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Posted: 7/24/2005 11:41:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 9:58:51 AM EDT by urbankaos04]
Okay, I'm trying to build a 16" RECCE-type rifle, but just can't seem to settle on a barrel. The NOVESEKE (sp?) seems to be a great barrel, but I don't know how I feel about a non-chromed lined barrel; however, if one wants exceptional accuracy it appears that a SS barrel is the only way to go.

My question is this: How worried does one have to be about maintenance on some of these high quality SS barrles?

One last question: What chrome lined barrel, currently on the market, will yield match-type performance?
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:39:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 5:40:02 PM EDT by eklikwhoa]
as long as you properly mantain the ss barrel then you wont have any problems.


as for chromelined i would look into denny's new "operator" bbl.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:25:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:31:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:15:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I think you are mistaken on your above statements. Chrome Molly Barrels resist heat better than SS barrels (less warping) and they generally have a higher round count than SS barrels (due to higher tensile strength). Most of of your precision weapons from Remy 700's to 50 Cal's to Varmint bolt guns use Chrome Molly barrels.


So are you talking about total rounds until the barrel bursts (re: "have a higher round count than SS barrels (due to higher tensile strength)"), or accuracy lifetime? If the latter, why don't we see High Power shooters (Match or Service rifle) using CM barrels?

-z
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 3:19:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:27:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I think you are mistaken on your above statements. Chrome Molly Barrels resist heat better than SS barrels (less warping) and they generally have a higher round count than SS barrels (due to higher tensile strength). Most of of your precision weapons from Remy 700's to 50 Cal's to Varmint bolt guns use Chrome Molly barrels.


So are you talking about total rounds until the barrel bursts (re: "have a higher round count than SS barrels (due to higher tensile strength)"), or accuracy lifetime? If the latter, why don't we see High Power shooters (Match or Service rifle) using CM barrels?

-z



The reason you see more SS than CM in HP or benchrest is that SS machines easier. It's easier for a bbl maufacture to drill, hone and rifle a SS barrel and it's easier for a smith to cut a good chamber. All of these things lead to better accuracy which is the ultimate goal of competition shooters.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:55:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:54:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 8:02:29 AM EDT
Specifically, how does throat erosion rate & mechanism differ between SS and CM?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 8:55:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 6:29:57 AM EDT
I would like to know how tensile strength has any thing to do with how a barrel wears. All that is saying to me is that under tensile loads the barrel will be able to handle a higher load per area. If any one can relate why tensile strength contributes to barrel life I would actually like to know.

Matt

Link Posted: 7/26/2005 6:38:49 AM EDT
wih all the great shooting non-chrome lined bbls. offered from our great dealers here the question is which one?

Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:03:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 7:05:34 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:25:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Matth3wdean:
I would like to know how tensile strength has any thing to do with how a barrel wears. All that is saying to me is that under tensile loads the barrel will be able to handle a higher load per area. If any one can relate why tensile strength contributes to barrel life I would actually like to know.

Matt





Throat wear is the biggest issue with barrels. The harder the steel the less wear you will see in this area (from my understanding). This doesn't mean that you won't get a long barrel life out of a SS barrel, but I believe that CM barrels will last longer.



C4



Is there a direct correlation between tensile strength and hardness?
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:35:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 7:37:29 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:35:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:36:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:

Is there a direct correlation between tensile strength and hardness?



NO

Matt
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:43:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 7:44:34 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:46:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:48:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 8:22:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 8:23:06 AM EDT by twl]
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 8:32:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 8:46:08 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 9:53:39 AM EDT
I am a boilermaker by trade, and although I am not an expert on anything guns, I am well versed in my trade. Whenever there is going to be a high flow rate of exhaust on preheater tubes, there is always stainless steel guards on them. I have never seen carbon steel used in this manner. I take this as stainless have a better wear capabilities. If a guard isn't installed, the flow will eat right through the carbon steel tube. But when welding stainless, anyone will tell you that it keeps the heat in and drips all over you in the overhead position and will burn right through leather welding coats. I believe if a stainless barrel has mags dumped through it, a regular barrel will last longer. If a not shot to overheating I think a stainless would last longer. But then again, thats my opinion, I could be wrong
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 12:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2005 12:21:09 PM EDT by 0612Devil]

Originally Posted By NapoleonBonaparte:
I am a boilermaker by trade, and although I am not an expert on anything guns, I am well versed in my trade. Whenever there is going to be a high flow rate of exhaust on preheater tubes, there is always stainless steel guards on them. I have never seen carbon steel used in this manner. I take this as stainless have a better wear capabilities. If a guard isn't installed, the flow will eat right through the carbon steel tube. But when welding stainless, anyone will tell you that it keeps the heat in and drips all over you in the overhead position and will burn right through leather welding coats. I believe if a stainless barrel has mags dumped through it, a regular barrel will last longer. If a not shot to overheating I think a stainless would last longer. But then again, thats my opinion, I could be wrong




Cautiously and well said sir!
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 5:45:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 4:48:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
If you are one of the guys who shoots his gun to death, never cleans it, never maintains it, and waits till something breaks to do anything, then a chrome lined barrel is for you.

If you perform any kind of cleaning and maintenance on your gun, then the only thing you might notice is the better accuracy from the unchromed barrel.

I can understand your feelings, because the way chrome-lining is hyped around here, you'd think that your gun would not work if it didn't have a chrome-lined barrel. But don't worry, it will work just fine. When you move to an accuracy barrel, you leave the chrome lining in the past.






Thanks for the objective feedback.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 3:25:05 AM EDT
If you,re in a unfriendly environment go chrome
There may not be time to baby your rifle-

SS when you have the time and equipment to clean
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:22:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
If you,re in a unfriendly environment go chrome
There may not be time to baby your rifle-

SS when you have the time and equipment to clean


People keep saying this. I "never" clean my SS barrels, and I shoot for 3Gun and training quite a bit. If they get wet, I clean 'em out, but otherwise, just shoot shoot shoot..


Link Posted: 7/29/2005 1:55:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
If you,re in a unfriendly environment go chrome
There may not be time to baby your rifle-

SS when you have the time and equipment to clean


People keep saying this. I "never" clean my SS barrels, and I shoot for 3Gun and training quite a bit. If they get wet, I clean 'em out, but otherwise, just shoot shoot shoot..





See, that's what I used to think, too. Thanks for sharing your experience with SS barrels, Zak.

Zak, what drawbacks, if any, have you seen when using SS barrels on a HARD USE AR? Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 2:48:37 PM EDT
Did the basic issue weapons before the M16/M4 have chrome lined barrels? M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M14?

I’m doing just fine with out chrome!
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 3:03:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 3:14:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
The M-14 did.



Is that where the line is drawn, in the series of basic issue weapons that were non-chrome lined? Did it all begin with the M14?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:28:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 11:31:16 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
C4iGrant: I wasn't aware that the NOVESKE barrels were CHROME MOLLY. I was under the impression that there were stainless.

So, then, from what I'm understanding, the NOVESKE barrel would be more durable/robust than an SS barrel because of its higher tensile strenth/hardness? And a CHROME LINED barrel would be more durable still because of the extra protection the chrom lining adds. With this premise in mind then the an SS barrel would be the first to experience loss in performance, followed by the CM barrel and, finally, the chrome lined barrel. Of course, the non-chrome lined barrels are more concerned with accuracy and the CL barrel with HARD USE.

Well, now that I know that the NOVESKE is a CM barrel it definitely changes things.

By the way, are LILJA Dev Group barrels SS or CM?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:01:27 AM EDT
The Noveske AR barrels are all SS (unless he did some CM on special order). Noveske makes a lot of barrels, not just AR barrels and not only polygonal.

I am a big fan of polygonal rifling. A Noveske SS barrel will resist the elements, and if some of the Noveske barrels out there are typical, still deliver sub MOA accuracy after the 10k round mark.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:11:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 12:12:51 AM EDT by urbankaos04]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The Noveske AR barrels are all SS (unless he did some CM on special order). Noveske makes a lot of barrels, not just AR barrels and not only polygonal.

I am a big fan of polygonal rifling. A Noveske SS barrel will resist the elements, and if some of the Noveske barrels out there are typical, still deliver sub MOA accuracy after the 10k round mark.



I guess Grant is wrong?

I'm used to sometimes not cleaning up my chrome lined Bushy after every shooting session. Will that be a big no-no with a NOVESKE SS barrel? I'm just curious as to how "involved" the cleaning will have to be with such a barrel. I guess I've been spoiled by CL barrels.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:20:41 AM EDT
Grant may well have a cut rifled or noveske barrel. He makes the same profile in cut rifled, but they aren't all the rage like the polygonal. To my knowledge, the polygonal 5.56mm AR barrels are all stainless (excluding the possibility of a limited run, special order, etc).

I'm not trying to question Grant at all.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:23:05 AM EDT
Cleaning polygonal barrels (theone to get, IMHO) is a different process. On his website,]jnrifleworks.com, Mr. Noveske has posted cleaning instructions.

I'm a chrome lined mafia member myself, so I am not qualified to speak to the issue in any detail.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:49:16 AM EDT
Interesting. I looked at Grants page, and he lists the 14.5 and 16s as CM, while Noveskes page lists all of them as ss.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:37:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 10:14:29 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:43:07 AM EDT
fantastic thread... i think a lot of us are all thinking along the same lines with each other.... I think it just comes down to a limitation of data....

We can rely on our personal experiences to a point...

Taken from the Noveske site talking about the 10.5" CQB barrel 5.56 SS barrel:



"The bottom picture shows a cold 5 shot group on a clean barrel. The rifle belongs to an outstanding member of the Special Operations community. The lower shot was the fouler (clean Barrel), the left round was called (stock trigger), the three others represent the barrels ability at 100 yards. Please note, this was done after over 9000 rounds fired in four days."

if thats not extreme wear i don't know what is... is it possible that SS has its throat go down hill quicker... but the polygonal rifling in this barrel helps keep the bullet more stable therefore making it accurate after its left the throat? (i'm just brain storming)

I guess i'm just confused exactly how throat and the rifle twist relates to accuracy, which has more of an impact and in what ways...

again great thread... i hope we can keep this going with good involvment and info.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:20:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:34:45 AM EDT
My understanding from Zediker's book "The Mouse That Roared" was that the throat of a SS barrel looked nasty, but still shot well longer than CM.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:04:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 10:05:49 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:40:06 PM EDT
It seems that many feel stainless will hold accuracy longer and wear better if its not shot to overheating. So.....hOw hot is too hot then for stainless????
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:43:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:09:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
A properly contoured stainless barrel will hold accuracy throughout continuous careful aimed fire. If you are firing faster than aimed fire, you arent shooting for accuracy, so you'll never notice any difference in the groups.


Define "properly" and "careful" and then this might be meaningful.

For example-- If "careful aimed fire" is satisfied by using 1" dots at 100 yards, I can do this until the barrel explodes shooting a round every 1 or two seconds. Show me any barrel that will do this without drifting POI.

-z

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:26:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 3:45:18 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:49:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 3:56:51 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]

at 600yds. I put 20 shots all on call, in 9 minutes


Take your time and carefully aim, you can shoot nice groups with an SS barrel.

It turns out this is much less interesting than I had hoped.

There is a middle ground between High-Power and "minute of dead" CQB hosing, and that's where the barrel debate gets interesting. How many sustained rounds can I shoot through barrel X before it drifts or opens more than Y MOA?


ETA:

For example, can a barrel withstand a high-intensity close-range 100-round course of fire and still be able to engage small distant targets successfuly immediately afterwards?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:

at 600yds. I put 20 shots all on call, in 9 minutes


Take your time and carefully aim, you can shoot nice groups with an SS barrel.

It turns out this is much less interesting than I had hoped.

There is a middle ground between High-Power and "minute of dead" CQB hosing, and that's where the barrel debate gets interesting. How many sustained rounds can I shoot through barrel X before it drifts or opens more than Y MOA?


ETA:

For example, can a barrel withstand a high-intensity close-range 100-round course of fire and still be able to engage small distant targets successfuly immediately afterwards?



amen... will we ever find the values for those variables..
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:50:35 PM EDT
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