He calls em like he sees em ;)

He also has some of the best representations of CQBRs this thread has seen

Okay, I've still got some conflicting information the way I'm seeing it!

Page 1 says the CQBR Block 1 has a KAC RAS...which is the same length as the KAC RIS on the Mk18 Mod 0.  So, how is the rail longer on the CQBR Block 1 ("Mod 1")?

Sorry, it was a long week of work!

Also, it appears I need to look up what "URG" is!

Urg= upper receiver group.

The RIS on the block1 is the same length as the RAS on the mod0.The conflict is in the terminology referring to block II which uses the Daniel defense mk18 risii handguard. It is a complete free float rail interface system and not dependent on a delta ring like the mod0 and block1. Aesthetically speaking the mod0 and block1 looks very similar, as EC stated. Its the block II that is a different animal as far as the handguard is concerned.

Both the mod0 and block 1 use a fixed front sight tower. The blockii does not, unless you're one of those few that have either manufactured a fsp mk18 rail or in of the luckier few to have purchased one of the factory built mk18 risii fsp.

If you go back to the first page and read the first past a few times with all the parts differences, you will start to notice the separation. The more you see the easier it will be to pick out.

Then you can start your L119 build

No doubt. I saw his pictures on Reddit and it inspired me to do a clone build.

You are confusing "Block 1" with "Mod 1". People say they like their "Mod 1" for the longer rail length, not their "Block I". They're referring to the "Mk 18 Mod 1" or a CQBR with SOPMOD "Block II" accessories, i.e., the Daniel Defense Mk 18 RIS II - which is a free float rail and uses a low profile gas block under it so it has a lot more rail space than the RAS/RIS which retain the FSB.

CQBR Block I / Mk 18 Mod 0 - Roughly the same thing
CQBR Block II / Mk 18 Mod 1 - Roughly the same thing

The "Mk 18" is an issued rifle, i.e., lower and upper receiver that as far as we know was only ever issued through the Navy. The same upper receiver was eventually issued SOCOM-wide.

Also, as far as we know, the "Mk 18 Mod 1" is a real designation given the pics that CD shared that were fully issued NSWC rifles built on surplus M16s marked "18-1"

Nobody is a perfect expert on this stuff, but here's the basic idea of what we think we know - Just like the SPR, the CQBR started out as an accessory receiver for the M4 and was part of the SOPMOD kit, just like the optics, lasers, etc… It was an accessory. But at some point it was removed from SOPMOD and diverted off into it's own project headed up by Crane. Just like the Mk 12, that started out as a "Special Purpose Receiver" and morphed into the "Special Purpose Rifle" and then to the Mk 12 Mod 0/1 by slapping the receiver onto surplus M16A1s… the same thing happened with the CQBR. Crane took the CQBR and slapped it on to surplus M16A1 lower receivers, put carbine stocks on them, rear sling mounts (CQD), etc… and designated them the "Mk 18 Mod 0". The KAC RIS just happened to be the rail Crane was using for both the CQBR and Mk 18s at the time. Eventually this was upgraded to the KAC RAS.

So now you have accessory uppers (CQBRs) and complete rifles (Mk 18 Mod 0) coming from Crane. A large majority of these were sent to SOCOM units who would then of course accessorize them with SOPMOD accessories. Eventually, SOPMOD itself goes through a major upgrade (Block II) and part of that upgrade includes a new rail system (Danial Defense RIS II) which includes both a rifle (M4A1) length and short (Mk 18) length. So CQBRs start being issued with the new RIS II rail and a low profile gas block.

This is mostly just info we've put together with puzzle pieces dropped along the way.

But beyond the technical aspects of it, most people just call them "Mk 18s" because it's easy and recognizable. So when someone says "Mk 18 Mod 1" and they're really just talking about an M4A1 with an accessory short CQBR upper receiver that uses accessories from SOPMOD and Block II of the program - who cares. That's a mouthful and "Mk 18 Mod 1" gets the point across, whether it's accurate or not.

Probably the most recognizable aspect between the two "generations" is the shift from the KAC rails to the DD rail, and that's what people are referring to when they talk about their preference and how much rail space each generation affords.

Been whoring her out a lot lately but damn I love using this gat

Very informative post Crumb, thanks!

Yes

Anyone willing to sell a UID label if you have an extra?

I get that this is a clone thread. If you want to impress some guys on an internet forum then clone away, which was my original point.

How about stop trying to derail the thread with comments that aren't CQBR/MK18 related.

Okay, this makes complete sense now!  Thank you TinyCrumb.  This confirms what I was thinking, that the Mk18 Mod 1 did exist (just doesn't have it's own column on page 1 named "Mk18 Mod 1") and CQBR Block 1 are different!  Sorry for being a little slow on the uptake.

 

Other than the KAC NT4 flashhider, what other muzzle devices would be suitable for a Mod 1 clone?

Surefire FH556RC

I don't know if I'd go that far. All we've seen is pics that CD posted of NSW rifles with 18-1 marked on them. We're just assuming that these exist in a book somewhere officially designated "Mk 18 Mod 1". Either way, CQBRs are far more common and issued SOCOM-wide vs. Navy.

I don't have a column for it on page 1 because even if they do exist there's no known specs for the lower. So it's just a Block II CQBR on an unknown lower - vs. the Mk 18 Mod 0 has very specific specs for the lower that we know about, confirmed both from SMEs and pics.

Because the Mk 18 Mod 0 ended up getting widely issued to regular non-SOCOM units, most of them stayed in roughly their as-issued configuration, so building a clone of one is a stationary target (e.g., SOPMOD stock, CQD sling mount, LMT rear iron sight, Wilcox + Aimpoint, etc…). Whereas with the Mk 18 Mod 1, as far as we know, if they do exist, were only issued to the teams, in which case they're in god-knows-what end configuration and building a "clone" of one is fairly pointless because you're really doing the exact same thing as cloning a Block II CQBR.

Oops. I meant Mod 0.

Like this?

Standard A2.

So ive already got a Mod 0 with a KAC rail that I shoot quite regulary.. but ive got the same free float rail in my parts bin that I used for a previous build (built a Metal Gear Solid 4 clone) which I'm about to use for another MK18 mod 0(ish) build solely because of your pictures... gonna clone your gun except for the light I think...

your build is super slick and I always love your shooting vids on the M4A1 Block II threads and MK18 thread... keep it up....

During the last six months have seen 17 ea Mk18 Mod 0 that we were returning back to Crane.  Only one of those had a M16A1 receiver which also had the Mk18 Mod 0 engraved on the guns rightside with anchor.  One had a early W303xxx serial number M4A1 receiver.  These were the first serial number block range we received late 94/early 95'  All others were late M4A1 receivers.  All 17 were Colt receivers, only one marked Mk18 Mod 0 however.  None also had the A2 BUIS, few missing rear sights but most with Matech BUIS and all had NT4 Flash Hinder (known offically as QDSS)

On the Mk18-1 receivers I've seen from the Navy in the last 1.5 yr all crossed out Colt M4A1 receivers.  All Army SF guns are Colt M4A1 receivers with either 10.3" (all low profile) or 14.5" DD RIS II (mixed low profile/FSB)   SOCOM is also issuing complete DD RIS II uppers with it own serial number for M4A1 Block II.  At work they are just refered to as URG's on the Army side, not CQBRs Naval term (more confusion).  I know FN has a contract for M4/M4A1 carbines but I've never seen one in SOF, all Colts for some reason.  Spare parts however are a mix of all USGI contractors.  Usually all Colt 10.3" and 14.5" (both Govt and SOCOM profiles), upper M4 receivers are Colt, FN and one or two others I've posted, Bolts and Bolt Carriers are usually FN lately.  All depends what is in the supply chain at the time for common items.  SOPMOD specific ie KAC, DD, Geissele, Surefire parts as needed.  Still haven't looked at what MARSOC Raiders are carrying closely, only their support personal.  Most have either standard M4A1s with KAC handguards and NT4/QDSS FH or M16A4s with KAC M5 RAS.  





CD

I think the first reports of the Mk 18 Mod 0 program we ever had was that they were built on surplus M16A1 receivers with the KAC RIS rail. That led to a lot of information getting spread that that's the only way they were built. But in the last few years we've seen tons of evidence of them with M4A1 lowers and KAC RAS rails. My guess is that Crane used what they had on hand to build them, and when the RIS got upgraded to the RAS that got thrown in there too. I think overall there's just been a lot of misinformation spread on here based on bits and pieces that have surfaced over time (and may have been true at the time) but clearly things evolved.


Right, and this is part of what makes it confusing, because it still isn't confirmation that there exists such designation as "Mk 18 Mod 1" right? I mean we're just speculating that that is what "18-1" stands for?


You would think that they could just come up with a simple, standard, cross-branch naming scheme for them. Oh wait…

On the Army side, when referring to the URGs, is there any specific name or slang used to differentiate between the 10.3s and 14.5s? I.e., are most people referring to them as "10.3" URGs" or "Mk 18 URGs" or something else?



FWIW, almost all pics that we see of MARSOC Raiders, they're using 10.3" URGs, not 14.5s, and they're usually recognizable by the fact that they're still using the NT4/QDSS (instead of Surefire) for the FH and suppressor and they also seem to typically use the USMC contract PEQ-16 instead of the SOPMOD LA-5 (though that doesn't seem to be universal). Examples:

I haven't looked closely at the Raiders guns only their support personnel's.  The support is running standard M4A1 and M16A4s.  Been trying to get out to the Raider locations but keep going elsewhere for support.  Raiders are running Block IIs.



Any with a DD RIS II is a URG.  If talking specificly then 10.3" or 14.5" URG.


CD

Yah, sorry, I understood what you meant from your first post, I was just saying what we've seen from the outside of the actual raiders' stuff - but as with all the pics we get, I'm sure it's a super incomplete picture. It would be awesome if you ever got some more intel/pics on their setups if you ever have the chance - USMC always seems to have the most oddball/interesting gear.

Thanks as always for all your info, we must all owe you at least a million beers by now!

Yes:  "Long" & "Shorty."  Everyone seems to know what the other is talking about.

Sheared the roll pin in my gasbuster charging handle this weekend at a Mike Pannone carbine class; split that little guy into 3 parts!

Is that a team wendy helmet? if so...

good lookin rigs all around

Christ, come on.  I've got a nice setup, i'm not going to dump it at this point and sacrifice comfort because of politics.  That said, i wouldn't go buy TW gear now.

Yes, You do have nice set up. all around, belt, rifle, carrier, and even the helmet is quality all politics aside.... that was the reason for the last statement. But you know someone had to give you crap.

approx. How many rounds went through the rifle before the GB kersploded on you?

Quit making stupid posts. They're made in the U.S
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/277047_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom

Following on the above, between CDs pics and posts I think we can go all the way with Mk 18 Mod 1 being official. Every pic of a Mod 1 I saw had an A2 profile / repurposed M4A1 lower with the M4A1 designation lined out and "NAVY 18-1" engraved below the serial number. What's interesting is that the item is listed as Mk18 Mod 1 in the property books, not NAVY 18-1. Quoted from page 1207 of this thread - for posterity and all that shit :






 

I have appx 12,000 rounds on that gasbuster, the barrel and bolt were replaced at about 10,000.  Charging handle is fine otherwise, i put a new roll pin in last night.

"Official" use of "MK 18 MOD 1" appears to have come around the same time 10.3" URGs began being accounted for by serial number, which appears to be relatively recent.  

The use of the term in enthusiast and commercial circles as far as I can tell, however, predates official use, and appears to be more like a favorable disposition for the "A3" debacle (the M16A2E4 was widely heralded as being the next "M16A3," and Colt and other commercial entities began referring to flattop uppers as "A3"s, but the M16A2E3 became the M16A3, while the M16A2E4 became the M16A4.  Now, to this day the question is fielded "what's the difference between an A3 and A4 upper?"  Further complicating this, of course, is an ECP that upgraded the M16A3 to an M16A4 flattop upper... oy.  Moral of the story, don't make up military designations until they actually exist, kids).  

The basic "rule of thumb" is essentially, near as I can tell, if it's ordered from Crane as a complete rifle, it's an MK 18.  If the upper alone is ordered and installed on an M4A1, it's an M4A1, or "shorty M4A1."  

Early MK 18 MOD 0s came on M16A1 lowers, but the supply of serviceable M16A1 lowers is not infinite.  

SOF units outside of the Navy generally source their individual weapons (M4A1s) through their home services, and they are accounted for as such.  The Navy used to/did/does get complete M4A1s, but since Crane is their home service, appears to have, at some point in time started simply ordering 10.3" carbines complete.  Not a Navy guy, so I don't know the full intricacies of their system...  The Coast Guard appears to be getting their MK 18s as complete rifles through Crane as well, and many support personnel/units in/for NSW have been getting MK 18s as well.  

What I'm curious about is at what level the M4A1 NAVY 18-1 is "official" at.  Hopefully they've streamlined their supply system since the late-2000s... but several years ago, there was a bit of "crisis" about what to do with these "Model 727s" that were floating around on the books that were causing a huge problem, because they were no longer "active" weapon systems, and you couldn't technically order replacements/replacement parts for them, nor could you just "shuffle them over" to the M4A1 column, despite the fact that a great many of them had been converted to basically be M4A1s, and Crane was trying to figure out how in the hell to get these things off their books.  

~Augee

Some CQBR pics on this Facebook page for MARSOC and if you watch the very first video in their feed today, lots of CQBR action by MARSOC Raiders in plain clothes. Pretty cool!

JTAC to Augee: Request knowledge bomb support.
Augee: Roger, good copy. Target acquired.
JTAC: Cleared hot. Make it rain.
Augee: Package delivered.

Sucks to hear, happened to my gb aswell, luckily I was just plinking that day.

I replaced the roll pin and am waiting for it to happen again.

They put out some good stuff. The video last year on that opperation Raven was cool too.

Some FN M4A1s have made there way to Group, but the bulk are going OCONUS to be swapped out with M4s to follow with Big Armys plan to go pure M4A1.

Mic drop

Mod 0 inspired... with PSA 10.5 CHF upper...

Hot shit son!!

Some things never change in here....

All that attention to detail and you threw a hot dog safety on there…

Get that thing replaced!

Can't wait to see it completed!

It's all I had in the spare parts bin.

I've gotta get a mil buffer tube first though. The only one I had laying around turned out to be a commercial and I don't think I have a commercial stock for a hold over til I get a mil one ordered.

How long did your approval take?


Sorry for the incorrect muffler

Mailed 19JAN. Check cashed 12FEB. Approved 13JUN.