know where all the privatly owned guns are so they can eliminate any potential threats should the need arise. Another point to consider is gun registration in other countries. Canada's gun

registration cost millions and was met with dissent and grief. It would be much better if you had the BATF keep track of all the "yellow" sheets when they are called in....you are crazy if you think they don't keep track of this stuff, especially in the information age. Owning a Class 3 weapon definatly puts you in the spotlight. If the gov cares about my .410 shotgun, they certainly care about your M203 and functional mortars. I don't consider myself paranoid, just realistic.

Especially in the days of the patriot act and post 911 America, the government is watching, reading and remembering......If we can abduct and torture foriegn nationals, I mean "render" and if we can wage a unilateral war, we can certainly keep track of privatly owned guns. As much as I would like C3 stuff, I just don't want to end up in a concentration camp just to have the barrel on my M4gery be a little shorter.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:29:54 AM EDT
What the fuck does "I ran into someone from the NSA in a locker room" have to do with this thread?
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:50:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dennysguns:
For real SHTF make sure you have good quality Night Vision, weapon capable and if you state allows it a silencer.

Denny



___

In a SHTF scenario...would the state care, anymore?



Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:21:26 PM EDT
The state wouldn't care AFTER the SHTF, but you'd have a hard time getting one BEFORE the SHTF.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:31:02 AM EDT
After all the pics I've seen of many different ARs perfectly set up for self defense by one person, you'd thnk that one of those people would advocate many types of ARs for SD here.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:39:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer.



You are not on anyones "radar" more because you have an SBR or suppressor. Most people buy from an FFL and not an individual so they are on the "radar" whether its 16" or 10" of barrel they have. They dont even have paperwork to transport suppressors to other states.



I had a conversation the other day at the gym with someone who works for the NSA. He mentioned that the government keeps tabs on all those who get hunting licenses, purchases from a dealer, or purchases NFA firearms etc...

He said those who have grandfathered, or private purchase firearms put themselves on the list when they apply for a hunting license.

Those with special weapons, FFLs, and CCW licenses will be the first to loose their guns when or if the day comes. When my C&R FFL expires, I don't think I will do a renewal. I think 2008 will be a big year for anti-gunners.

SBR's and silencers are registered. A 16" is not. The transaction is there but you could have said you sold it to John Smith a couple years ago and you don't have his info. You are not required to keep detailed transaction info like an FFL. On the other hand registered firearms clear your name after you sell them if they are transferable. If you don't sell them then they are still registered in your name. If you don't have it when they come knocking then you are still liable for it.



And if the givt was that fubar the FFL transfer would be enough to get a seach warrant... there would be no "I told em I sold it to Bubba at a gunshow." Of course this is all in your imagination as it wiill ot happen in our lifetime. Consider yourself paranoid. People like you convinced me not to get NFA items for a long time till I used my brain and saw through all the BS.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:09:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer.



You are not on anyones "radar" more because you have an SBR or suppressor. Most people buy from an FFL and not an individual so they are on the "radar" whether its 16" or 10" of barrel they have. They dont even have paperwork to transport suppressors to other states.



I had a conversation the other day at the gym with someone who works for the NSA. He mentioned that the government keeps tabs on all those who get hunting licenses, purchases from a dealer, or purchases NFA firearms etc...

He said those who have grandfathered, or private purchase firearms put themselves on the list when they apply for a hunting license.

Those with special weapons, FFLs, and CCW licenses will be the first to loose their guns when or if the day comes. When my C&R FFL expires, I don't think I will do a renewal. I think 2008 will be a big year for anti-gunners.

SBR's and silencers are registered. A 16" is not. The transaction is there but you could have said you sold it to John Smith a couple years ago and you don't have his info. You are not required to keep detailed transaction info like an FFL. On the other hand registered firearms clear your name after you sell them if they are transferable. If you don't sell them then they are still registered in your name. If you don't have it when they come knocking then you are still liable for it.



And if the givt was that fubar the FFL transfer would be enough to get a seach warrant... there would be no "I told em I sold it to Bubba at a gunshow." Of course this is all in your imagination as it wiill ot happen in our lifetime. Consider yourself paranoid. People like you convinced me not to get NFA items for a long time till I used my brain and saw through all the BS.





I agree, sounds like some people are paranoid. I keep one eye open for the conspiracy monster,and the other on my government. If anyone I think is extremely anti-gun get elected at my local, state or federal level, I will start oiling my weapons and store them away from my house. Of course, will have to keep a pistol stashed close by, but not giving my others away to Anti-Gun Jane.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:44:47 AM EDT
Thank heavens the gummint doesn't have the technology to be reading this thread! Otherwise, people talking about stashing weapons might be in for extra scrutiny.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:54:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Curare:
The other option is the all-around AR. This reasonably light rifle would be optimized for 200yd. and closer engagements, compact enough for CQB work yet capable of making shots past 200yds without difficulty.



Sounds like an SP1 or other M16A1 style AR
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Geohans:
Thank heavens the gummint doesn't have the technology to be reading this thread! Otherwise, people talking about stashing weapons might be in for extra scrutiny.



+ 87!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:53:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Not everyone wants to get on government radar by registering a SBR or silencer.



You are not on anyones "radar" more because you have an SBR or suppressor. Most people buy from an FFL and not an individual so they are on the "radar" whether its 16" or 10" of barrel they have. They dont even have paperwork to transport suppressors to other states.



I had a conversation the other day at the gym with someone who works for the NSA. He mentioned that the government keeps tabs on all those who get hunting licenses, purchases from a dealer, or purchases NFA firearms etc...

He said those who have grandfathered, or private purchase firearms put themselves on the list when they apply for a hunting license.

Those with special weapons, FFLs, and CCW licenses will be the first to loose their guns when or if the day comes. When my C&R FFL expires, I don't think I will do a renewal. I think 2008 will be a big year for anti-gunners.

SBR's and silencers are registered. A 16" is not. The transaction is there but you could have said you sold it to John Smith a couple years ago and you don't have his info. You are not required to keep detailed transaction info like an FFL. On the other hand registered firearms clear your name after you sell them if they are transferable. If you don't sell them then they are still registered in your name. If you don't have it when they come knocking then you are still liable for it.



And if the givt was that fubar the FFL transfer would be enough to get a seach warrant... there would be no "I told em I sold it to Bubba at a gunshow." Of course this is all in your imagination as it wiill ot happen in our lifetime. Consider yourself paranoid. People like you convinced me not to get NFA items for a long time till I used my brain and saw through all the BS.



Search warrant? Under the Patriot Act the government doesn't need a search warrant nor do you need to be present for the search. Some people plan for that. Won't happen in our lifetime? How do you know that? Thats cool that you have NFA items. So what your saying is the guy I know across town who owns a minigun , several hundred machine guns, silencers, two shooting ranges, several operable tanks, and a Jeep with two .50 cal's mounted on it is not any more likely to get the first visit from the govenment when/if guns are banned? Also anyone who thinks the government doesn't monitor ar15.com is stupid. It's probably at the top of the list. I never stated that I would do any particular action. I only mentioned what one could do or could not do.
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