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Posted: 1/12/2011 3:40:18 PM EDT
In my search for info on the AR15 I'm planning, specifically on the LPK, I've come upon the term "non rotational pins".
The advertisement says "special anti-spin & anti-creep retainers to prevent wear on your AR15 or M16 receiver".
I assume that this is for hard use with thousands of rounds, and something I really don't need, as I don't expect to fire that many rounds.
Am I correct? Or is wear on the receiver really a problem? It's a $25 upgrade.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:45:42 PM EDT
you are correct sir
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:46:30 PM EDT
I usually put on a set of KNS anti-rotation pins. Do I need them ? NO . But they are really cool looking. I personally prefer the original version that looks like little dog bones.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:46:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Racer9:
In my search for info on the AR15 I'm planning, specifically on the LPK, I've come upon the term "non rotational pins".
The advertisement says "special anti-spin & anti-creep retainers to prevent wear on your AR15 or M16 receiver".
I assume that this is for hard use with thousands of rounds, and something I really don't need, as I don't expect to fire that many rounds.
Am I correct? Or is wear on the receiver really a problem? It's a $25 upgrade.


only needed if you have a registered receiver M16. recommended if you have a 9mm, and just a way to spend money if you are building a semi .223
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:59:22 PM EDT
Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 4:02:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Racer9:


I assume that this is for hard use with thousands of rounds

If they were needed for hard use they would be part of the MILSPEC.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 4:06:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
Originally Posted By Racer9:
In my search for info on the AR15 I'm planning, specifically on the LPK, I've come upon the term "non rotational pins".
The advertisement says "special anti-spin & anti-creep retainers to prevent wear on your AR15 or M16 receiver".
I assume that this is for hard use with thousands of rounds, and something I really don't need, as I don't expect to fire that many rounds.
Am I correct? Or is wear on the receiver really a problem? It's a $25 upgrade.


only needed if you have a registered receiver M16. recommended if you have a 9mm, and just a way to spend money if you are building a semi .223


They are not even needed on a RR.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 4:48:41 PM EDT
On a new receiver they are not necessary. I have a pre-ban lower and the trigger pins kept creeping out so I threw a set of KNS pins in it. That was my only logical solution to the problem, over sized pins would have been a stupid idea.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 5:00:58 PM EDT
I believe there are 'anti-walk' and 'anti-rotational' pins available. You probably only needed that anti-walk and these are considerably cheaper.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 5:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
Originally Posted By Racer9:
In my search for info on the AR15 I'm planning, specifically on the LPK, I've come upon the term "non rotational pins".
The advertisement says "special anti-spin & anti-creep retainers to prevent wear on your AR15 or M16 receiver".
I assume that this is for hard use with thousands of rounds, and something I really don't need, as I don't expect to fire that many rounds.
Am I correct? Or is wear on the receiver really a problem? It's a $25 upgrade.


only needed if you have a registered receiver M16. recommended if you have a 9mm, and just a way to spend money if you are building a semi .223
Or if your one of the unlucky souls who has issues with broken pins when running 22lr conversions.
I've never seen anyone report a KNS pin breakage.

Link Posted: 1/12/2011 5:06:54 PM EDT
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 5:15:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By isullivan:
On a new receiver they are not necessary. I have a pre-ban lower and the trigger pins kept creeping out so I threw a set of KNS pins in it. That was my only logical solution to the problem, over sized pins would have been a stupid idea.


+1
Have this same problem with my pre-ban, KNS pins solved the problem, even with brand new springs they still walk out. My preban WAS an rdias host, and saw a LOT of fire, and the holes are indeed worn down, so if you have an RR this is a very wise choice. For 25 bucks, you can't go wrong, it's insurance.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 6:07:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 10:15:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 10:35:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.


They rotate and cause wear. Pins that walk typically mean incorrect FCG install or broken pin.

KNS pins have a purpose.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 12:04:16 AM EDT
this guy doesnt need them...why would you? (unless you have an out of spec receiver)

Link Posted: 1/13/2011 12:14:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.


They rotate and cause wear. Pins that walk typically mean incorrect FCG install or broken pin.

KNS pins have a purpose.


Their purpose is mostly to make money. The overwhelming majority of guns don't need them. I use a post-sample (an older one, but obviously post-86) on a regular basis for demos and what not, and it's original FCG pins are still there, and they are still in place. Some guns, agreed, will need them due to wear or improper machining.

I think they look cool, and I don't begrudge people using them. I have some somewhere, even. But needed? Nope.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 10:00:46 AM EDT
Needed.... only if as stated above for the few valid reasons noted. Usually we buy them for a different reason, being honest. Those of us here (yes, you & you & you), MOST of us, are infected with the never ending BRD, we don't need them. Most often than not, we do not need the other after market items we buy either, stocks, grips, handguards, etc. Fact is we love some or all of these and will spend tons getting what we want; because we can. After time passes reality hits, and we finally honest in admitting we have the disease. Yet we still spend if the wallet &/or wife allows.

"Hi, My name is Bob, and I'm a BR addict".......... HI, BOB!!!!!

Net - Need, no, unless valid reason exist as stated above.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 10:07:20 AM EDT
I rate KNS the same as a Titanium fire pin
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 10:10:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.


They rotate and cause wear. Pins that walk typically mean incorrect FCG install or broken pin.

KNS pins have a purpose.

I'm very confused by your responses to me.

"If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it."

I said that sentence above, which would (by the use of the word "insurance") imply that I understand there is a purpose behind them.

I did not say the pins do not rotate. I did not say that KNS pins do not have a purpose.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 2:37:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.


They rotate and cause wear. Pins that walk typically mean incorrect FCG install or broken pin.

KNS pins have a purpose.

I'm very confused by your responses to me.

"If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it."

I said that sentence above, which would (by the use of the word "insurance") imply that I understand there is a purpose behind them.

I did not say the pins do not rotate. I did not say that KNS pins do not have a purpose.


The KNS pins prevent wear on the receiver due to pins rotating. Instead, the pins stay fixed and the hammer & pins wear. Who cares ? Really nobody unless you have a RR and don't want to ever worry, or if you are running an unramped 9mm set because those do tend to break hammer pins but the pieces stay wedged in place and really wallow out the holes.
Link Posted: 1/13/2011 4:16:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2011 4:17:17 PM EDT by 928M4]
Out of curiosity and for the sake of actual data based on experience vs an unexperienced "opinion"...how many of you KNS "haters" have actually used them in an AR platform?... and for how long?

As I said just curious of those that tried/used them in their rifles and still consider them worthless, that would really be interesting to know, especially for a technical forum....Plus, these would be the only "opinions" I would be interested in, but that's just me.

Yeah I know, you don't have to eat dog poop to know it tastes like sh$t......but can you really say for sure it tastes bad...if you haven't actually tried it a few times :-)

Ha, Ha, sorry I just couldn"lt resist.

Link Posted: 1/13/2011 5:15:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 928M4:
Out of curiosity and for the sake of actual data based on experience vs an unexperienced "opinion"...how many of you KNS "haters" have actually used them in an AR platform?... and for how long?

As I said just curious of those that tried/used them in their rifles and still consider them worthless, that would really be interesting to know, especially for a technical forum....Plus, these would be the only "opinions" I would be interested in, but that's just me.



I've never used them.
why? simply because I've yet to see an AR that needed them.
seriously...over here we can legally get M16s that have been converted to semiauto only...these are Model613 from Malaysia not really NIB and their pins are fine even after years of abuse



if you have an out of spec lower thats a different story

Link Posted: 1/13/2011 8:47:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:
If you have springs that are strong enough and they're installed properly in the FCG, you will not have pins that walk out. If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it.


You do realize that the FCG pins rotate don't you?

Yes. I didn't say they don't rotate. I said they won't walk out.


They rotate and cause wear. Pins that walk typically mean incorrect FCG install or broken pin.

KNS pins have a purpose.

I'm very confused by your responses to me.

"If you want them for looks or insurance, go for it."

I said that sentence above, which would (by the use of the word "insurance") imply that I understand there is a purpose behind them.

I did not say the pins do not rotate. I did not say that KNS pins do not have a purpose.


The KNS pins prevent wear on the receiver due to pins rotating. Instead, the pins stay fixed and the hammer & pins wear. Who cares ? Really nobody unless you have a RR and don't want to ever worry, or if you are running an unramped 9mm set because those do tend to break hammer pins but the pieces stay wedged in place and really wallow out the holes.


I have a RR, an I use them...

Link Posted: 1/13/2011 10:52:37 PM EDT
You can get non rotational pins from KNS that look just like the standard pins .1555 with no screws thee like $6 a set.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 3:05:27 AM EDT
I like these things. You don't need them, but I like them just the same.

Link Posted: 1/14/2011 5:48:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2011 5:52:35 AM EDT by 928M4]
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
The KNS pins prevent wear on the receiver due to pins rotating. Instead, the pins stay fixed and the hammer & pins wear. Who cares ?


I wonder what will wear first.... aluminum holes with case hardened pins rotating in them.... or a shot peened steel hammer with case hardened pins rotating in it? Would be an interesting experiment.

BUT... which would be easier to fix or repair...especially in the field.

Replace Hammer and pin...a few bucks and a couple of minutes tops.

Replace lower receiver...MORE bucks and 30 minutes or so.

Personally I would rather carry a spare pin/hammer around inside my pistol grip..than I would a spare receiver, fits better too :-).

Sure you can also drill out to next size, re-anodize the new holes (if you don't anodize the bare aluminum it will wear 4 times faster than before) and find a larger pin and matching trigger. Good luck with that in the field, especially if you don't carry a drill with you.

That $30 insurance policy is sounding better all the time...may have to get me some of them thar purdy "worthless" gadgets :-)
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 5:49:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:


only needed if you have a registered receiver M16. recommended if you have a 9mm, and just a way to spend money if you are building a semi .223


correct
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 6:08:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2011 6:08:35 AM EDT by Krylancelo]

Originally Posted By 928M4:
Originally Posted By Shizzlemah:
The KNS pins prevent wear on the receiver due to pins rotating. Instead, the pins stay fixed and the hammer & pins wear. Who cares ?


I wonder what will wear first.... aluminum holes with case hardened pins rotating in them.... or a shot peened steel hammer with case hardened pins rotating in it? Would be an interesting experiment.

BUT... which would be easier to fix or repair...especially in the field.

Replace Hammer and pin...a few bucks and a couple of minutes tops.

Replace lower receiver...MORE bucks and 30 minutes or so.

Personally I would rather carry a spare pin/hammer around inside my pistol grip..than I would a spare receiver, fits better too :-).

Sure you can also drill out to next size, re-anodize the new holes (if you don't anodize the bare aluminum it will wear 4 times faster than before) and find a larger pin and matching trigger. Good luck with that in the field, especially if you don't carry a drill with you.

That $30 insurance policy is sounding better all the time...may have to get me some of them thar purdy "worthless" gadgets :-)

Sorta playing devil's advocate here but getting the KNS pins out in the field is a lot harder than getting out the standard pins. Which is why they are how they are. Switching out a hammer, especially with KNS pins during a gun fight isn't on my top list of priorities... I'd rather switch to my sidearm for the rest of the fight than try to fix a seriously (anything more than a double feed clearing) malfunctioning rifle.
Link Posted: 1/14/2011 8:05:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Sorta playing devil's advocate here but getting the KNS pins out in the field is a lot harder than getting out the standard pins. Which is why they are how they are.


Yes, but you can still use standard pins because the receiver is not damaged/degraded :-)

Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

Switching out a hammer, especially with KNS pins during a gun fight isn't on my top list of priorities... I'd rather switch to my sidearm for the rest of the fight than try to fix a seriously (anything more than a double feed clearing) malfunctioning rifle.


Their are millions of variables, and sure grabbing another firearm in a fire fight is always optimal...IF you have one...but if you are out in the field for extended periods (or at the Range for the day) and out of range of backup and/or replacement weapons..replacing a pin/hammer is simple, even with KNS pins and doing so is better than just throwing your broken M4 at someone, or missing a whole range day. The allen wrench is (or should be) inside the pistol grip or where ever you keep your backup parts.

And no matter what scenarios that can be dreamed up, the aluminum holes will wear faster than the pins/hammers, and no matter what, it is easier to replace the pin/hammer than to replace or repair the receiver.

It's funny, no one blinks an eye at $500 flashlights, $200 front folding BUIS, $1000 plus scopes, etc...but it seems the "experts" go tits up about a $30 set of high(er) quality parts for one of the most important parts of the weapon, the trigger/hammer..seems odd to me???

Just trying to understand why those that have no experience with these widgets are so dead set against them. Personally I come here to ARFCOM to learn and share experiences with others, but I prefer to learn from opinions based on actual experience and not just "opinions".

IMHO, if they don't hurt the weapon, and even if at a minimum the pins themselves are higher quality than "normal" pins ( I refuse to say Mil-Spec :-) then "why not" ??? Or at a minimum why all the "negative naysayers" , it's not your $30 someone is spending. :-)

In all seriousness and joking / friendly jabbing aside, it would be great to hear from those with real experience using them if they work or not, or if they have caused any negative impact to the weapon.

Link Posted: 1/14/2011 8:52:42 AM EDT
Really dumb question about the KNS pins, how the heck do they work? Also I had YHM toss in a set of KNS stainless NM pins on my last order (I don't really even know why I did but the man said "they'er on sale for $2.50", so I said "hell why not'?) Q: They don't fit! Some one have an answer for that? Hm, maybe that's why they were on sale? Do'h!

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 11:27:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GunnyApproved:
Really dumb question about the KNS pins, how the heck do they work? Also I had YHM toss in a set of KNS stainless NM pins on my last order (I don't really even know why I did but the man said "they'er on sale for $2.50", so I said "hell why not'?) Q: They don't fit! Some one have an answer for that? Hm, maybe that's why they were on sale? Do'h!



They are made in different diameters for either mil-spec small hole or Colt commercial large-hole. How are yours not fitting?
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:08:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 928M4:
Originally Posted By Krylancelo:

It's funny, no one blinks an eye at $500 flashlights, $200 front folding BUIS, $1000 plus scopes, etc...but it seems the "experts" go tits up about a $30 set of high(er) quality parts for one of the most important parts of the weapon, the trigger/hammer..seems odd to me???

Just trying to understand why those that have no experience with these widgets are so dead set against them. Personally I come here to ARFCOM to learn and share experiences with others, but I prefer to learn from opinions based on actual experience and not just "opinions".



I somewhat agree with your post...

Except, I can see the utility of having a flashlight, I understand the advantage of having a high quality robust RDS or optic,
I agree with those who recommend BUIS for when the optic fails,
I have not yet seen the utility of hammering oversized pins into my brand new, unworn, lower receiver.

The fact that the pins are cheap, is immaterial. "They only cost $35, so why not?".

I would like to see reports from people who have worn pin holes from their pins rotating.
As you said, "this is a technical forum".
Most posts seem to be from people who have already installed the pins and are tying to prove
how smart they are for having done so.




Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:25:59 PM EDT
It's common consensus, from a non-.223 perspective, that 9mm and 22lr conversions are blow back operated instead of direct impingement and that these tend to be a bit more rough on an AR's internals. The stainless steel KNS pins are made harder than the usual pins in a standard LPK so, if you are going to run one of these conversion, KNS pins do have a place.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:28:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 12:30:27 PM EDT by pun]
Like I said KNS makes non rotational pins that dont require screws so in the field they can still be pushed out without special tools.The funny thing is the oversized pins .1555 dont fit the trigger,hammer or disconector holes snug only the lowers holes..I will say though the FCG parts on those pins have no movement at all even though they dont fit the parts snug at all they go in fine.Oh $6 a set.They also make standard .154 pins that are stainless and purpose machined one for the hammer and one for the trigger.So the trigger pin has a trench off to the side for the hammer spring and the hammer pin a trench down the middle there not like regualr machined pins that have the 2 trenches on each pin they are purpose machined.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 5:14:51 PM EDT
with the millions of M4s anc M16 out there,never heard of pins walking out
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 6:39:54 PM EDT
I got a set of pins I don't know that I would call them anti-walk but the are a not longer have a flange one one side and you can put an e clip on the other I only paid 5 $ for them from young mfg.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:38:27 AM EDT
I got them as insurance. I want my lower to last as long as possible in case there is another ban. My 10/22 has enlarged holes from years of plinking and I don't want to see the same thing to happen with my AR.
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