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9/16/2019 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 12/31/2011 7:53:00 PM EDT
So, at first I was completely against piston operation because it was less common (parts availability, in the event that supply, availability etc ever was disrupted), and all the stigma around carrier tilt, and all the other "problems" that arose out of the solution to DI carbon fouling.

After reading some on the subject, I'm a little less concerned about Pistons, and it seems to be the way to go. Most people seem to claim that the carrier tilit problem is no longer a concern with the companies that offer a specific bolt carrier to compensate.

My questions are as follows:

Is there a difference in (reliability and longevity of parts) between systems like the osprey and the adams arms retro fit kits?

Is carrier tilt an issue with some of the (seemingly) entry level or upgrade kits like CMMG, osprey, AA? Are there other issues that arise as a result of the piston operation?

Would there be anything that would make a piston ar15 a less reliable choice (longterm) over a regularly cleaned DI gun?
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 8:11:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jncryer:
So, at first I was completely against piston operation because it was less common (parts availability, in the event that supply, availability etc ever was disrupted), and all the stigma around carrier tilt, and all the other "problems" that arose out of the solution to DI carbon fouling.

After reading some on the subject, I'm a little less concerned about Pistons, and it seems to be the way to go. Most people seem to claim that the carrier tilit problem is no longer a concern with the companies that offer a specific bolt carrier to compensate.

My questions are as follows:

Is there a difference in (reliability and longevity of parts) between systems like the osprey and the adams arms retro fit kits?

Is carrier tilt an issue with some of the (seemingly) entry level or upgrade kits like CMMG, osprey, AA? Are there other issues that arise as a result of the piston operation?

Would there be anything that would make a piston ar15 a less reliable choice (longterm) over a regularly cleaned DI gun?


I know of 2 groups that have tested pretty much every piston on the market. AA and LWRC are the only two that they didn't break. Of the two, the AA came away with less wear. Having sat down for an extremely detailed lesson on pistons, i've decided that if I ever go to a piston, it'll be an AA kit.

As far long term reliability over di goes, I'm still convinced that more shit that moves, the more shit that'll break.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 8:19:15 PM EDT
I shoot M4's and M16's in the military. My own personal AR is piston for a reason.

I've never had any reliability issues with it. Took it out today as a matter of fact and it ran like a champ. Love the thing more than any other AR I've owned or shot.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 9:15:58 PM EDT
I have some carrier tilt with my AA kit...but its the old style carrier key version. Not sure what all the hub-bub is over carrier tilt. Just seems to put some wear in the tube.

Just make sure you get the newer AA kit if you go that route. I will be getting one of their one-piece carriers soon. That way i don't have to worry about the key failure.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:10:56 AM EDT
I have three Adams Arms Pistons, A LWRC and an Osprey Defense. No issues with any of them...Adams arms are one of my favorite...having said that if SHTF and I had to grab one rifle and nothing else I would grab the LWRC
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 7:37:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2012 7:46:47 AM EDT by ragingyeti]
I have an adams arms retro kit and can only speak for it, but it will be as robust as you can for a piston system. Carrier tilt is non existent, as most pistons will probably be. As for reliability, a good piston will be no less nor no more reliable than a well maintained DI rifle. A maintained rifle, no matter the gas system, will always be reliable.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:58:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 5:59:20 PM EDT by jncryer]
All goo info, guys! thanks!

Really leaning towards an AA middy setup.I live right down the street from one of their top dealers and the guy has some really good deals on AA setups.

Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jncryer:
So, at first I was completely against piston operation because it was less common (parts availability, in the event that supply, availability etc ever was disrupted), and all the stigma around carrier tilt, and all the other "problems" that arose out of the solution to DI carbon fouling.

After reading some on the subject, I'm a little less concerned about Pistons, and it seems to be the way to go. Most people seem to claim that the carrier tilit problem is no longer a concern with the companies that offer a specific bolt carrier to compensate.

My questions are as follows:

Is there a difference in (reliability and longevity of parts) between systems like the osprey and the adams arms retro fit kits?

Is carrier tilt an issue with some of the (seemingly) entry level or upgrade kits like CMMG, osprey, AA? Are there other issues that arise as a result of the piston operation?

Would there be anything that would make a piston ar15 a less reliable choice (longterm) over a regularly cleaned DI gun?


I know of 2 groups that have tested pretty much every piston on the market. AA and LWRC are the only two that they didn't break. Of the two, the AA came away with less wear. Having sat down for an extremely detailed lesson on pistons, i've decided that if I ever go to a piston, it'll be an AA kit.

As far long term reliability over di goes, I'm still convinced that more shit that moves, the more shit that'll break.


I'm curious: what groups are you talking about? What did they do in the tests to get the other setups to break? What kind of wear? Where can I read over their findings?



Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:03:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 6:05:08 PM EDT by pun]
I have 3 Osprey and well over 10k rounds at this point on one of them..no problems and Osprey will sell spare parts but I just keep the DI parts around in case I ever have something break and dont have a spare it can go back to DI in 10 minutes.Carrier tilt has never been an issue for the Ospre416 I dont have any wear inside the extension.
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 12:54:41 PM EDT
Pistons are the shit! Less recoil, less heat, less cleaning, just nice!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 3:34:00 PM EDT
FWIW, I dropped a few hundred on some Mil-Surp M855 Ball rounds when I first got my LWRC. 5000 rounds in two range trips, without cleaning, and I didn't have a single failure to function. (But there is some melted skin and hair on the barrel from where my buddy dropped it on his leg.)
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 7:45:43 AM EDT
I have had DI ars. I recently sold my DI upper for a Adams Arms mid length upper and havent had any problems. Besides a small finish issue which was quickly handled by AA it has run flawlessly. Very accurate too.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 9:40:26 AM EDT
I recently took delivery of a super nice Adams Arms Mid Length 14.5" "Tactical Elite." The only problem so far are the swivel mount retention cups located in the aft portion of the rails. However, the rail is made by Samson Manufacturing and not a direct indication of any quality control issues by Adams Arms. The fit and finish of this upper is first rate and I can't wait to shoot it! Very happy with this purchase!
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 10:22:05 AM EDT
LWRC A2 and Stag Model 8 here. Both piston systems have been accurate, reliable, and simple as hell to maintain. I've shot my buddies daniel defense with an AA kit and that's what convinced me about switching to piston. The M4 issued to me by the Army served me well but if I had a choice I would go piston all the way. You will not regret it man. Just my opinion though....
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 10:29:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2012 3:03:35 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Then you won't need to post in this sub-forum again...VA-gunnut
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 11:49:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


If it's such a waste why would HK make a piston AR?

Link Posted: 1/3/2012 12:41:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


If it's such a waste why would HK make a piston AR?





It's not a waste because someone makes it?

They make it because some people want it.

It doesn't mean anything about its relative usefulness. People watch reality television, too.

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 12:55:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. Just a hunch, but it seems you probably aren't very educated on the matter. Or typing.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 12:58:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jncryer:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. Just a hunch, but it seems you probably aren't very educated on the matter. Or typing.


Yea you heard about them new scare rifles? I think they are kinda like the SCAR but better.

Link Posted: 1/3/2012 1:35:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


If it's such a waste why would HK make a piston AR?





It's not a waste because someone makes it?

They make it because some people want it.

It doesn't mean anything about its relative usefulness. People watch reality television, too.

~Augee


Also from what ive been readin on different places the 416 isnt doing to good and is bein replaced by DI MK18's

That said i dont feel like a piston system is need in the AR rifles. A piston does offer a cooler platform inside and cleaner but neither of those things is an issue in the DI system either
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 2:08:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


If it's such a waste why would HK make a piston AR?





It's not a waste because someone makes it?

They make it because some people want it.

It doesn't mean anything about its relative usefulness. People watch reality television, too.

~Augee


Also from what ive been readin on different places the 416 isnt doing to good and is bein replaced by DI MK18's

That said i dont feel like a piston system is need in the AR rifles. A piston does offer a cooler platform inside and cleaner but neither of those things is an issue in the DI system either


Sure but when I sat there and ran my irons for about 400 something rounds and took my rifle apart right after that so I could bore sight my optic I can easily say there are many advantages in my mind with a piston system.

Link Posted: 1/3/2012 2:29:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


If it's such a waste why would HK make a piston AR?





It's not a waste because someone makes it?

They make it because some people want it.

It doesn't mean anything about its relative usefulness. People watch reality television, too.

~Augee


Also from what ive been readin on different places the 416 isnt doing to good and is bein replaced by DI MK18's

That said i dont feel like a piston system is need in the AR rifles. A piston does offer a cooler platform inside and cleaner but neither of those things is an issue in the DI system either


Sure but when I sat there and ran my irons for about 400 something rounds and took my rifle apart right after that so I could bore sight my optic I can easily say there are many advantages in my mind with a piston system.



If you have irons why did you bore sight your optic? Most would have just lined it up with the irons

Ive also put 300 rounds through my 20" in about 20 minutes and the BCG was warm but cool enough to hold
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 8:21:01 PM EDT
Only experience with a piston is my early 2010 Sig 516. After an initial from the factory op-rod problem the thing is perfect. I have no idea what carrier tilt is. I don't (well rarely) clean the thing. It just keeps ticking. I see your in AZ, your welcome to torture mine if you want to see a piston in action.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 8:40:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jncryer:
So, at first I was completely against piston operation because it was less common (parts availability, in the event that supply, availability etc ever was disrupted), and all the stigma around carrier tilt, and all the other "problems" that arose out of the solution to DI carbon fouling.

After reading some on the subject, I'm a little less concerned about Pistons, and it seems to be the way to go. Most people seem to claim that the carrier tilit problem is no longer a concern with the companies that offer a specific bolt carrier to compensate.

My questions are as follows:

Is there a difference in (reliability and longevity of parts) between systems like the osprey and the adams arms retro fit kits?

Is carrier tilt an issue with some of the (seemingly) entry level or upgrade kits like CMMG, osprey, AA? Are there other issues that arise as a result of the piston operation?

Would there be anything that would make a piston ar15 a less reliable choice (longterm) over a regularly cleaned DI gun?


I know of 2 groups that have tested pretty much every piston on the market. AA and LWRC are the only two that they didn't break. Of the two, the AA came away with less wear. Having sat down for an extremely detailed lesson on pistons, i've decided that if I ever go to a piston, it'll be an AA kit.

As far long term reliability over di goes, I'm still convinced that more shit that moves, the more shit that'll break.


Please cite this source. I would be very interested in reading it, it conflicts with multiple sources I have researched. I'm not trying to say it is inaccurate, but I'd be interested in their findings and research methods.

I have found dissimilar results in department testings of LWRC, and POF, LE weapon systems. I know of no abnormal wear on any of the LWRC systems in particular, carrier tilt is for the most part a perceived problem with piston weapons systems. I believe LWRC, POF, and Osprey have all found good solutions to the issue which never really manifested in later stage testing. You can find the published studies in other posts on the piston forum.

I see no reason why an AA retro kit would perform better than an LWRC kit the quality seems to be considered better, at a bare minimum the same.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:12:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By jncryer:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. Just a hunch, but it seems you probably aren't very educated on the matter. Or typing.


Yea you heard about them new scare rifles? I think they are kinda like the SCAR but better.



SCAR-E.

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 11:50:44 AM EDT
Pistons run cleaner. They weigh a little more so with extra mass theres less perceived recoil. I have an M6A3 and I love it. The heat dissipation with a piston setup is a big plus as well.
its an answer to a problem that never exsisted
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 11:57:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
Originally Posted By jncryer:
Originally Posted By alexfiggy:
Piston is a waste f money in the ar15 platform ! Just my opinion. Buy a scare or something like that if you want a piston rifle !save your money buy more ammo and clean your rifle.


I'm going to go ahead and ignore this. Just a hunch, but it seems you probably aren't very educated on the matter. Or typing.


Yea you heard about them new scare rifles? I think they are kinda like the SCAR but better.



SCAR-E.

~Augee


I think you mean the SCAREY rifle.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 9:21:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickymachinegun:
Pistons run cleaner. They weigh a little more so with extra mass theres less perceived recoil. I have an M6A3 and I love it. The heat dissipation with a piston setup is a big plus as well.
its an answer to a problem that never exsisted


Cleaner? You have to clean your piston setup? Less perceived recoil....no. Different, yes. I percieve it out of the 516 at least as at shorter, but sharper recoil compared to the longer, softer DI setups I run. Perception is in the eyes of the beholder though.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:56:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dubyaS:
Originally Posted By Rickymachinegun:
Pistons run cleaner. They weigh a little more so with extra mass theres less perceived recoil. I have an M6A3 and I love it. The heat dissipation with a piston setup is a big plus as well.
its an answer to a problem that never exsisted


Cleaner? You have to clean your piston setup? Less perceived recoil....no. Different, yes. I percieve it out of the 516 at least as at shorter, but sharper recoil compared to the longer, softer DI setups I run. Perception is in the eyes of the beholder though.


No one denies the fact you still have to clean your piston guns. And i didn't say a piston gun will recoil less that added weight does that for you
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:46:44 AM EDT
Actually a piston gun does have less recoil. A DI gun is over gassed by design. The military wanted something that would fire every time.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 8:34:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PhilCollins:
Actually a piston gun does have less recoil. A DI gun is over gassed by design. The military wanted something that would fire every time.


Well my DI's recoil less.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 9:56:44 AM EDT
Im not concerned with recoil.

Im concerned about parts longevity, and system reliability. Some will say that the piston is a "solution to a problem that didnt need solving, and creates more problems". Besides carrier tilit (which seems to be a non-issue at this point in my reading) are there other problems that arise with piston guns?

When I pick it up next time (or any time down the road) will it be as likely as a DI gun to put a round down range?
Are certain components more likely to break or wear down more quickly as a result of the piston operation instead of the gas?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:13:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PhilCollins:
Actually a piston gun does have less recoil. A DI gun is over gassed by design. The military wanted something that would fire every time.


That is the dumbest thing ive ever in my life heard.

Civilian DI guns designed to shoot low powered tula are over gassed, BCM guns designed to shoot proper 5.56 are not
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:14:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jncryer:
Im not concerned with recoil.

Im concerned about parts longevity, and system reliability. Some will say that the piston is a "solution to a problem that didnt need solving, and creates more problems". Besides carrier tilit (which seems to be a non-issue at this point in my reading) are there other problems that arise with piston guns?

When I pick it up next time (or any time down the road) will it be as likely as a DI gun to put a round down range?
Are certain components more likely to break or wear down more quickly as a result of the piston operation instead of the gas?


More movin parts means more parts that can break and will eventually, its a not a matter of if its a matter of when
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 10:26:00 AM EDT
Break? Heh... yeah. ALL mechanical gizmos break. DI and piston ARs break. Garands break. AKs break. Some more often than others, but Hey! That's why we have to have more than one firearm! (or 2 or 3 or...)

At least, that's MY story, and I'm stickin' to it.....
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 12:58:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By joeblack261:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By jncryer:
So, at first I was completely against piston operation because it was less common (parts availability, in the event that supply, availability etc ever was disrupted), and all the stigma around carrier tilt, and all the other "problems" that arose out of the solution to DI carbon fouling.

After reading some on the subject, I'm a little less concerned about Pistons, and it seems to be the way to go. Most people seem to claim that the carrier tilit problem is no longer a concern with the companies that offer a specific bolt carrier to compensate.

My questions are as follows:

Is there a difference in (reliability and longevity of parts) between systems like the osprey and the adams arms retro fit kits?

Is carrier tilt an issue with some of the (seemingly) entry level or upgrade kits like CMMG, osprey, AA? Are there other issues that arise as a result of the piston operation?

Would there be anything that would make a piston ar15 a less reliable choice (longterm) over a regularly cleaned DI gun?


I know of 2 groups that have tested pretty much every piston on the market. AA and LWRC are the only two that they didn't break. Of the two, the AA came away with less wear. Having sat down for an extremely detailed lesson on pistons, i've decided that if I ever go to a piston, it'll be an AA kit.

As far long term reliability over di goes, I'm still convinced that more shit that moves, the more shit that'll break.


Please cite this source. I would be very interested in reading it, it conflicts with multiple sources I have researched. I'm not trying to say it is inaccurate, but I'd be interested in their findings and research methods.

I have found dissimilar results in department testings of LWRC, and POF, LE weapon systems. I know of no abnormal wear on any of the LWRC systems in particular, carrier tilt is for the most part a perceived problem with piston weapons systems. I believe LWRC, POF, and Osprey have all found good solutions to the issue which never really manifested in later stage testing. You can find the published studies in other posts on the piston forum.

I see no reason why an AA retro kit would perform better than an LWRC kit the quality seems to be considered better, at a bare minimum the same.




I would like to know as well
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:35:09 PM EDT
[/quote]

That is the dumbest thing ive ever in my life heard.

Civilian DI guns designed to shoot low powered tula are over gassed, BCM guns designed to shoot proper 5.56 are not[/quote]

Well McFly lets break it down a little for you. The gas tube is cyclically vented. And that means, when the piston is forward it blocks the vents and presents a closed system. As the gas pressurizes the system and begins moving the piston, the piston head uncovers the vents, and gas is blown out of the tube. This acts to regulate gas flow. Excess gas will begin to move the piston faster, but as soon as the piston head passes the vents, the gas is blown out, limiting any overworking of the system. Its a self regulating design. There is no doubt that di is becoming a thing of the past.

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:23:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 5:26:29 PM EDT by sinlessorrow]
Originally Posted By PhilCollins:


That is the dumbest thing ive ever in my life heard.

Civilian DI guns designed to shoot low powered tula are over gassed, BCM guns designed to shoot proper 5.56 are not[/quote]

Well McFly lets break it down a little for you. The gas tube is cyclically vented. And that means, when the piston is forward it blocks the vents and presents a closed system. As the gas pressurizes the system and begins moving the piston, the piston head uncovers the vents, and gas is blown out of the tube. This acts to regulate gas flow. Excess gas will begin to move the piston faster, but as soon as the piston head passes the vents, the gas is blown out, limiting any overworking of the system. Its a self regulating design. There is no doubt that di is becoming a thing of the past.

[/quote]

now im confused, what are you talking about? i know how the piston system works in the DI.

you said the DI is overgassed by design. which its not and is you showing your ignorance
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 6:08:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PhilCollins:
There is no doubt that di is becoming a thing of the past.


Well, I have all piston carbines right now (KT SU16CA, FNH-FS2000, PWS MK114 and Sig 516) so you might find it odd i disagree.

I miss my DI Les Baer M4 and believe DI will not go away in the civilian market as it is cheaper to build and the fouling "problem" is hardly a problem in reality.

Now, that said, I came home yesterday from the range and had to clean my DI White Oaks 26 target AR but the Sig 516, I pulled the bolt, took a look and a couple rubs on things, no dirt, sweet, just put it in the safe.

So, while i prefer the ease of maintenance of a piston and would prefer one in a sustained deployment I would have no problem with the LBC M4 in any situation instead of a piston AR, of course, IMO.


Wulfmann

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