A few days ago I had an Epiphany, a Revelation, a Vision, that led to a Catharsis.

It changed the game in a major way...

First a little background. A while back I handled a Wilson Combat 458 SOCOM. My first deer rifle was a Ruger Deerstalker in 44 Mag. I have done a lot of huntoing with 44 Mag rifles and handguns, and know how well they kill, out to 125 yards or so. I used an AR rifle as a work gun for over 23 years and loiked them. So I bought the 458, and the dealor had an extra Wilson Combat upper in 223, I bought it too.
My thoughts being I would use the 458 for deer and pigs, and use the 223 for varmints, and turkeys, while both of them could serve for protection if needed. I stay at my lease for 18 to 30 days at a time, most of it by myself.
Durring last years deer season I killed 2 deer, 4 pigs, a turkey, a bobcat, 3 coyotes with the SOCOM. Durring spring turkey season I killed a pig with the SOCOM, a turkey with the 223, 6 coyotes with the 223 upper. With the SOCOM I killed deer at 137 and 142  yards, and a big pig at 154 yards... System worked perfect. SO I figured a 6.8SPC would give me a good deer, pig gun tp @250/300 yards, or so.
So I ordered one.....
Then I went back to my buddies gunstore and handled a Christensen Arms CA-10 in 308. This is a 308 AR that weighs 7.3 lbs with its 18" barrel. I am a BIG 308 FREEK. So here is a semiauto 308, that weighs the same as most 223AR's...      So I bought it.   I have shot it to 500 yards. It has been 100% reliable with 5 different factory loads, and my standard 308 reload. It has been very accurate. I want a few more shooting sessions with it before I do a report for AR15.COM, but it looks like a winner...

SO, because this 308 is the same weight at an AR15, in 6.8, and I have a bunch of 308 ammo, brass, and bullets, and that the 308 is a much more powerful hunting round, I have canceled my plan for a 6.8...

IF I went with a 6.8 I would have to get a BUNCH of ammo, bullets, cases, a different powder, different magazines, etc...  Well OK I did have to get some new mags for the CA-10...

Now I have no animosity toward the 6.8SPC. I think it is a good choice for a hunting round for the AR sized package. I do think the 458 SOCOM is much better inside 150 yards, it hits like the Hammer of Thor, but no doubt the 6.8 would be better from 200 to 300 yards. [Just for info the 458 SOCOM recoil is very mild].
The 6.8 upper would have made a great addition to my AR15 hunting package. But even thought now I must transport a whole rifle in 308, vs just an upper, the fact that I have all the 308 ammo I need, and the 308 can also be used on game bigger than I would use the 6.8 on, makes it the better choice for ME. Also it gives me 2 complete guns, vs only one gun, with 3 uppers on a trip to the lease...

Also I will take tthe 308 CA-10 on out of statehunting  trips, because it is a 308, that I would not have taken the 223/6.8/458 "system" on.

So instead of getting the 6.8, when I was visiting my buddies gun store they had a Wilcon Combat Recon Tactical with the new Billet upper and lower, so I took it home instead.

I will include it in my ongoing  ACOG shooting tests, and report on its results after a few firings.
When you have used an AR as long as I have the "Billet" gun looks "funny/weird"...

The more I handle it the "better" it looks. It is growing on me. Its action is very smooth. Typical Wilson Combat..

Thanks, more 6.8 goodness for me!

i just ordered some 308 parts to start a build also. I know the 6.8 is a heavy hitter but since i just made the jump to 308 from 223, i dont see the need to get a "middle" caliber to reload for now.

I've made a similar choice in that I sold off my 6.8 stuff (I've had a complete rifle, a PSA upper and a bunch of mags/ammo) since I bought my M&P10. My biggest problem with .308 ARs was size/weight and the M&P10 is much more manageable. I may still get a 6.8 SBR but I'll probably go .300 BLK instead for that.

I opted for the 6.8 over an AR10 due to weight and the fact I already had a 5.56 SBR. Swap uppers and mags and I'm good to go.

The new generation of 7.62 guns are a leap forward. The ammo is still to heavy for most things, but I could see myself having one.

I am interested in seeing your review.  I have always been interested in what kind of accuracy these barrels have.  If you don't mind me asking what price range is this rifle in?

Over the last couple years the .308 has come a long way when it comes to making the rifle lighter and more compact. With all the new .308 rifle that have hit the market weighing around 8 pounds like the POF P308, RRA Lar-8,  sig 716, bushmaster ORC, Kel-Tec 7.62, Scar 17 and many others that were not around when the 6.8 came out. These are not your fathers M1s or Fals. These are battle ready rifles that hold 20-25 rounds in a standard sized mag. The fact that the the 7.62X51 is a NATO round that just about every major army in the world has means that the ammo will be a lot cheaper, more diverse and available if anything were to happen.

When the 6.8 came out it was an improvement in some of the AR-15 capabilities giving a longer range and with a little more knock down power giving it an intermediate range between the 5.56 and the .308. But this came with a downside of not having a common bolts and limited magazine capacity. The bolt problem will mean the mainstream militaries will never pick it up as just the logistics of having multiple bolts that can be interchanged in the rifle and neither of them working for the other would cause logistical nightmares of even having one soldier die because the part he put in his rifle was not the one needed to operate it. The limited magazine capacity is why they moved to the 5.56 in the first place. Why have a soldier carry 8 magazines when he only has to carry 6 to get the same shot count out of a 5.56?

The 6.8 was derived to be a longer range rifle than the 5.56 and weigh less the the longer range .308. At the time this was true but now with accurate .308 semi auto weighing between 7 and 9 pounds I just can't see a need for a cartridge that only give a small improvement in range over the 5.56 while the .308 gives a lot of range and energy increase over the 5.56. For most combat operations the engagements are under 300 yards this make the 5.56 a great rifle for those ranges while if you are looking to go over 300 yards you are probably looking at ranges over 500 yards as in Afghanistan. This usually requires scoped weapons and the .308 is much more suited for those longer engagements than the 6.8. As a matter of fact a lot of the shooter over there are looking at even heavier hitting rifles like the 300 win mag, the 338 Lapua or of course the 50BMG.

For the military the 6.8 would fill an incredibly small niche as it has more weight and lower round count than the 5.56 and doesn't have near the range or penetration as the 7.62. For the consumer the 6.8 could fill a larger role for hunting but could easily be replaced by either the 5.56 or the newer/lighter .308 depending on what you wanted to do with it.

buffetdestroyer

I got mine in a trade, it was brand new, I think they list for around 32 to 3400 dollars. So far it has shot great, groups are from just under 1 moa to just over, I was shooting on one of those long bags, no rear bag.

I hope to go to the range with it and my ACOG testing tomorrow or the next day. Once I have enough time behind it I will start a seperate report thread for it. So far I really like it, so much that I have already ordered a second one...

8 6.8 30 round mags hanging off the front of my PC is far lighter then 6 round mags for my scar 17s

Guys, I am not saying anything negative about the 6.8. If I had not discovered the light weight Carbon Fiber barreled CA-10 I would still be getting the 6.8.

It is,  just for ME, I already have a bunch of 308 ammo "stuff",[ I have been using the 308 since @1975], and since my 308 AR is as light as many AR's in 223 or 6.8, I just do not see the reason to get a 6.8.

I have several other hunting rifles in 308, including a few Combo Guns, ie 308 rifle barrels and 20ga shotgun bble, so the CA 10, can shoot the exact ammo. Makes it much easier logistically for me.

Do not have to get new ammo, new cases, new powder, new bullets, new dies, new shellholder, etc.

I have a couple of buddies that are building 6.8's for our pig hunting adventures, so I will get to see how they do vs. the 308 first hand.

Yep. Dead stock, the M&P10 is 7.75 pounds.

It's a light rifle, ESPECIALLY for a .308.

You give up a lot with a 16" barreled .308 if yours is 16".

Comparing heavy loads.

Factory loads from my 16" DPMS

168gr FGMM velocity from my chronograph, was 2350fps and 2071ft/lbs energy at the muzzle.
My handloads for that weight matched it.

Heavy bullets for the 6.8 16" barrel is a 140gr Berger at 2401fps, with 1802ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

Both zeroed at 200 yards.

The .308 at 100 yards is 2167fps/1752ft/lbs    +3 inches  
The 6.8   at 100 yards is  2235fps/ 1552ft/lbs   + 3.5

200 yards .308  1987/1473   0
200 yards 6.8     2075/1338   0

300 yards  .308  1817/1231    -11.8
300 yards   68     1921/1147    -11.3

400 yards   .308  1657/1024    -34.1
400 yards   6.8     1776/980      -32.4

500 yards   .308   1509/849      -69.2
500 yards   6.8      1639/835     -64.9

600 yards   .308    1375/705     -119.5
600 yards    6.8      1510/709     -109.8

700 yards   .308    1258/590      -188.3
700 yards     6.8     1393/603      -170.0

800 yards   .308     1160/502       -279
800 yards    6.8       1289/516      -248.9

900 yards  .308       1084/438      -395.6   .308 is subsonic here.
900 yards   6.8         1198/446     -348.8   6.8 still supersonic

1000 yards .308   1025/391        -541.8
1000 yards  6.8     1123/392       -473.5  Still supersonic


Though the platform is not much heavier in the lightweight .308, the barrel length takes away a good portion of the advantage the .308 has with heavies. Starting at a 269ft/lbs advantage at the muzzle, 100 yards still significant 200ft/lbs, 200 yards it's down to 135lbs, it's only 84ft/lbs better at 300, and by 400 yards it's 44lbs, 500 yards , it's down to 14ft/lbs. At 600 yards the 6.8 passes it, but it stays tight out to 1000. In the energy department, the 16" .308 has a noticeable advantage out to 200, and a little bit of one at 300 and 400.

In the trajectory department the 6.8 is equal or better throughout the range. The windage is in favor technically of the 6.8 in this comparison as well, with a 1 inch difference at 500 yards, and 17 inches at 1000. Basically close enough numbers that they are about identical.

With that light weight and shorter barrel, you get a big difference in recoil and muzzle climb. You also get a total platform loaded out weight that is a good bit heavier in the .308 due to the ammo. That is worth a lb or so last I weighed them for the same amount of ammo. I only had 20 round mags for the .308 so that is what I went by. Obviously the more rounds, the better in favor of the 6.8. If you're gonna be carrying 7 or so mags, that adds up.


The 175gr ammo for the 16" barrel is worse. You just can't get the velocity for the 175s do make a difference, and even with the 168s you don't really win out overall.

Step down to a 155gr and there you will see a difference. That is a much better weight in a VLD or scenar bullet where you will get the velocity to make a difference with a higher BC to keep it moving. He standard 150gr loads start out pretty good, lots of energy and velocity, from 2600-2650fps, but die out real fast past 400 yards.

The 110s are around 2850fps, but don't have the weight behind them or the BC to push high energy numbers to make the recoil and muzzle rise of the .308 in a short barrel worth it to me.

I was in the process of switching to 155gr VLD type bullets entirely with mine, even though it was accurate with the 168s and 175s. It was the best solution. Less muzzle flip, quicker follow ups, better long range performance and great short to medium as well. Less weight in the mags too.

I switched over to the 6.8 because of a shoulder injury, not my firing shoulder either. But with the weight of that loaded up DPMS it was difficult with a bad shoulder to be consistent, and sometimes tough to get the gun up on target. The 6.8 solved that for me, and I didn't lose much in the energy department compared to the same barrel length. I went over the 6.8 and the 6.5G for over a year before I decided what route to take.

Now had my .308 been a light weight one like you have, I may never have made the switch. It's likely I wouldn't have since I had tons of brass, powder, primer, loaded ammo, projectiles, and factory and military ammo. A good brake would have made a difference as well but I wanted the flash hider more as this was my HD weapon and hunting was secondary.

If I buy another .308 it will be either 18" or 20", the 18" will sort of get you over the hump, but the 20" is better.

I'd love to have a light weight .308, but it won't replace the 6.8, it'll just be something else to have a blast with and something else to spend money on.

I just wanted to comment here to clear some things up. I'm sure it's a fine rifle, and will serve you well. I like all calibers pretty much, except some of the dinky Euro pistol ones. I'd like to have guns in just about any caliber.

I think maybe its just me but if im running a 308, its probably a safe bet its not for close quarters. Same reason i wouldnt use a 6.8 to reach out and touch something.

I built a 6.5 lb .308 AR (no sights).  I understand perfectly

The .308 with a 150gr bullet isn't  that bad for getting back on target, especially with a really good brake and aggressive stance. It's just for some reason, when you get to the heavies, it just seems to rise a lot more than you would think for just the difference in bullet weight. My M1As, FALs, and other full length guns weren't as bad with the heavy loads , I guess due to the longer barrel, and with the longer barrel, a ton more power and range.

I used my DPMS .308 for HD with 150gr bullets, and it wasn't too bad. Still at a disadvantage for quick followups compared to the AR15 platform intermediates.  I normally kept an Eotech on it, unless I was going to be shooting long range, and then I put on an Elite 6500 Bushnell.  



There's no doubt that the .308 is a more powerful round, especially in the right weight class for the barrel, but with the wrong weight, you lose a lot of the advantage of a longer barrel over the intermediate AR15 cartridges, and you have other trade offs as well. A lightweight rifle helps in that though.

Had there been a lightweight .308 when I switched over, I may have, and probably would have stayed with the .308, even in a 16" , but would have made sure to get a muzzle device that was more for control than flash. I think it would have worked out great  for the 155 class bullets especially. Supersonic past 1000 yards in a 16" barrel, and a lot of energy throughout, and a pretty big advantage over the intermediate AR15 calibers throughout.

I want another .308, just not sure if I want to go lightweight  AR10 type with it's ease of mounting accessories and inherent accuracy, or if I want to go back to the M1A in a NM or Loaded stainless like I had. I shot the M1A so much better, but mostly because I was  just raised on that sort of thing, so it's more natural. It would be a hard decision if I had the cash for either of them.

I think price should be an important factor. I bought a PSA 18" 6.8 upper for ~$400. Bought 5 mags or so for ~$100. Bought ~$400 worth of ammo.

So basically let's call it $1,000 to get into a starter 6.8 platform. How much are those .308 platforms going for? The Christensen is like $2,500 for the rifle....but with a 6.8 I can use the same lower I use for my 5.56. Plus, when I go hunting I also like to take a .22 upper and slap it on if I feel like shooting squirrels or something. I guess if you have the cash then .308 would of course perform the better, but is it enough to justify the huge extra expense.

If I was poor but wanted to hunt deer and pig better, I would just buy 5.56 TSX ammo or better ammo

If I was budget conscious I think .300 BO, 6.5 or 6.8 SPC provides a nice upgrade from 5.56 for hunting lethality/range

If I had an extended budget I would love to buy a nice AR in .308

I just sold my rock river a4 308 rifle . It shot great and functioned fine but where I live and for what I do it really didnt offer me any advantage over other weapons in my safe and was bigger and heavier than most . If I buy another 308 rifle it will more than likely be something like the savage hog rifle. At this time I have no need for a 6.8 or 6.5 grendel but more than likely when I get bored and start another build it will be one or the other for no other reason than , well I dont have one of them yet.