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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/5/2006 5:26:54 PM EDT
I'm headed to a carbine class at the end of February and I need to buy two cases. I've got a new Colt 6920 (300 rounds of British SS109) I'm taking and I need to know which ammo would be the most likely to be reliable and fairly accurate in my rifle. I know, I should find out for myself, but before I go laying my limited funds out I'd like to get some opinions on the best deal for my needs. I will be shooting off 400 rounds of this ammo before the class FWIW. Opinions anyone?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:36:02 PM EDT
I've shot georgia arms canned heat with 100% reliability. They use once fired brass, mainly LC or some winchester stamps. 55 grain, supposedly loaded to 3150 fps. About $160/1k.

Good ammo, good price.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:38:29 PM EDT
Buy some XM855 from Ammoman.com. Shoots nice in my 6920. If you can't get it there, try to shoot any ammo with the "LC" head stamp. As a rule, it's very reliable. Ain't that 6920 one hell of aa carbine? Of many Colt's the 6920 is my favorite..
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:06:22 PM EDT
I have taken several tactical training classes over the last 15 years from several different trainers. Some were Military only classes, some were Law Enforcement only classes, and others were a mix of Military, Law Enforcement and civilian students.

During Tactical Pistol courses I have observed some students make drastic changes and switch to a new weapon platform either during or after the class. Other students make less dramatic changes, like change their sights or buy a different holster. For the most part pistols are fairly simple weapon systems, and the accessories are for the most part fairly simple.

After taking several Tactical Carbine courses that the Carbine is much more complex than the pistol, the accessories seem to be never ending, and many new shooters don't know where to start. From the classes that I have attended, I have observed that the M16 / AR15 / M4 carbine platform seems to be the weapon system that dominates these classes. What follows are some things that I have learned in the last 15 years that may help the new shooter with the M16 / AR15 / M4 carbine platform.

What you want to bring to a Tactical Carbine Course:


-USE QUALITY USA MADE AMMO, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo realted malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo, and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us. (XM193, Federal American Eagle, Winchester White Box, IMI if you can find it, etc.....as a general rule stay away from surplus, Wolf, Federal loose packed PD stuff, and other crappy ammo)

-MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. Many guys prefer optics, and they have many advantages over iron sight. Like many things, optics are prone to failure, thus it important to know how to use your iron sights. Once you have mastered the iron sights then and only then consider moving up to optics.

-USE QUALITY U.S. GOVERMENT ISSUE (USGI) MAGAZINES that are in good servicable condition. Stay away from aftermarket magazines, more often than not they will cause nothing but problems. A couple of things that I do to my all of magazines to enhance reliability is use the Wolff Gunsprings Xtra power magazine springs in my mags. I replace the black or green followers with the new coyote MAGPUL Enhanced followers. If you have the time prior to the class, take the mags to the range and make sure they work good. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.

-LEARN TO PROPERLY CLEAN, LUBRICATE, AND MAINTAIN YOUR RIFLE / CARBINE. I recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 technical manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly clean, lubricate, and maintain your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 to 800 per day, everyday. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your carbine.

-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers. Stick with the "Tier 1 manufacturers" ie. Colt, Bushmaster, and Rock River Arms as a general rule.....and make sure the gun has a chrome lined barrel.

-I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle 223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.

-If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.

-If you are new to AR's get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine with iron sights, take the Tactical Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you need them.

-Make sure you have a good sling, I always recommend a 3 point sling to new shooters, and you will probably need a 3 point sling, because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)

-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR, good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a 3 point sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:40:07 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies folks. Very good advice, Marine. I spoke with the instructor (Mr. Rogers) and he advised me to put my Aimpoint on it. I really wanted to go irons but he recommended against it. No Wolf or Olympic for me, thanks, and I think the only reloads I'd trust would be Black Hills blue-box. And yes, the 6920 is a damn fine piece of equipment.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:25:29 AM EDT
I recently assisted in instructing our departments new patrol rifle program. We had 77 students during 5 two-day classes. Once training was done, we went through over 50,000 rounds of Winchester Q3131, (the newly made stuff). I was impressed with the ammunition.

If the class you are attending calls for 2,000 rounds, I might consider bringing some extra, just in case you have to reshoot a stage, or get to squeeze in additional training.


Beat Trash
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:25:00 PM EDT
I have shot about 4K of the Georgia Arms Canned Heat in various classes, and have been quite happy with it...

One thing to consider about the M855 or any other rounds with a steel core, is they may not be allowed on some ranges or if the instructor is using metal reactive targets... I would double check with the instructor before purchasing the ammo.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:33:13 PM EDT
I have been checking on taking my first course, one thing remains consistant in the class descriptions....

"No reloaded ammo" "Factory loads only" "No Wolf, it will kill everyone near you"

I can't remember which one had that last one.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:21:29 PM EDT
I would take Wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:37:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ComputerGuy:
I would take Wolf ammo.


Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:56:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers. Stick with the "Tier 1 manufacturers" ie. Colt, Bushmaster, and Rock River Arms as a general rule.....and make sure the gun has a chrome lined barrel.

-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR, good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a 3 point sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!





Ok, I give up. What component goes tits up on built rifles, assuming first quality manufactures? Do RRA bolts fail when purchased seperately? Do CMT LPK's suddenly turn into a pumpkin seeds? I would agree if you are talking about a rifle slapped together with out of spec junk, but this shouldn't discourage people from assembling a rifle from a stripped lower if they use Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, Colt, etc parts.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:30:33 PM EDT
I just buy Colt's and don't worry about what does'nt work........
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:33:34 PM EDT

for a 2K round class i'd bring 4K of M193: either Fed XM193 or Win Q3131/Q3131A.

no XM193PD
no Wolf.
no anything else.

ps
+1 what was said above --> make sure you have 1000+ rounds through your rifle IN IT'S CURRENT CONFIGURATION (bolt/mags/buffer/etc). don't go experimenting two days before the class.

ar-jedi


Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:53:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eddiein1984:

Ok, I give up. What component goes tits up on built rifles, assuming first quality manufactures? Do RRA bolts fail when purchased seperately? Do CMT LPK's suddenly turn into a pumpkin seeds? I would agree if you are talking about a rifle slapped together with out of spec junk, but this shouldn't discourage people from assembling a rifle from a stripped lower if they use Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, Colt, etc parts.




Have you ever attended a tactical training class?

I attend several training classes a year and see guns from just about every manufacturer. Home brews don't have one specific problem, (ie. failure to feed, failure to eject, etc), but built guns have a MUCH higher rate of failure than factory guns from companies like Stag Arms, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Colt, etc.

Most of the guys that show up with home brews will tell you that their guns have "Been 100% reliable". Then when you start asking them how many rounds they had through the gun it's usually a low round count, and most of their shooting has been plinking or shooting off the bench.

When you go to a tactical training class and you are shooting on average 750 to 1,000 rounds per day for 2 to 5 days, you are constantly running the gun hard for 8 hours a day, this tends to expose any weak points or problems in a gun and it's accessories.



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:04:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Badkennedy:
I spoke with the instructor (Mr. Rogers) and he advised me to put my Aimpoint on it. I really wanted to go irons but he recommended against it.




Can't argue with Mr. Rogers. If you already know how to run your irons, then there isn't a reason I can think of not to go with an Aimpoint.

The reason I put the "master your irons" in there is because I see so many guys who show up to training who put the "cart in front of the horse". Guys who have an optic on their gun and they don't know how to run their irons.

It seems like I see at least one of these guys a year in a class: The student is half way through the class and his optic goes down, (ie. it won't hold a zero because the screws on the mount have worked themselves loose because the owner didn't use loc-tite, etc.). Then they have to use their irons for the rest of the class.....they you find out that they have irons on the gun, the irons aren't sighted in, and the guy has NO idea of how to use them.....

Optics are clearly the way to go.....but the irons are their in case the iron goes down....it's a good idea to know how to use them.......But then again, what the hell do I know



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:27:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:44:44 AM EDT by Submariner]

Originally Posted By Badkennedy:
Thanks for the replies folks. Very good advice, Marine. I spoke with the instructor (Mr. Rogers) and he advised me to put my Aimpoint on it. I really wanted to go irons but he recommended against it. No Wolf or Olympic for me, thanks, and I think the only reloads I'd trust would be Black Hills blue-box. And yes, the 6920 is a damn fine piece of equipment.



Did "Mr. Rogers" say WHY he recommended coming to class with an Aimpoint instead of using iron sights?

ETA: Buy the best ammunition you can afford. You want to spend three days learning, not fighting your gear.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:35:41 AM EDT
Optics are just faster than irons. Some of the drills you do in carbine courses benefit from the speed.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Optics are just faster than irons. Some of the drills you do in carbine courses benefit from the speed.



I don't think anyone is disputing that.



Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:44:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:01:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By eddiein1984:

Ok, I give up. What component goes tits up on built rifles, assuming first quality manufactures? Do RRA bolts fail when purchased seperately? Do CMT LPK's suddenly turn into a pumpkin seeds? I would agree if you are talking about a rifle slapped together with out of spec junk, but this shouldn't discourage people from assembling a rifle from a stripped lower if they use Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, Colt, etc parts.




Have you ever attended a tactical training class?

I attend several training classes a year and see guns from just about every manufacturer. Home brews don't have one specific problem, (ie. failure to feed, failure to eject, etc), but built guns have a MUCH higher rate of failure than factory guns from companies like Stag Arms, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Colt, etc.

Most of the guys that show up with home brews will tell you that their guns have "Been 100% reliable". Then when you start asking them how many rounds they had through the gun it's usually a low round count, and most of their shooting has been plinking or shooting off the bench.

When you go to a tactical training class and you are shooting on average 750 to 1,000 rounds per day for 2 to 5 days, you are constantly running the gun hard for 8 hours a day, this tends to expose any weak points or problems in a gun and it's accessories.





Not with my own gun. I'm honestly curious about why a gun built with Stag parts would fail more often than a Stag built gun (or Bushmaster, RRA, etc).
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:38:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eddiein1984:

Not with my own gun. I'm honestly curious about why a gun built with Stag parts would fail more often than a Stag built gun (or Bushmaster, RRA, etc).




Eddie,


When I refer to "built guns" or "home brews".....I refering to a gun that has been put together with parts from several different manufacturers.





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