I spoke with a fellow at Nightforce about the 2.5-10x24mm. He said the FC-2 reticle was designed in conjunction with NSW "...to be used in CQB" That puzzled me at first, then I figured it was because he probably meant that at 2.5 mag with the reticle ON, you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I'm inclined to believe that he wasn't giving me a load of poop, he seemed to know his stuff.

Any 2.5-10 users out there to opine?

Otherwise, if so desired, you would need to add a pointsight for a CQB capability.


Thoughts on the matter?
<Note: the below pic is NOT being hijacked from CSGunworks>

Any lit reticle will work at any time BAC style if its bright enough to see in high noon daylight.  If you are interested in 1X and 4X as in the TA01NSN and DrOptic then consider the 1.1-4x24 Nightforce.  Its identical to the 2.5-10X but it is an ounce lighter and an inch shorter.  I called Nightforce yesterday and they said it would be available in about a month.

Quoted:... you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept"

I have a Nforce 2.5sx10 NPr2 reticle as well as a TA11 Donut. I love the 2.5 , and the BAC approach seems to work indoors, but there is not sufficient illumination to see RED outside in sunlight. Still a good scope and works fairly well CQB but not as good as TA11 donut as there is no BAC outside.

Quoted: Quoted:... you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I have a Nforce 2.5sx10 NPr2 reticle as well as a TA11 Donut. I love the 2.5 , and the BAC approach seems to work indoors, but there is not sufficient illumination to see RED outside in sunlight. Still a good scope and works fairly well CQB but not as good as TA11 donut as there is no BAC outside.

Thanks xyzzy45

So ACOGS with BAC ARE sufficantly illiuminated for outdoor use? I have the ACOG pictured (TA01NSN w/Dr Optics) so I wouldn't know about BAC.

The 2.5-10 is already purchased. One fact I forgot is since I'm using the CJ Accessories STRIKER RAS for my M1A, I can still use the IRON SIGHTS, so no piggy backed DR. Oprit is needed. The back-up is always ready!

Anyway, I'm still curious about using BAC with the Nightforce. So indoors YES, outdoors NO. Seems to make sense since the folks at Nightforce said the reticle was developed with the NSW just for that capability.

Others have stated the reticle is bright enough to see during the day.  Please let us know and post pics when you get the scope so we can see what the real answer is.

xyzzy45,

Can you post pics of the reticle pointed outside at full brightness to show us that it does not illuminate adequately?  I have heard the reticel had a problem of not being able to be turned down low enough at night and not that it was not bright enough during the day.  I have never owned a Nightforce scope so I would love to get some shots through it.

Quoted: So ACOGS with BAC ARE sufficantly illiuminated for outdoor use? I have the ACOG pictured (TA01NSN w/Dr Optics) so I wouldn't know about BAC.

Yes.  Since the primary source of illumination in the TA31/11 is the light pipe, it sort-of self-adjusts for brightness.  If it's sunny, the donut is incredibly bright.   If near dusk, it's dimmer.

-z

Agree - TA11 works fine in bright sunlight as sunlight drives the BAC illumination. What also really helps in the wide range of eye relief. I have timed myself on 1-round-each on three IPSC targets ranging from 2 to 4 yrs moving as fast as I can and found no difference between ACOG and irons (by no difference, I mean that using repeated measures design, irons were sometimes faster and sometimes slower and roughly same as difference between irons and ACOG).

Quoted: Quoted: So ACOGS with BAC ARE sufficantly illiuminated for outdoor use? I have the ACOG pictured (TA01NSN w/Dr Optics) so I wouldn't know about BAC. Yes.  Since the primary source of illumination in the TA31/11 is the light pipe, it sort-of self-adjusts for brightness.  If it's sunny, the donut is incredibly bright.   If near dusk, it's dimmer. -z

Thanks Z.

So what do you think? I know it's a great deal to ask of one system to be used for CQB AND medium ranges. I think the Nightforce's magnification ranges get as close as possible to giving a CQB capability, even if it's only indoors. If I didn't have the channel in the RAS to allow the Iron Sights to be used, I might consider going the "piggy-back" route. But it's NOT meant to be a dedicated CQB weapon. I just want the broadest capability as possible for my M1A.

The TA01NSN /DrOptic is on my 20" Fulton rifle.


Edited to add:

Thank you as well "X"

I think the FC-2 reticle was designed to give the broadest capability. The only thing left is training.

Quoted:...Can you post pics of the reticle pointed outside at full brightness to show us that it does not illuminate adequately?  ... .

I don't own a digial camera (I know, bad for a full blown code-hound type geek). But in noon bright sun, I was seeing the black cross hairs, not red with the scope set at max illumination setting. Without tuning off, Moved indoors and saw red, indicating that it was functioning correctly. Still worked great as a normal scope, but with black, not red cross hairs (NPR2). Fine for most Cooper-scout type problems (e.g., snap shots at 15 yards), but I might look over the scope at 4 yards, rather than throw it.

I will check again this afternoon and see what difference makes shadows v. full sun.

Quoted: Quoted:...Can you post pics of the reticle pointed outside at full brightness to show us that it does not illuminate adequately?  ... . I don't own a digial camera (I know, bad for a full blown code-hound type geek). But in noon bright sun, I was seeing the black cross hairs, not red with the scope set at max illumination setting. Without tuning off, Moved indoors and saw red, indicating that it was functioning correctly. Still worked great as a normal scope, but with black, not red cross hairs (NPR2). Fine for most Cooper-scout type problems (e.g., snap shots at 15 yards), but I might look over the scope at 4 yards, rather than throw it. I will check again this afternoon and see what difference makes shadows v. full sun.

X, which scope are you talking about? The Nightforce or the ACOG?

EDITED TO ADD:

I missed your post because I was poting at the same time! lol. I saw it, thanks.

Quoted: Quoted:... you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I have a Nforce 2.5sx10 NPr2 reticle as well as a TA11 Donut. I love the 2.5 , and the BAC approach seems to work indoors, but there is not sufficient illumination to see RED outside in sunlight. Still a good scope and works fairly well CQB but not as good as TA11 donut as there is no BAC outside.

Do you think the FC-2 might be different? Especially if it's entirely illuminated???

Quoted: So what do you think? I know it's a great deal to ask of one system to be used for CQB AND medium ranges. I think the Nightforce's magnification ranges get as close as possible to giving a CQB capability, even if it's only indoors. If I didn't have the channel in the RAS to allow the Iron Sights to be used, I might consider going the "piggy-back" route. But it's NOT meant to be a dedicated CQB weapon. I just want the broadest capability as possible for my M1A.

So, what's "medium" ranges?

In my mind, there are basically three ways to go:

1. Optimized for CQB.  Aimpoint/Eotech/Irons.

2. General-purpose for contact distance to about 350 yards.  Targets no smaller than about 10" square beyond 150.  TA11 ACOG.  This is almost as fast at close range as #1.

3. More precision than #2, but slower close-in.  This is for hitting things smaller than 10" from 150 yards to 500 yards.   You need a precise reticle, elevation knobs, and either useful windage holdoff marks or a windage knob.   A Leupold M1 or M/RT is the classic choice here.  I haven't tried the 2.5-10 NXS yet.

Remember that you ought to be able to point-shoot silhouettes to 25 yards easy, without sights.

Quoted: ..., which scope are you talking about? The Nightforce or the ACOG? .

nightforce.

Quoted: [.... Do you think the FC-2 might be different? Especially if it's entirely illuminated???

not really in bright sunlight, given that I am seeing black,not red.  As I mentioned above, I will try to get home a bit early this afternoon and try it out in sunlight and shadows.

Quoted: Quoted: So what do you think? I know it's a great deal to ask of one system to be used for CQB AND medium ranges. I think the Nightforce's magnification ranges get as close as possible to giving a CQB capability, even if it's only indoors. If I didn't have the channel in the RAS to allow the Iron Sights to be used, I might consider going the "piggy-back" route. But it's NOT meant to be a dedicated CQB weapon. I just want the broadest capability as possible for my M1A. So, what's "medium" ranges? In my mind, there are basically three ways to go: 1. Optimized for CQB.  Aimpoint/Eotech/Irons. 2. General-purpose for contact distance to about 350 yards.  Targets no smaller than about 10" square beyond 150.  TA11 ACOG.  This is almost as fast at close range as #1. 3. More precision than #2, but slower close-in.  This is for hitting things smaller than 10" from 150 yards to 500 yards.   You need a precise reticle, elevation knobs, and either useful windage holdoff marks or a windage knob.   A Leupold M1 or M/RT is the classic choice here.  I haven't tried the 2.5-10 NXS yet. Remember that you ought to be able to point-shoot silhouettes to 25 yards easy, without sights.

My criteria is as follows:

1) CQB

2) Long range, 500 plus yrds.

3) Less than 500, 300 yard range, what some consider the ranges of a "tactical" scope, like the 4x ACOGs, Leupold CQ/T. etc.

EDITED TO ADD:

Though 1 and 3 is also covered by Aimpoint and EoTech.


Remember that you ought to be able to point-shoot silhouettes to 25 yards easy, without sights.

Very true. I read your list AFTER I posted. Seems we are on the same page. The term Medium range has been cited as being beyond CQB, but not dedicated  Precision Rifle ranges. I want to hit a pie plate consistantly at 300-500. Essentially a man sized target at same ranges.

I took another look through my Nforce 2.5 NPR2 late this afternoon -- cloudy sun light. Double checked scope was at brightest setting and then went outside. Retical cross hairs were black, with a hint of red. Thus confirmed, no BAC in sunlight. Compared Nforce with my TA11 Donut at the same time and it was very bright and the BAC worked.

While I do not think the Nforce is as fast as the TA11Donut for CQB with sufficient practice, I think, the Nforce may be ok for CQB using a "flash slight picture" approach.  I did about 50 low ready-to-on-target strokes and then tried a few closing my eyes as I brought the piece up to eye level and then opening my eyes to see how well my "muscle memory" worked to allign the sights -- results were fairly good as I was able to keep the cross hairs on a 3" target at 10 yards using this approach.

For a general purpose scope, I want both CQB and 3" at 300m and 10" at 600m.  I am planning to work the the Nforce2.5 for a while to see if it will "do it all"

OK so would you rather have a 1X scope for CQB with a dim reticle or a 3.5-4X scope with a bright BAC style reticle that you have to use BAC stlye instead of Aimpoint/EOtech style?

Quoted: OK so would you rather have a 1X scope for CQB with a dim reticle or a 3.5-4X scope with a bright BAC style reticle that you have to use BAC stlye instead of Aimpoint/EOtech style?

I would also like to know... has anybody tried which one is faster to shoot(close range distances)? hinking.gif

Quoted: OK so would you rather have a 1X scope for CQB with a dim reticle or a 3.5-4X scope with a bright BAC style reticle that you have to use BAC stlye instead of Aimpoint/EOtech style?

I am not sure if this question was addressed to me, but here goes:
for CQB I would rather have the BAC 3.5 than a 1X with dim reticle for a general purpose CQB problem. I don't have much experience with an aimpoint, but it might be a bit faster. Note the wide eye relief of the TA11 is also a factor in being able to use it quickly.

Note the nightforce 2.5 (and 1.5 I think) is bigger than the TA11 so it blocks a bit more of the vision from my non-scope eye. This is not likely to bit a problem with only one or two bad guys, but with more targets, this could begin to be an issue.

However, there is the horse and then there is the jocky.  Differences between individuals' skill will probably swamp any difference in equiptment. I supect that if I practiced a lot (10,000+ dry fire strokes from low & high ready) and there were only a few targets inside 25yds, the Nforce would be fine. I plan to keep the Nforce on an accurate AR15 16" with the TA11 on a second rifle and try them both for a year or so with lots of range work and dry firing. Then I should be in a better position to make a valid judgement.(The TA11 is a tiny bit higher (ARMS #19 for ACOG LaRue for Nforce) but I seem to be able to switch back and forth. however, a lower TA11 mount would be better or I may obtain a nigher mount for the Nforce.)

In short, the 2.5X10 Nforce --if it will work for CQB problems inside 25yds -- would be the ideal General Purpose scope as it can handle 3"@300m and 10"@600m problems. The 10x magnification really helps at target  location and identification at longer ranges.  I am hoping that with sufficient practice it will function as a fairly good, light weight sniper scope that can serve for CQB.

Quoted: The 2.5-10 NXS works better for CQB with the front lenscap on, using it as an occluded sight, both eyes open. I haven't been shooting it long enough to be entirely comfortable with it, but it has promise. I don't like the included lens caps though. A Butler Creek flip-up will work much better, front and rear. The NXS caps seal well but are clumsy to get on and off. As to precision at longer ranges, beyond 300 yards for example, I think the NP-R2 or the mildot reticles will be more precise than the FC-2. The dot is 1.5 moa, so it will cover 6" at 400 yards, 9" at 600. Plenty good, and fast, for minute-of-man targeting but potentially not as precise as one with a finer crosshair-type reticle.

Occluded sight! Well done PaulE. Anyone try this out?

I think the FC-2 was meant for "battle sighting" and not really meant for very precise long range shooting. Like stated previously by xyzzy45, the 10x is great for target ID and location as well as good placement at medium ranges.

I think the NSW was looking for an all purpose scope and that's why they went for the FC-2 ret that was better at longer ranges than a 3-4X, and with training could be used for CQB.

Quoted: The 2.5-10 NXS works better for CQB with the front lenscap on, ....

I have tried this and it works somewhat like the old Trijicon scope that showed a red dot on black. It is, perhaps not quite bright enought to work well for me. I would still like it a bit brighter and I am somewhat uncomfortable with my sight occluded.

A side question - What do you fellows think of the NF lens covers? Do you switch them to Butler Creek caps?

Quoted: I spoke with a fellow at Nightforce about the 2.5-10x24mm. He said the FC-2 reticle was designed in conjunction with NSW "...to be used in CQB" That puzzled me at first, then I figured it was because he probably meant that at 2.5 mag with the reticle ON, you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I'm inclined to believe that he wasn't giving me a load of poop, he seemed to know his stuff. Any 2.5-10 users out there to opine? Otherwise, if so desired, you would need to add a pointsight for a CQB capability. img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/acog.jpg Thoughts on the matter? <Note: the below pic is NOT being hijacked from CSGunworks> img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/FC-2.jpg

Nice thread....but on a side note where can you get the 2.5-10x24mm?

Quoted: Quoted: I spoke with a fellow at Nightforce about the 2.5-10x24mm. He said the FC-2 reticle was designed in conjunction with NSW "...to be used in CQB" That puzzled me at first, then I figured it was because he probably meant that at 2.5 mag with the reticle ON, you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I'm inclined to believe that he wasn't giving me a load of poop, he seemed to know his stuff. Any 2.5-10 users out there to opine? Otherwise, if so desired, you would need to add a pointsight for a CQB capability. img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/acog.jpg Thoughts on the matter? <Note: the below pic is NOT being hijacked from CSGunworks> img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/FC-2.jpg Nice thread....but on a side note where can you get the 2.5-10x24mm?

I was lucky and found one used, but in near new condition, at a reasonable price when I was trolling the EE one day. The seller told me there were 7 others behind me withing a few hours.  

MSTN has them - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=23&t=221267

Edited to add: As does CSGunworks.

Do a search in the EE for the Nightforce 2.5-10, you'll get a few hits.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I spoke with a fellow at Nightforce about the 2.5-10x24mm. He said the FC-2 reticle was designed in conjunction with NSW "...to be used in CQB" That puzzled me at first, then I figured it was because he probably meant that at 2.5 mag with the reticle ON, you could use Trijicon's "Bindon Aiming Concept" I'm inclined to believe that he wasn't giving me a load of poop, he seemed to know his stuff. Any 2.5-10 users out there to opine? Otherwise, if so desired, you would need to add a pointsight for a CQB capability. img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/acog.jpg Thoughts on the matter? <Note: the below pic is NOT being hijacked from CSGunworks> img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/hepcat85/FC-2.jpg Nice thread....but on a side note where can you get the 2.5-10x24mm? I was lucky and found one used, but in near new condition, at a reasonable price when I was trolling the EE one day. The seller told me there we 7 others behind me withing a few hours.   MSTN has them - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=23&t=221267 Do a search in the EE for the Nightforce 2.5-10, you'll get a few hits.

Thanks,

I'm thinking real hard about getting one for a SPR Grendel build.

Bigant

Just got the 2.5-10 w/ FC-2 mounted. I'll have a range report coming soon regarding the BAC theory. Just eyeballing indoors, I agree with the previous post, not bright enough in direct sun. However, I think with the fron cap down, it may just work.....

Speaking of caps, anyone out there know what Butler Creek caps I'd need? I'm not at all please with tthe "rubbers."

Hep

EDIT TO ADD: As the NF rep I spoke with said, the FC-2 ret was developed in concert with the NSW. So perhaps they figured that the BAC like capability would be used indoors for clearing builds (IE CQB) more often than outdoors. Like I said, it seems just fine with indoor lighting. Just a thought.

I just ordered mine the other day.  Are you happy with the scope?

Regards,
Gary

Quoted: I just ordered mine the other day.  Are you happy with the scope? Regards, Gary

It's better than I expected. Did you get the FC-2 reticle?

I have a Leupold CQ/T so I had an idea of what the FC-2 would be like. Simply Awesome.

Especially if you can find one used at a deal price......

Quoted: Butler Creek caps... You will need a 02A for the front and a #13 for the rear.  I agree on the NF caps. Not useful to me anyway. The scopes are the heat though.

Thanks PaulE.

Perhaps if the were a half inch longer....cuz I can't get them to stay in place.