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Posted: 1/29/2011 4:55:11 PM EDT
The new S&W 15 sport is, I think, built to get the price as low as possible. Maybe that sells. But it has no forward bolt assist. So if the bolt doesn't go all the way forward, how do you solve that problem?

I had an Armalite 180B several years ago. Almost once per magazine the bolt didn't go all the way forward. Prying that darn thing over with a screw drives was a real pain.

There has got to be a better way.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:01:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 5:03:11 PM EDT by a308garand]
1) Insert finger into the open ejection port, press forward on the bolt group. The dished out area of the bolt carrier can be pressed forward with your finger.

2) Rack the action to cycle a fresh round of ammo into the chamber. This gets rid of the round that was not chambered- either it was too large/deformed/debris,etc...whatever the reason, you just get it out to present a new cartridge into the chamber.

#2 works best, but you waste rounds. If the rifle is not chambering fresh rounds, it has something wrong or needs more lube. Gotta figure out what needs the attention if your rifle doesn't want to run.........That's why the fighting rifle should still have a forward assist
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:05:14 PM EDT
You shouldnt have that problem on a quality AR..the forward assist is useless if a round wont chamber having a mechanism that forces the round can be very bad.The forward assist was for back in the day when there was no chromelined anything and maintinence or knowledge of needs and demands for the rifle were neglected to be taught.If a round wont chamber do whats done on every other battle rifle..manualy eject and rechamber a fresh round.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:11:27 PM EDT
I thought the FA was added because the military was using shi* powder and the rifles were in some of the poorest conditions possible, that the cartridge had to be rammed into the chamber often enough to require the addition. I doubt that unless you ran dirty ammo without cleaning for an extended period of time, it shouldn't be a problem.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:13:59 PM EDT
The FA is unnecessary.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:14:02 PM EDT
DPMS has made a version without a forward assist and ejection port cover for years. I only use the forward assist as a final check to ensure the bolt is fully in battery after loading. I agree with the previous posters––don't forced an oversized round into the chamber.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:16:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nightshade1:
I thought the FA was added because the military was using shi* powder and the rifles were in some of the poorest conditions possible, that the cartridge had to be rammed into the chamber often enough to require the addition.



If you do that you will just create a much more serious malfunction. Forward assist is an aid to administrative handling only, and is generally recognized as either a convenience feature or else just superfluous.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:27:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Originally Posted By nightshade1:
I thought the FA was added because the military was using shi* powder and the rifles were in some of the poorest conditions possible, that the cartridge had to be rammed into the chamber often enough to require the addition.



If you do that you will just create a much more serious malfunction. Forward assist is an aid to administrative handling only, and is generally recognized as either a convenience feature or else just superfluous.

Amazing, what people think.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:27:59 PM EDT
I have never used the forward assist. If I ever had a round not fully chamber I ususally found it was due to an issue with the ammo, or a problem with the gun that should be addressed rather than forcing the round in.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:33:17 PM EDT
It's for use during a press check.
Also better to have and not need than not have at all.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:36:05 PM EDT
Stoner fought the foward assist for the reasons above. He felt the bolt should never be forced. The original design did not have one. The Army made him add it.

And the design called for chrome chambers.....
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:38:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crowdlg:
It's for use during a press check.
Also better to have and not need than not have at all.

+1
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:54:33 PM EDT


The one time I used my FA to fully close the bolt, it just firmly crimped a blown primer onto one of the bolt lugs

Moral of the story: if your bolt won't close, there's probably a reason. Smashing it closed is not a good solution. The only time I'll ever use it again is to quietly chamber a first round when hunting or something.


Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:10:25 PM EDT
We were trained in Basic to always hit the FA 3 times after chambering a round. I never needed to, I just did it out of habit. Last year, after chambering a round, my bolt didn't go all the way forward. Out of habit I hit the FA 3 times with the heel of my hand. All I succeeded in doing was driving the messed up case so far into the chamber that I had to use a BIG screwdriver through the magwell and pry the bolt back to get the round ejected. Instead of just pulling back on the charging handle and chambering a new round, I caused a bigger malfunction that took the rifle out of service. I just redid the rifle with a Colt slickside upper, no more of that problem.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:13:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:


The one time I used my FA to fully close the bolt, it just firmly crimped a blown primer onto one of the bolt lugs

Moral of the story: if your bolt won't close, there's probably a reason. Smashing it closed is not a good solution. The only time I'll ever use it again is to quietly chamber a first round when hunting or something.




This. It is good for more-or-less quietly chambering a round.
If you really get to rapping on the FA, I 'spect that you could chamber a .308....
Moon
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 6:14:15 PM EDT by pun]
I wish some one would make M4 ramped flat tops with no forward assist..M4 marked...BCM please
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:50:24 PM EDT
Neither Pat Rogers or Clint Smith advocate EVER using the Forward Jammer! As was pointed out Eugene Stoner didn't want it either. The opinion of those three people is good enough for me!

I do NOT have one on my Duty Carbine.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:00:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pun:
I wish some one would make M4 ramped flat tops with no forward assist..M4 marked...BCM please


Maybe S&W will sell those slickside flattop uppers separately? IIRC, someone made some awhile ago but I think they ran out of business.

Linking with the OP's topic, how can S&W sell those carbines for just $700 MSRP? Surely lack of the FA, a different rear sight, and no M4 cut on the barrel aren't worth $300-400 over their basic M4gery.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:08:40 PM EDT
They have a thinner margin on them.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 9:05:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By karlb:
We were trained in Basic to always hit the FA 3 times after chambering a round. I never needed to, I just did it out of habit. Last year, after chambering a round, my bolt didn't go all the way forward. Out of habit I hit the FA 3 times with the heel of my hand. All I succeeded in doing was driving the messed up case so far into the chamber that I had to use a BIG screwdriver through the magwell and pry the bolt back to get the round ejected. Instead of just pulling back on the charging handle and chambering a new round, I caused a bigger malfunction that took the rifle out of service. I just redid the rifle with a Colt slickside upper, no more of that problem.

DS's were FUBAR. Hopefuly no one paid for it

Link Posted: 1/29/2011 9:13:21 PM EDT
I know Les Baer sold upper's with no froward assist but with a shell deflector. Unfortunately their online web store is a PITA to browse through.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 9:54:17 PM EDT
Not to hijack, but has anyone seen any of these Smith's actually for sale yet?
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 11:59:37 PM EDT
I have yet to see a malfunction that using the forward assist did not make worse.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:43:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nightshade1:
Originally Posted By pun:
I wish some one would make M4 ramped flat tops with no forward assist..M4 marked...BCM please


Maybe S&W will sell those slickside flattop uppers separately? IIRC, someone made some awhile ago but I think they ran out of business.

Linking with the OP's topic, how can S&W sell those carbines for just $700 MSRP? Surely lack of the FA, a different rear sight, and no M4 cut on the barrel aren't worth $300-400 over their basic M4gery.


That is a really good question! Anyone know the anser?

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 8:21:43 AM EDT
I just picked up my (first) LAR this month. The sales guy went over everthing and when he came to the FA he said that in combat when TSHTF it probably had a purpose, but as a civilian –– don't ever use it. Basic logic dictates that something went wrong –– don't make it worse.

It makes snse to me.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 9:00:45 AM EDT
Contact ADCO they can drill a gas tube hole in a 9mm upper and that won't have a forward assist.

The forward assist can be used to jam the hell out of your rifle as mentioned in the other posts.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 9:24:44 AM EDT
buy a colt.......come on no one said this yet, you guys are letting me down
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 9:37:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By klw:
That is a really good question! Anyone know the anser?


They are selling based on cost, not on features, so in order to sell them they have to narrow their margins. It opens up new markets without taking away from sales to their top end line.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 12:11:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
I have yet to see a malfunction that using the forward assist did not make worse.


LOL, that was my experience the first and only time I've ever seen one used.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:07:34 PM EDT
trust me if your rifles dirty enough it will come in handy but I doubt most of the safe queens will ever need it
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:10:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marine03:
trust me if your rifles dirty enough it will come in handy but I doubt most of the safe queens will ever need it


Really? Are you familiar with the Filthy 14?
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:23:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marine03:

trust me if your rifles dirty enough it will come in handy


Not to kick an hornets nest...

But could you please relate your experiences with using a dirty AR and the FA? I would think that the former would operationally negate the latter. Truly wonderin'...

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:31:53 PM EDT
DPMS Link

I plan on using one for a .22 build.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:35:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GulfCrow:
Originally Posted By marine03:

trust me if your rifles dirty enough it will come in handy


Not to kick an hornets nest...

But could you please relate your experiences with using a dirty AR and the FA? I would think that the former would operationally negate the latter. Truly wonderin'...



Agreed. Useless. Never had my rifle "dirty" enough to need it. Nor Uncle Sugars rifles. I think once or twice with BFA firing blanks in hot weather in the sand, but that by no means indicates any real world need. I still could have used the depression in the BCG.

As for the silently chambering a round, or after a press check, that depression > the FA for those applications as well.

With the recent resurgence in lightweight carbines, and people no longer concerned about mimicking the looks of the M4 as much, look for more non FA uppers and BCG's from good vendors in the future. I have nothing to back that up, but it is a logical next step.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 3:03:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Axlnut:

Agreed. Useless.


Well, shit! There goes my attempt at being diplomatic...

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:26:34 PM EDT
Im telling ya some one starts making no FA M4 ramped flat tops..im in for 4 right off the bat.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:34:56 PM EDT
Many moons ago while in basic ('81) I was tasked with working as an OPFOR for an assault course. I carried my M16, and two ammo cans of blanks. I neglected any CLP (rookie mistake). I fired two complete ammo cans w/o lube. Eventually I had to use the FA for the first round of the magazine. Needless to say I have NEVER gotten THAT dirty again. Other than that one time I have never found it necessary to use the FA. I have had OOB discharges with my .22 though, but that is a whole different issue.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:46:13 PM EDT
the only times i use the forward assist is when hunting and thats justbecause im trying to be quiet. in 8 years of service i never used it once.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:47:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 5:48:58 PM EDT by jfwyatt1]
double click my badd!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:06:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pun:
Im telling ya some one starts making no FA M4 ramped flat tops..im in for 4 right off the bat.


How much would you pay for them? Serious question, as I have several questions out with manufacturers about doing a run of these for me.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:26:01 PM EDT
Les Baer has stripped flattop uppers without FA for $112. There is a picture on this PAGE. It doesn't say if it has M4 ramps or not (probably not).
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:54:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By pun:
Im telling ya some one starts making no FA M4 ramped flat tops..im in for 4 right off the bat.


How much would you pay for them? Serious question, as I have several questions out with manufacturers about doing a run of these for me.


For what would be an otherwise basic, mil-spec upper, similar to a Spikes, BCM, DD, whatever, with a BCG built to the same standard, from one of the same companies, so otherwise mil-spec, in materials and testing, just no FA notches,
I would be willing to pay the same price as one with the FA and notches. If they make volume, I promise they will sell volume, so I see no reason to pay an inflated price tag for, less material, fewer parts, and less machining.

I don't need one bad enough to pay more. If the price was that inflated, I would buy a MUR, one of the new CMMG modular uppers, or just let the FA hang off the side doing nothing like I have been doing all these years.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:54:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 6:59:55 PM EDT by Axlnut]
edit: double tap.

So I'll use the space to hop on my soapbox about companies like Les Baer when it comes to AR's.

Just finished a no-nonsense patrol rifle upper for a friend, and I wanted to go none FA M4. Could not find such an animal in a forged receiver anywhere but LBC. While LBC's 1911s are top grade, and I can assume his AR's are well put together, there is a lack of understanding from companies such as them when they get into this market.

We are informed consumers, who demand certain minutia of detail from our purchases. To sell say a stripped upper to us via the web, please include such information in your listing as, T-Marks, M4 ramps, type of finish etc.

They did not, so the upper was instead based off of a Spikes stripped upper.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:55:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2011 7:01:18 PM EDT by Axlnut]
2nd Edit

Shit; apparently was a triple tap...

Might want to take this keyboard to a keyboard smith before the ATF comes a knockin...
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 6:59:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
You shouldnt have that problem on a quality AR..the forward assist is useless if a round wont chamber having a mechanism that forces the round can be very bad.The forward assist was for back in the day when there was no chromelined anything and maintinence or knowledge of needs and demands for the rifle were neglected to be taught.If a round wont chamber do whats done on every other battle rifle..manualy eject and rechamber a fresh round.

+1
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 7:31:43 PM EDT
I think FA look cool, but thats as far as my affection with them goes. I have never used it other than to demonstrate its purpose to a newb.

If a round doesnt feed naturally, you dont want it to... something is wrong. better to throw $.20 away than to kb your rifle.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 7:48:07 PM EDT
Forward asist just another moving part to jam up or break down...its an uneeded assembly it should be banished from the TDP.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 10:21:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 8:52:13 AM EDT by AchNgnt]
Originally Posted By GulfCrow:
Originally Posted By marine03:

trust me if your rifles dirty enough it will come in handy


Not to kick an hornets nest...

But could you please relate your experiences with using a dirty AR and the FA? I would think that the former would operationally negate the latter. Truly wonderin'...



I have personally had an M16A2 in 2007 that was so filthy, so dirty, so filled with mud, that I could barely get the magazine in.

I opened the bolt, finger banged the chamber, magwell, and action as best I could, inserted the gritty, dirty mag, and sent the bolt home. Didn't go into battery. I re-charged the rifle, still failed to go into battery.

By this time it was a 2 way range and I jammed the forward assist about 5 times, and bang. After that first round I guess it blew all the shit loose and I had no issues after that for many many mags.

That rifle had been literally dragged in the mud for the previous 2 hours and there was no time to clean it. This was the last resort, and it worked. I know it worked, and I don't give a damn what anyone else on this forum says or thinks. They were not there. I know the armchair commandos will chime in with their opinions. But it worked. Period. It got the weapon back into the fight. Were there other variables that possibly caused it to function? I don't doubt it.

Before or since I have never had to use the FA. But that one time? I was damn sure glad it was there.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:09:05 AM EDT
Can't argue this. ^^^^^^

For a hunter/shooter at home, the FA is largely like an appendix, it's there until it becomes a problem. What it can do vs.the weight is up to the shooter. I am building an AR, the cost to delete it is more than the hassle to make it active. You get it with most uppers, and upper parts kits include it.

Instead of $$$ for a special upper without, it's cheaper even with the FA assembly. Volume makes that happen, non-FA is low production, mostly varmint and deer camo shooters. If there is a moral issue, it's about not spending more of MY money to actually get nothing. If it was a retro build, I'd shop a milsurp kit and get the original anyway. It would be milspec, authentic, and cheap.

For a weekender gun, much ado about nothing. Perfect internet topic, which the Army also invented. Kinda matches up.
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