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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:56:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 9:16:52 AM EST by WillMunny]
Seems like there's a new crop of smaller, variable power scopes out now that are starting to get lots of attention. The two that come to mind are the US Optics SN-4, which has been discussed here before, and the Schmidt Bender CQB Police Marksman, link here: http://www.schmidtbender.com/scopes_policemarksman.shtml

I'm curious to learn what folks see as the advantages to these scopes (affordability is not one!) over "older" scopes like the ACOG TA01 NSN and others?

I was also surprised to see that the US military seems to be getting in on the action. The US Optics site says that the SN-4 is currently used by US military forces, including the SEALs. And I've recently seen a couple pics from the sandbox showing US SOFs or contractors with similar-looking optics (at least one was from Lightfighter.com). Is this the new trend?

Thanks for any info/feedback.

Will
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:05:34 AM EST
these scopes are super clear. I would say unnecessarily clear. Most people don’t have perfect vision so buying a scope like this would not help them much. Most folks can do just as good with a Leupold or (gulp) tasco scope so why spend the extra money for quality you can’t use?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:32:06 AM EST
A distinction ought to be made between field-elevation-adjustable scopes such as you'd see on a mid-range or SPR, vs. those without any external adjustments such as the ACOG.

-z
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:33:59 AM EST
The variable does something that most want - excellent CQB red dot and magnification and BDC at longer ranges.

NF has the 1-4,
USO has another scope in the works too. A fewof us where at SHOT last year and listening/discussing it and the S&B scope with the companies - the idea was for a Red Dot at 1x then a reticle to be visible at magnification (I am not a techy so no idea if it even possible)

These are all enduser driven for not everyone seems to think the TA31 E-COS is the way to go.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:38:43 AM EST
Agree on variable for versatility.

A couple things I think Trijicon got right with the ACOG:

1. compact size due to roof prism design. Both the TA31 and TA11's are much more compact than conventional designs like Leupold, S&B, and NF. The USO's are large and heavy.

2. used ambient light to "power" the lit reticle. We don't have to depend on batteries (still a good option to have), and it "self-adjusts" for brightness

-z
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:43:23 AM EST
Zak,

Thanks. Actually, you helped answer one of my questions in a round-about way. The fact that these newer models have "field-adjustability" is clearly a major difference that likely contributes to their increasing popularity (and their higher prices).

The pics I saw of these scopes showed them all mounted on M4s type carbines, one of which was on a contractor's SBR (maybe 8-inch?) upper, which seemed like a poor choice to me.

However, I suspect that the claim of "SEAL usage" on the US Optics
site means that the SEALs are using the SN-4 on their mid-length "recce rifles"?

Anyone know more?

Will
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:54:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By WillMunny:
Thanks. Actually, you helped answer one of my questions in a round-about way. The fact that these newer models have "field-adjustability" is clearly a major difference that likely contributes to their increasing popularity (and their higher prices).


The way I see it, there are two applications that these two types meet.

1. ACOG-type, general purpose, good for full size silhouettes to 500 yards, 10" squares to about 400. Hold-over is accomplished with built-in BDC and windage hold-off is done kentucky-style. The zero cannot be "bumped" accidentally because the adjustment screws are covered all the time.

2. medium-range/SPR, a "precision" optic with externally adjustable windage & elevation knobs. good for as much precision as your rifle can shoot. hold-over for large targets can be done using the mildots, hold-over for small targets done using elevation knob. windage can be done using either. these generally have no "BAC" capability (see TA31/TA11 ACOG) because their lit reticles are not bright enough, and there is always the change the adjustment knobs will be bumped off your zero when moving.

I see a place for both types, until something revolutionary comes out. I think the TA11 ACOG is the best of the first type. It is out of its element, however, at precise targets 200m or further, and at ranges closer than 20-40m. I'm not really satisfied with the current SPR/medium range optics either, see this thread for more discussion: AR15.Com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=199656&page=1


-z
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:52:40 PM EST
The SN4 is in no way a "new" scope. Its been around for several years. Its also not in use in any large number by our military. I guess its just new to you.

The SOPMOD 2 magnified optic is suppused to be a variable 1-4X scope with bright lit reticle with long battery life (or tritium/fiber optic), waterproof, shock proof etc. This is the right direction to me for a universal optic.

Any general purpose magnified optic needs to be under 16oz and preferably under 14oz. I know there are AT LEAST 3 different bodies for the SN4 so the weight and size issue mat not be as bad as many have believed. However I just can justify a scope costing in excess of $1500 for any purpose.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 3:55:18 PM EST
DevL,

Fair enough about the "new"part, but I think it's clear that this category of optic is attracting greater attention than they were before. So, maybe it's just the "buzz" that's relatively new--not the optic.

I'm still interested to hear more about pros/cons, as well as any info on US military usage?

Thanks.

Will


Link Posted: 10/26/2004 4:09:34 PM EST
SOPMOD II shit the bed on the E-COS downselect - TA31 ACOG (w/ M4/M855 reticle) XM-145 ELCAN (YUCK) and the EOTECH 554 w/ Magnifier.

As far as the 1-4 variable is it a desired not require item of E-COS - but some units( that can) are buying the variable systems.

Basicload [from LF] has a pic of his curent IRAQI blaster up with the S&B 1.1-4 on it in a custom made for him LaRue mount...

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:07:37 PM EST
I don't understand it. The AR really wants eye relief of 2 - 2.5", not 3+" like most of these conventional scopes have.

-z
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:12:05 PM EST
Zak - I cant figure it out either.

I shoot NTCH if I can - and in trying some of the variable offerings they just dont work well with the AR IMHO

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:20:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Zak - I cant figure it out either.
I shoot NTCH if I can - and in trying some of the variable offerings they just dont work well with the AR IMHO


That's one of my big complaints with the 2.5-10 NXS (the other is you can't tell what revolution the elevation knob is on and there's no zero-stop), and even the M/RT.

I wouldn't mind the eye relief issue so much if the scopes could be no more than about 5" long. But a 17-21oz scope mounted way over the fore-end screws up the weapon's balance and requires more complex mounting options.

-z
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