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Posted: 8/15/2005 12:52:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 12:53:29 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 1:57:27 PM EDT
thats nice!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:05:16 PM EDT
I won't use anything less than 20" in 5.56 because of frag ranges and penetration issues. I'm considering a .308 for a 16" because there's plenty of power for penetration and the use of expansion type bullets are not as velocity sensitive. Though I'll most likely build another 20" 5.56 because of the mag hassle and expense with .308's.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:15:18 PM EDT
Hehe, 20's are cool.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:20:43 PM EDT
That's odd, I recall reading somewhere that the 24" barrel was the optimal length for a .223 barrel with a 1in9 twist.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:34:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HP40:
I won't use anything less than 20" in 5.56 because of frag ranges and penetration issues. I'm considering a .308 for a 16" because there's plenty of power for penetration and the use of expansion type bullets are not as velocity sensitive. Though I'll most likely build another 20" 5.56 because of the mag hassle and expense with .308's.



What specific issues are you having with under 20" barrels that are being addressed with the 20" barrel?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:59:29 PM EDT
Thats what I'm building next! I'm glad it looks so good
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:05:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
thats nice!



+1, seriously NICE!

Danny
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:06:12 PM EDT
That's a beauty!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:04:06 PM EDT
What specific issues are you having with under 20" barrels that are being addressed with the 20" barrel?


5.56 is very dependent on high velocity to fragment in tissue or penetrate mild steel. I use a 20" barrel simply to take advantage of the extra velocity it provides regardless of how marginal some may feel it is. A 20" with an A-1 stock feels right and doesn't seem at all unweildy. The comprimise of a shorter barrel for the sake of manuveralbility in tight quarters isn't worth the sacrifice of impact velocity of rnds. fired. If I had to choose between an A-2 with H-bar or 16" M-4 configured I choose the 16". Building my own allowed me use a gov profile barrel and A-1 stock wich I prefer over both of the above with out reducing velocity.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:13:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 7:14:17 PM EDT by SSeric02]
That is a one sexy rifle. Maybe one of these days when I have a little more disposable income...

ETA: Which free-floated fore-end is that?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:19:44 PM EDT
DD 12.0
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:35:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HP40:
What specific issues are you having with under 20" barrels that are being addressed with the 20" barrel?


5.56 is very dependent on high velocity to fragment in tissue or penetrate mild steel. I use a 20" barrel simply to take advantage of the extra velocity it provides regardless of how marginal some may feel it is. A 20" with an A-1 stock feels right and doesn't seem at all unweildy. The comprimise of a shorter barrel for the sake of manuveralbility in tight quarters isn't worth the sacrifice of impact velocity of rnds. fired. If I had to choose between an A-2 with H-bar or 16" M-4 configured I choose the 16". Building my own allowed me use a gov profile barrel and A-1 stock wich I prefer over both of the above with out reducing velocity.



So you dont actually have any "issues" that it solves?

In my mind there is no need for a barrel over 16" in 5.56 like the thread was titled but thought you might have a different perspective. I cant even come up with a reason to run over 18" on a .308 myself. No use for the added velocity.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:44:52 PM EDT
<300m = 5.56 = 16"

>300m= 7.62 = 20"
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:15:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
<300m = 5.56 = 16"

>300m= 7.62 = 20"



Doesn't 55gr 5.56 ammo only fragment out to less than half that distance?

20" will give you more fragmenting range because of the increase velocity...........nevermind. We've all heard these arguments before.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:54:05 PM EDT
This may sound ignorant so please correct me. Who cares about fragmenting this or that when all they do is shoot paper? And even if you were concerned about fragmentation, because of the always inherent risk of human eating zombies showing up at your door, doesn't the energy and velocity of the bullet alone do enough damage to even be concerned with it fragmenting or not?

I just can't think of a situation where a civie needs to be concerned with fragmenting their target, I mean jeez a semi auto rifle isn't powerful enough that you have to worry about the bullet exploding once it enters the zombie? Thats why we have 30 round mags folks, incase a single 5.56 round entering this said zombie doesn't put it down.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:06:24 PM EDT
Personally a 16 in barrel will get my hollow points to expand just fine. 55 grain tnt . If I needed better penetration I use barnes 53 grain hp. If I am hunting game or useing for self defense why would I use a fmj? Just my 2 cents.
-sigadvantage-
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:40:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By johndoexu:
This may sound ignorant so please correct me. Who cares about fragmenting this or that when all they do is shoot paper? And even if you were concerned about fragmentation, because of the always inherent risk of human eating zombies showing up at your door, doesn't the energy and velocity of the bullet alone do enough damage to even be concerned with it fragmenting or not?

I just can't think of a situation where a civie needs to be concerned with fragmenting their target, I mean jeez a semi auto rifle isn't powerful enough that you have to worry about the bullet exploding once it enters the zombie? Thats why we have 30 round mags folks, incase a single 5.56 round entering this said zombie doesn't put it down.



That fragmenting bullet does alot more damage than one that doesn't fragment (and does a through and through). This isn't an issue for someone who only shoots targets, and would NEVER shoot a live target, be it foreign invader, terrorist, criminal, etc. It's got nothing to do with "zombies".

Kinda like the difference in "stopping power" between a 9mm FMJ and a Ranger JHP. The FMJ MAY stop the guy, but it has a fairly mediocre track record as compared to the Ranger JHP. Note that "Stopping power" is far different than "killing power". A .22LR has plenty of killing potential, but tends to be a lousy stopper.

It's also kinda defeats the purpose of having to shoot the bad guy 3-4 times with a non-fragmenting round to get him to stop, versus one or two that fragment. You get some dude all hopped up on drugs, or some religious zealot (I'm sure they see this alot in Iraq), and you want him to stop ASAP; not bleed out due to non-fragmenting hits. Meanwhile he's still shooting at you because your rounds didn't take him out of the fight fast enough.


Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:40:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By johndoexu:
This may sound ignorant so please correct me. Who cares about fragmenting this or that when all they do is shoot paper? And even if you were concerned about fragmentation, because of the always inherent risk of human eating zombies showing up at your door, doesn't the energy and velocity of the bullet alone do enough damage to even be concerned with it fragmenting or not?

I just can't think of a situation where a civie needs to be concerned with fragmenting their target, I mean jeez a semi auto rifle isn't powerful enough that you have to worry about the bullet exploding once it enters the zombie? Thats why we have 30 round mags folks, incase a single 5.56 round entering this said zombie doesn't put it down.





SHUT UP ALREADY. ARE YOU A FUCKING LIBERAL OR WHAT? TELL ME YOU DON'T CARRY HP'S IN YOUR PISTOL,,,,,
GEEZE, SOME PEOPLES OFFSPRING.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:22:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_h:

Originally Posted By johndoexu:
This may sound ignorant so please correct me. Who cares about fragmenting this or that when all they do is shoot paper? And even if you were concerned about fragmentation, because of the always inherent risk of human eating zombies showing up at your door, doesn't the energy and velocity of the bullet alone do enough damage to even be concerned with it fragmenting or not?

I just can't think of a situation where a civie needs to be concerned with fragmenting their target, I mean jeez a semi auto rifle isn't powerful enough that you have to worry about the bullet exploding once it enters the zombie? Thats why we have 30 round mags folks, incase a single 5.56 round entering this said zombie doesn't put it down.





SHUT UP ALREADY. ARE YOU A FUCKING LIBERAL OR WHAT? TELL ME YOU DON'T CARRY HP'S IN YOUR PISTOL,,,,,
GEEZE, SOME PEOPLES OFFSPRING.



Look don't get all pissy because I stated the truth that most of the people on here are concerned with fragmenting like they are shooting at iraqis or something. When your an armchair commando like yourself, I understand you will take offense to comments that question the sensibility of your armchair commando tactical skills.

And yeah, the last time I checked you didn't own this website, so I can state my opinion as I please. Your post that I quoted makes you look 16, or are you 30 and bullied in high school?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:25:23 AM EDT

Originally posted by BigBore:
No point to a 5.56mm barrel longer than 16"...



I saw you post that somewhere else, and it struck me. I'm inclined to agree FWIW.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:39:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 9:41:41 AM EDT by EternalVigilance]
if you are worried about fragmentation range then use HPs. HPs will expand reliably at greater distance. The way I see it though, 150 yards of good fragmentation range out of my 16 inch is sufficient. If someone is more than 150 yards away then you've probably got a lot more time as far as bleed out and additional shots. My concern is that if someone is shooting at me from under say 75 yards, I want them incapacitated NOW. Hence I use M193 as oppossed to HPs.


And as far as 7.62, yes it is not nearly as velocity dependent as 5.56 for penetration. This is the same concept behind M855 as oppossed to M193. But 7.62 doesn't fragement unless you are lucky enough to get your hands on a no longer produced German 7.62 round.

Also, above is why I have more M193 than M855, because my biggest concern is within 100 yards. I want them to stop NOW! and its not like M193 is a BB gun or anything past fragementation range.



ETA:

oh, and yeah, for an all around self-defense weapon I prefer 16". But if you are trying to build a rifle primarily for maximum accuracy at maximum range then a longer barrell is better. Not that a 16 inch can't be pretty accurate a long way, but with the right ammo a 556 designed for long range engagement of prarie dogs or bad guys can put a hurtin on something very far away.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:58:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
if you are worried about fragmentation range then use HPs. HPs will expand reliably at greater distance. The way I see it though, 150 yards of good fragmentation range out of my 16 inch is sufficient. If someone is more than 150 yards away then you've probably got a lot more time as far as bleed out and additional shots. My concern is that if someone is shooting at me from under say 75 yards, I want them incapacitated NOW. Hence I use M193 as oppossed to HPs.


And as far as 7.62, yes it is not nearly as velocity dependent as 5.56 for penetration. This is the same concept behind M855 as oppossed to M193. But 7.62 doesn't fragement unless you are lucky enough to get your hands on a no longer produced German 7.62 round.

Also, above is why I have more M193 than M855, because my biggest concern is within 100 yards. I want them to stop NOW! and its not like M193 is a BB gun or anything past fragementation range.



ETA:

oh, and yeah, for an all around self-defense weapon I prefer 16". But if you are trying to build a rifle primarily for maximum accuracy at maximum range then a longer barrell is better. Not that a 16 inch can't be pretty accurate a long way, but with the right ammo a 556 designed for long range engagement of prarie dogs or bad guys can put a hurtin on something very far away.



all very good points.... and remember no matter all the changes they've done to the "service" round that the U.S. forces use, the majority of wounds inflicted by 5.56 are just that... "wounds" not "kills". Yes, there are hits that will kill with a service round, but in combat to wound is to take out the foreign combatant and to make him a burden to his fellow soldiers. The farther away you can do that to an enemy soldier is better for you. Hence, USMC training still teaches marksmanship to 500 Meters, and yet the Army teaches to a maximum of what 250? Not a slam at the soldier-boys, they usually have more people on the battlefield at one time in one area... more firepower.

Civilain use, not gonna be long range unless prarie doggin it anyway, and most people like that don't use .223, or unless you are range shooting paper or similar targets.

Unless you live in a non-urbanized area (I border Detroit) you are not gonna do long range shooting against "bad guys". And I have yet to know of anyone who CCWs an AR-15 rifle anyway. So unless you are at home, you ain't gonna shoot it anyway. and defending your castle, unless you are on 20 acres, ain't gonna be long distance. Use what ever you are accurate with. At 100 yards or less, from a cover position if you can't put 2 or 3 rounds into center mass (be it M855, HP, or whatever) you might as well not even bother.

"One shot, One kill" is great for true snipers, who are not gonna be close to their target, or even looks good on a t-shirt, but is not gonna protect you from the 12 who judge you.

Remember the court of public opinion is gonna be led by anti-gunners, the man who defends himself with the "old hunting rifle" did what he did to "protect himself"... the guy with the custom AR-15 "Assault Weapon" with laser scope and "assasin's bullets" was waiting to kill someone.

This of course coming from the guy who keeps rubber buckshot in his 12 gauge so that it doesn't overpenetrate walls. Cause I was thinking of my neighbor's welfare if I ever had to defend myself in my home.

No Expert

man, I gotta get a picture of my AR up here...
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:14:22 PM EDT
not to be off topic, but what does the 11.5" barrel give in results of fragmentation.

and is the M193 more dirty (clog up the rifle faster) than say plinking fmj ammo like winchester or blackhills?

thanks.

-mark
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:21:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johndoexu:

Originally Posted By mr_h:

Originally Posted By johndoexu:
This may sound ignorant so please correct me. Who cares about fragmenting this or that when all they do is shoot paper? And even if you were concerned about fragmentation, because of the always inherent risk of human eating zombies showing up at your door, doesn't the energy and velocity of the bullet alone do enough damage to even be concerned with it fragmenting or not?

I just can't think of a situation where a civie needs to be concerned with fragmenting their target, I mean jeez a semi auto rifle isn't powerful enough that you have to worry about the bullet exploding once it enters the zombie? Thats why we have 30 round mags folks, incase a single 5.56 round entering this said zombie doesn't put it down.





SHUT UP ALREADY. ARE YOU A FUCKING LIBERAL OR WHAT? TELL ME YOU DON'T CARRY HP'S IN YOUR PISTOL,,,,,
GEEZE, SOME PEOPLES OFFSPRING.



Look don't get all pissy because I stated the truth that most of the people on here are concerned with fragmenting like they are shooting at iraqis or something. When your an armchair commando like yourself, I understand you will take offense to comments that question the sensibility of your armchair commando tactical skills.

And yeah, the last time I checked you didn't own this website, so I can state my opinion as I please. Your post that I quoted makes you look 16, or are you 30 and bullied in high school?



While he was impolite about it, I agree with his premise.

I don't own my ARs to shoot at paper. I own them to shoot at people - but until I need to shoot at people, paper will do fine for practice.

If I just wanted to shoot a rifle at paper, I could've gotten away a lot cheaper and easier.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:32:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
if you are worried about fragmentation range then use HPs. HPs will expand reliably at greater distance. The way I see it though, 150 yards of good fragmentation range out of my 16 inch is sufficient. If someone is more than 150 yards away then you've probably got a lot more time as far as bleed out and additional shots. My concern is that if someone is shooting at me from under say 75 yards, I want them incapacitated NOW. Hence I use M193 as oppossed to HPs.


And as far as 7.62, yes it is not nearly as velocity dependent as 5.56 for penetration. This is the same concept behind M855 as oppossed to M193. But 7.62 doesn't fragement unless you are lucky enough to get your hands on a no longer produced German 7.62 round.

Also, above is why I have more M193 than M855, because my biggest concern is within 100 yards. I want them to stop NOW! and its not like M193 is a BB gun or anything past fragementation range.

ETA:

oh, and yeah, for an all around self-defense weapon I prefer 16". But if you are trying to build a rifle primarily for maximum accuracy at maximum range then a longer barrell is better. Not that a 16 inch can't be pretty accurate a long way, but with the right ammo a 556 designed for long range engagement of prarie dogs or bad guys can put a hurtin on something very far away.



POOR ADVICE. HP .223 ammo underpenetrates. If you want fragmenting 7.62 use 155 AMAX.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:36:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
if you are worried about fragmentation range then use HPs. HPs will expand reliably at greater distance. The way I see it though, 150 yards of good fragmentation range out of my 16 inch is sufficient. If someone is more than 150 yards away then you've probably got a lot more time as far as bleed out and additional shots. My concern is that if someone is shooting at me from under say 75 yards, I want them incapacitated NOW. Hence I use M193 as oppossed to HPs.


And as far as 7.62, yes it is not nearly as velocity dependent as 5.56 for penetration. This is the same concept behind M855 as oppossed to M193. But 7.62 doesn't fragement unless you are lucky enough to get your hands on a no longer produced German 7.62 round.

Also, above is why I have more M193 than M855, because my biggest concern is within 100 yards. I want them to stop NOW! and its not like M193 is a BB gun or anything past fragementation range.



ETA:

oh, and yeah, for an all around self-defense weapon I prefer 16". But if you are trying to build a rifle primarily for maximum accuracy at maximum range then a longer barrell is better. Not that a 16 inch can't be pretty accurate a long way, but with the right ammo a 556 designed for long range engagement of prarie dogs or bad guys can put a hurtin on something very far away.



all very good points.... and remember no matter all the changes they've done to the "service" round that the U.S. forces use, the majority of wounds inflicted by 5.56 are just that... "wounds" not "kills". Yes, there are hits that will kill with a service round, but in combat to wound is to take out the foreign combatant and to make him a burden to his fellow soldiers. The farther away you can do that to an enemy soldier is better for you. Hence, USMC training still teaches marksmanship to 500 Meters, and yet the Army teaches to a maximum of what 250? Not a slam at the soldier-boys, they usually have more people on the battlefield at one time in one area... more firepower.

Civilain use, not gonna be long range unless prarie doggin it anyway, and most people like that don't use .223, or unless you are range shooting paper or similar targets.

Unless you live in a non-urbanized area (I border Detroit) you are not gonna do long range shooting against "bad guys". And I have yet to know of anyone who CCWs an AR-15 rifle anyway. So unless you are at home, you ain't gonna shoot it anyway. and defending your castle, unless you are on 20 acres, ain't gonna be long distance. Use what ever you are accurate with. At 100 yards or less, from a cover position if you can't put 2 or 3 rounds into center mass (be it M855, HP, or whatever) you might as well not even bother.

"One shot, One kill" is great for true snipers, who are not gonna be close to their target, or even looks good on a t-shirt, but is not gonna protect you from the 12 who judge you.

Remember the court of public opinion is gonna be led by anti-gunners, the man who defends himself with the "old hunting rifle" did what he did to "protect himself"... the guy with the custom AR-15 "Assault Weapon" with laser scope and "assasin's bullets" was waiting to kill someone.

This of course coming from the guy who keeps rubber buckshot in his 12 gauge so that it doesn't overpenetrate walls. Cause I was thinking of my neighbor's welfare if I ever had to defend myself in my home.

No Expert

man, I gotta get a picture of my AR up here...



I keep an AR15 with me in my vehicle every day for personal defense. 100 yard cpabilites are nice but I need 50 yard capabilities for sure. I would be more likely to use my rifle in a parking lot than at home. Saying people wont use an AR for defense outside the home is not quite true.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:02:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 2:03:27 PM EDT by billclo]

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
not to be off topic, but what does the 11.5" barrel give in results of fragmentation.

and is the M193 more dirty (clog up the rifle faster) than say plinking fmj ammo like winchester or blackhills?

thanks.

-mark



If you'll check here, you'll get alot of info...www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

Basically you give up a TON of fragmentation range for having an 11.5 barrel...typical frag range with M193 ammo: 40-45meter, 90-100m for 14.5" and 125m for a 16"... with M855 ammo it's much worse: 12-15m for a 11.5" , 45-50m for a 14.5" , 90-95m for a 16"

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:49:54 PM EDT
What is the frag range on an 11.5" with 75 grain SAAMI ammo?
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 3:58:04 PM EDT
Probably dumb question, but if framenting bullets incapacitate faster, why are hunting bullets made to stay together.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:48:33 PM EDT
Becuase fragmenting bullets destroy the meat. Also large game animals are thick and require deeper than 12" penetration. For varmints where you dont need penetration nor meat they use ballistic tips. Balisitc tips are excellent for use on humans... problem is with a bullet as small as .223 it will underpenetrate due to low mass, fragmenting match rounds penetrate a few inches THEN fragment so they reach the mandated 12" FBI minimum for penetration.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:00:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

I keep an AR15 with me in my vehicle every day for personal defense. 100 yard cpabilites are nice but I need 50 yard capabilities for sure. I would be more likely to use my rifle in a parking lot than at home. Saying people wont use an AR for defense outside the home is not quite true.



Okay, you are in Texas.... the only state known to allow loaded firearms in passenger areas along with open alcohol.... but I think they did finally change that with regard to the open container.

I understand the vehicle use, but it's not like you are walking around with it on your shoulder doing your shopping at the grocery store.

I was speaking of the difference in use between someone in "wide-open" territory and urban dwellers such as myself.

Your "outside the home" could be on 20+ acres, mine is on a 44x100' plot.

No Expert
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:05:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Becuase fragmenting bullets destroy the meat. Also large game animals are thick and require deeper than 12" penetration. For varmints where you dont need penetration nor meat they use ballistic tips. Balisitc tips are excellent for use on humans... problem is with a bullet as small as .223 it will underpenetrate due to low mass, fragmenting match rounds penetrate a few inches THEN fragment so they reach the mandated 12" FBI minimum for penetration.



Excellently stated! Also, let's not forget when shooting deer (or other game) you want to drop it where it is if you can so that you don't chase it for 1/2 mile cause you put a round in the gut and not heart. Course most people would not shoot game with a round designed to wound humans.

Anybody go deer hunting and don't care about the rack just shoot it in the head???

No Expert
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:07:48 PM EDT
I would want a 22" barrel for a .308. Amazing what a couple inches can do for keeping the blast away from your ears and face. A 16" .308, for fucks sake, talk about the concusion!

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:29:26 PM EDT
Gargoyle, ever shot one to back up that statement? I have and its not bad at all. Then again I make it a habbit not to stand in front of a my M1A's when they are being fired...

Steve
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:57:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:29:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:31:55 PM EDT by Gargoyle]

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Gargoyle:
I would want a 22" barrel for a .308. Amazing what a couple inches can do for keeping the blast away from your ears and face. A 16" .308, for fucks sake, talk about the concusion!



Are you talking about a .308 with a muzzle brake? I'v ebeen around many 16" .308 with flash hiders and they arent uncomfortable at all.



No kidding! From my experience, shooting anything with a shorter barrel increases the amount of ringing in the ears. I can especially tell a just noticeable difference when firing shorter barreled rifles without hearing protection like one might do in the field or on a hunt. That is why I like my 23" VEPR .308 so much (that I bought from your ADCO store). It gets the blast a little firther out for my tastes.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:49:40 PM EDT
I really like shooting my dad's SOCOM 16. Yeah it's a hell of a lot louder than my M4 but that's what makes it cool! That being said, I don't think it's that much louder than a 22"- sure shakes the hell out of the spotting scope thoughI have to do the-"hang on let me find the target" thing over and over!
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:21:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:42:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HP40:
I won't use anything less than 20" in 5.56 because of frag ranges and penetration issues. I'm considering a .308 for a 16" because there's plenty of power for penetration and the use of expansion type bullets are not as velocity sensitive. Though I'll most likely build another 20" 5.56 because of the mag hassle and expense with .308's.



I don't understand. How far out do you expect to be engaging targets where fragmentation is an important factor?
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:53:55 PM EDT

Worried about the frag gap between 16" and 20" - shoot the fucker twice - or buy Mk262 and STFU




Somehow I don't think Kevin is a typical Canadian...
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:12:16 AM EDT
So you would suggest not getting a 20" upper and instead get a 16" upper for scoped/long range work?
Reason why I ask is I am building a 20" A3 with a good scope for ranges between 150 and 300 yds.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:15:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Worried about the frag gap between 16" and 20" - shoot the fucker twice - or buy Mk262 and STFU




Somehow I don't think Kevin is a typical Canadian...




It wouldnt matter where he's from, he knows what he's talking about.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:16:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:43:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 10:24:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By RABIDFOX50:
So you would suggest not getting a 20" upper and instead get a 16" upper for scoped/long range work?
Reason why I ask is I am building a 20" A3 with a good scope for ranges between 150 and 300 yds.



300yds is nothing, 16" will work just fine.



Cool. I guess 16" it is...with a DD 12.0 rail, and a Krink FS.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 10:25:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/runaway.gif

Oh, and 16's or under for me.



Love that smiley!!!



What's the Smiley supposed to represent?

Someone obsessing and panicing over, say, the difference between a 16" and 20" barrel?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:13:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:

Worried about the frag gap between 16" and 20" - shoot the fucker twice - or buy Mk262 and STFU




Somehow I don't think Kevin is a typical Canadian...




It wouldnt matter where he's from, he knows what he's talking about.



I don't think anyone is questioning his creds....just those of most of his countrymen.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:28:45 AM EDT
Okay me being a civi'.....If i engage "target" past around 30ft or so I am probably not going to like my trial. If I engage one at about 150yds then I am REALLY not going to like my trial. There are a few exciptions to this but those are limited to VARY rare zombie incedents. So for combat of any kind I agree(FWIW) that the 16" is optimal. I think that you loose/gain around 50fps per inch on average. I have a 20" because I coyote hunt alot and enjoy not having to hold over as much. When shooting paper and 'yotes 200fps makes a big diff at 4-600yds. I will be building a 16" soon though. As for the noise of a shorter barrell?? If they have a flash hider of any kind on any length barrell and you sit beside them you will hear the diff. I havnt shot a shorty without a flash hider so I dont know how that affects the gun noise but really the noise levels dont change that much with barrell length it is just closer to you or directed more towards you because of the flash hider. My .02

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:39:02 AM EDT
Personally I see the 20 inch guns as a waste. The 223 is really a cqb weapon its not at its best at long range so why try. Stick with 14 to 16 inch barrels and use it for what it was meant to do. If you want a battle rifle get a 308.
Pat
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