I have a 1/9 barrel.  I am thinking of 1k of black hills 68g.  First question, any reason this is a worse choice than xm193?  Second question, red box or will blue box suffice?  At first I wanted to go surplus but everthing I see for sale is $400-$500 for 840 rounds.  Seems like black hills is basically the same price or less for something that will work just as well.  Please tell me what I don't know.  Thanks.

I also have a 1000 rounds of gold dot 124g +p for my glock 19.  Any drawbacks to using this for a SHTF stash?

I have a 1/9 barrel.  I am thinking of 1k of black hills 68g.  First question, any reason this is a worse choice than xm193?

Black Hills is a much better choice than xm193, especially when cost is factored in.

Second question, red box or will blue box suffice?

Both are good, but the blue box is much cheaper.  Black Hills remanufactured ammunition is better than many other manufactures' brand new ammo.  Go with the Blue Box and buy more of it.  

At first I wanted to go surplus but everything I see for sale is $400-$500 for 840 rounds.  Seems like black hills is basically the same price or less for something that will work just as well better.  Please tell me what I don't know.  Thanks.

You're correct.  Black Hills is more accurate and offers better terminal performance than surplus.  The way I see it, the only thing surplus had going for it was price and availability.  Now that this is no longer the case, the advantages of BH over surplus are obvious.  

I also have a 1000 rounds of gold dot 124g +p for my glock 19.  Any drawbacks to using this for a SHTF stash?

No drawbacks whatsoever.  I don't know why, but for some reason this load is available for 23-26 cents per round shipped.  I would stock up on another case or two because I doubt this price will last.  The Gold Dot is considered one of the best choices in self defense ammuniton available.  

You picked the wrong time to start stocking up, but I can’t see prices going down anytime soon.  Good luck with your stash!  

Thanks for the input.  I forgot to ask if the black hills has a sealed bullet and primer?

Surplus is loaded quite a bit hotter for better terminal performance than just about any factory loading.

the primers are crimped and sealed and the bullet is cannelured.

IMO, for SHTF surplus is hard to beat.

that being said, black hills makes some damn fine ammo and may produce more consistent results than mil-surplus.  If you're gonna shoot for groups, I'd take BH.

it's your money, but for shtf mil-surplus is my pick.

 

Quoted: Thanks for the input.  I forgot to ask if the black hills has a sealed bullet and primer?

I'm 99.9999% sure it is not...

there may be some Mk262 floating around (mfg. by BH for the mil) with a sealed primer, but it's bound to be expensive.


ETA: given two rounds with the same weight projectile (55gr. for example) the mil-surplus will have better on target performance due to increased velocity.

I don't know about the BH68gr stuff, but XM193 has crimped primers and sealed bullets.  If you are only going to purchase 1K rounds for SHTF storage, I would look into the 75gr TAP as it also has crimped primers and sealed bullets.  Try a box first, as 1/9 barrels are a little picky about shooting the heavier rounds, if you have a bushmaster barrel, they will shoot it and they guarantee it from the factory.  

In the end, it all depends on what matters the most to you.  Everyone has a difference of opinion as to why you should store X brand of ammo.  I mainly just want the crimped and sealed primers and sealed bullets.

Quoted: snip/  I mainly just want the crimped and sealed primers and sealed bullets.

yep

Quoted: I have a 1/9 barrel.  I am thinking of 1k of black hills 68g.  First question, any reason this is a worse choice than xm193?  Second question, red box or will blue box suffice?  At first I wanted to go surplus but everthing I see for sale is $400-$500 for 840 rounds.  Seems like black hills is basically the same price or less for something that will work just as well.  Please tell me what I don't know.  Thanks. I also have a 1000 rounds of gold dot 124g +p for my glock 19.  Any drawbacks to using this for a SHTF stash?

Where are you getting the Gold Dots and how much?

Quoted: Surplus is loaded quite a bit hotter for better terminal performance than just about any factory loading.

According to the "Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammunition," the heavy OTMs offer supperior terminal performance over xm193 and m855.  

While the M855-type ammunition generally meets performance requirements, there have been quite a few reports in inadequate fragmentation. Please remember that this is military ammo, and while the fragmentating properties are well documented and understood, there is no requirement for the bullet to fragment when being tested for acceptance. There can be significant variations in constructions which could make some lots perform much worse than others. For this reason, it is not on the list. While the M193-type ammo is not nearly as complicated of a design, it is also not inherently as devastating as the heavier OTMs listed below. Since this article is about the BEST choices for self-defense ammuntion, it is omitted also.

I also have a 1000 rounds of gold dot 124g +p for my glock 19.  Any drawbacks to using this for a SHTF stash?

No drawbacks whatsoever.  I don't know why, but for some reason this load is available for 23-26 cents per round shipped.  I would stock up on another case or two because I doubt this price will last.  The Gold Dot is considered one of the best choices in self defense ammuniton available.  

You picked the wrong time to start stocking up, but I can’t see prices going down anytime soon.  Good luck with your stash!  


If you don't mind me asking, where are you finding Gold Dot at that price?

SHTF to me means havin as much ammo as possible, not the finest ammo possible. Now for goin to the sniper match then its the quality ammo i would take. For stashin away and stockin as much as you can go with the cheap wolf or cheap surplus you can find. Unless your makin $50 hr, livin at home in moms basement, only payment is the one on your 24" doves with the spinners then get the cheap stuff. Wolf runs 100% in all my guns and youll find most folks will say the same. Durin a SHTF kinda crisis, no one is gonna look over at you and see polymere coated cases comin out of your gun and say "Look at the cheap ass, hes usin wolf" Where as they have 2,000 rnds...youll have 4,000 rnds to defend your fortress. Just my .02

Quoted: SHTF to me means havin as much ammo as possible, not the finest ammo possible. Now for goin to the sniper match then its the quality ammo i would take. For stashin away and stockin as much as you can go with the cheap wolf or cheap surplus you can find. Unless your makin $50 hr, livin at home in moms basement, only payment is the one on your 24" doves with the spinners then get the cheap stuff. Wolf runs 100% in all my guns and youll find most folks will say the same. Durin a SHTF kinda crisis, no one is gonna look over at you and see polymere coated cases comin out of your gun and say "Look at the cheap ass, hes usin wolf" Where as they have 2,000 rnds...youll have 4,000 rnds to defend your fortress. Just my .02

I agree to some extent (at least on principle of not buying the most expensive stuff out there so I can get more of it), however, one thing to remember about 4,000 rounds of Wolf for SHTF is that your gun will get a hell of a lot dirtier and much more quickly than it would with XM193, PP M193, Guat, etc.  Which means it will likely lock up sooner.  I shoot alot of Wolf too, but in a SHTF situation I don't want to stop every 500-1000 rounds and clean my gun.  Realistically, I doubt I will ever shoot 500-1000 rounds in any situation like that at any rate.

Prvi Partizan M193 is one of the best SHTF loads out there, IMO, if it works in your guns.  Fully sealed and in sealed battle packs, brass cased and clean running, it is good to go.  Of course, my SHTF stash is XM193 and some other stuff, but if I were starting out new now I would wait around for aim surplus to get some more Prvi back in stock.

Im not gonna act like im all knowin cause im not, but what the hell does anyone shoot ammo wise thats CLEAN? I have shot 98% WOLF 223 threw all my AR's and M16, NEVER a problem and i have shot 1,000 rnds at a time, its not hard to do. I have shot other brands ammo and not noticed a difference, it was all dirty.

Wolf allows me to shoot 1,000 rnds in my M16 in full auto, allows me to hit the gongs at 500 yrds, fires consistantly every time i pull the trigger and doesnt break my wallet when i do.

FWIW, here's a pic of a pattern I shot just today with Black  Hills 68 gr. Heavy Match, Hollow Points... I dont know why it was stringing that way but it groups well. Sandbag rest, 3x Leupold scope.

"one thing to remember about 4,000 rounds of Wolf for SHTF is that your gun will get a hell of a lot dirtier and much more quickly than it would with XM193, PP M193, Guat, etc. Which means it will likely lock up sooner."


That is why you ought to have two-three-four Ar rifles..rather like the colonial days when the women and kids would load the weapons once you fire them.
  Todays deal is thirty shots to the magazine shoot and reload mags until it quits and grab another

Well, thats the difference between those that shoot nothin other then the best of the best and people like me. I keep on hand 15,000 rnds of 223, my M16 is always runnin when we have a shoot, no one has ever heard me tell someone they couldnt run some mags threw it, then ya got the guys that have nothin but the best of the best ammo, they shoot for 30 mins "Conservativly" (And with a F/A that makes no sense) and are afraid to let people shoot cause thats just one less mag they get to run cause they only have 1,000 rnds with them. Maybe im missin somethin but i never saw anyone shoot any ammo out of any gun and it not get dirty.I have a chrome bolt in my 16, so i see the dirt real fast, i see it when i shoot XM193 federal, surplus LC, Wolf and any other crap threw it. I PREFFER WOLF ammo, it has never failed me. I shoot over 100,000 rnds a yr threw my guns and i dont like ammo that causes problems, ecspecially when i go to shoots in other states and rent them out.

One way to look at it.

The military deals with the "SHTF" all the time.

What do they use?

There is that pesky Geneva Conventions thing that sorta limits what the military can use. I know there are plenty of guys in the sandbox that would love to be able to use a good hollow point. Defending yourself from locals is a bit different than firing on Russians with body armor.

Edit: I use BH 68gr all the time. It is very accurate and consistent with a 1:9 twist. Hope that helps.

Even though prices are high now, keep buying - we do not know if prices will ever go back down.  With prices still going higher and higher and a potential anti-gun regime on the horizon, it does not look good.  Who knows in time, but I would say: KEEP BUYING AMMO!!!

I bought the majority of my gold dots a while back.  The ones I have bought recently were $20 for 50rounds if I remember right.

Anybody know for sure whether or not the black hills is crimped and sealed?  Am I right that bullet crimping is to avoid bullet setback?  What is the main purpose of the sealing?  Is it just in case it gets wet or is it important in some other way for storage?

Quoted: Quoted: Surplus is loaded quite a bit hotter for better terminal performance than just about any factory loading. According to the "Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammunition," the heavy OTMs offer supperior terminal performance over xm193 and m855.   While the M855-type ammunition generally meets performance requirements, there have been quite a few reports in inadequate fragmentation. Please remember that this is military ammo, and while the fragmentating properties are well documented and understood, there is no requirement for the bullet to fragment when being tested for acceptance. There can be significant variations in constructions which could make some lots perform much worse than others. For this reason, it is not on the list. While the M193-type ammo is not nearly as complicated of a design, it is also not inherently as devastating as the heavier OTMs listed below. Since this article is about the BEST choices for self-defense ammuntion, it is omitted also.

The oracle is correct, but the OP wants to know what ammo he should keep for shtf stach.  Mil-ammo has sealed and crimped primers for more "weather resistant" ammo.  

In the second post I made, you'll see that the qualifier "given that the rounds are the same weight" was typed.

Between a black hills 55gr. round and a mil-surplus 55 gr. (Q3131 or M193) round, I'll take the hotter cannelured mil-surplus ammo for better on-target performance.

Taking into consideration that storage conditions in a SHTF type scenario won't be ideal and may require that ammo be exposed to outside elements, I'll take the added insurance of sealed/crimped primers/case necks.

If the OP can find black hills Mk262 (75gr.) mil-surplus then he should by all means lay in a stash of that.  Otherwise, for SHTF scenarios, (and given a choice) I'll always recommend mil-surplus ammo.  

Quoted: Well, thats the difference between those that shoot nothin other then the best of the best and people like me. I keep on hand 15,000 rnds of 223, my M16 is always runnin when we have a shoot, no one has ever heard me tell someone they couldnt run some mags threw it, then ya got the guys that have nothin but the best of the best ammo, they shoot for 30 mins "Conservativly" (And with a F/A that makes no sense) and are afraid to let people shoot cause thats just one less mag they get to run cause they only have 1,000 rnds with them. Maybe im missin somethin but i never saw anyone shoot any ammo out of any gun and it not get dirty.I have a chrome bolt in my 16, so i see the dirt real fast, i see it when i shoot XM193 federal, surplus LC, Wolf and any other crap threw it. I PREFFER WOLF ammo, it has never failed me. I shoot over 100,000 rnds a yr threw my guns and i dont like ammo that causes problems, ecspecially when i go to shoots in other states and rent them out.

beltfedMGs, in your experience how does that Wolf compare to XM193 as far as velocity and accuracy? I've NEVER used Wolf in an AR, but current pricing has got me thinking about it.

Quoted: FWIW, here's a pic of a pattern I shot just today with Black  Hills 68 gr. Heavy Match, Hollow Points... I dont know why it was stringing that way but it groups well. Sandbag rest, 3x Leupold scope. i56.photobucket.com/albums/g169/franksymptoms/Gun%20stuff/BlackHills68grHeavyMatchHP.jpg

Don't take this as a "I know how to shoot and you don't" because I'm not the best either, but a PMI would most likely tell you it has to do with your breathing control. If your not familiar with it (and I'm not saying you aren't) with you rifle resting, watch carefully at your sight picture while breathing normally. It will move up and down while you are breathing. We were taught to take 2 normal breaths, and pause at the exhale of the third and fire. If this is new to you, it takes a little practice to get use to, but it should help. Just a possible fix

Quoted: "one thing to remember about 4,000 rounds of Wolf for SHTF is that your gun will get a hell of a lot dirtier and much more quickly than it would with XM193, PP M193, Guat, etc. Which means it will likely lock up sooner." That is why you ought to have two-three-four Ar rifles..rather like the colonial days when the women and kids would load the weapons once you fire them.   Todays deal is thirty shots to the magazine shoot and reload mags until it quits and grab another

I do, but it makes no sense to operate under the assumption they will all be within arms reach.  Especially in the woods moving from place to place.  In reality, any of us thinking we will use 1,000's of rounds in a SHTF scenario is a little far fetched anyway.

Quoted: Well, thats the difference between those that shoot nothin other then the best of the best and people like me. I keep on hand 15,000 rnds of 223, my M16 is always runnin when we have a shoot, no one has ever heard me tell someone they couldnt run some mags threw it, then ya got the guys that have nothin but the best of the best ammo, they shoot for 30 mins "Conservativly" (And with a F/A that makes no sense) and are afraid to let people shoot cause thats just one less mag they get to run cause they only have 1,000 rnds with them. Maybe im missin somethin but i never saw anyone shoot any ammo out of any gun and it not get dirty.I have a chrome bolt in my 16, so i see the dirt real fast, i see it when i shoot XM193 federal, surplus LC, Wolf and any other crap threw it. I PREFFER WOLF ammo, it has never failed me. I shoot over 100,000 rnds a yr threw my guns and i dont like ammo that causes problems, ecspecially when i go to shoots in other states and rent them out.

I shoot alot of Wolf and Wolf MC and like it very well myself.  I was not trying to offend you or throw off on Wolf and if I did I am sorry.  What I was saying is, IME, some of the other choices out there run much cleaner like the Prvi Partizan M193, which is also not what I would consider snob ammo.  Particularly, all the primer sealant on the Wolf is bad to foul up the bolt face, under the extractor, etc.  

Hey, any of it beats a sharp stick for SHTF!

DixieDawg, i have not put Wolf on paper to know how it groups, i know i can hit the 365 yrd and 500 yrd gongs with it all day with a 16" AR.

Blacksnake, didnt mean to sound like i was barkin at ya, sorry, just get tired of people downin wolf when 30% of them never even tried it.

My wise advice for all newbies wanting to start an ammo stash (year 2007 and beyond):

Get good education, a degree, actually get the good job, don't marry if possible and fer godsakes DON'T have any kids!!

In reality, any of us thinking we will use 1,000's of rounds in a SHTF scenario is a little far fetched anyway.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!!

Do you live in a fortress that you can defend when/if SHTF?  Who's the OPFOR?  What are their capabilities to take your fortress?

If you think you're going to run "to the woods" and hideout or bunker up, how are you going to get all of those cases of ammo out there without being noticed?  Hump it in???

Not saying it can't be done but I'm thinking (with a 22+ year Army career behind me) that a SHTF basic load is going to be smaller than the "training" ammo stockpile that you should be building.  I've heard it said that "I'd rather have 900 rounds of experience and 100 rounds of ammo than only 100 rounds of experience and 900 rounds of ammo".  It'll suck to only get off 5 to 10 rounds and maybe score one hit when your lights go out due to incoming fire.  Then the bad guys can bitch about having to move all of your left over ammo.

height=8

Quoted: height=8  In reality, any of us thinking we will use 1,000's of rounds in a SHTF scenario is a little far fetched anyway. Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!! Do you live in a fortress that you can defend when/if SHTF?  Who's the OPFOR?  What are their capabilities to take your fortress? If you think you're going to run "to the woods" and hideout or bunker up, how are you going to get all of those cases of ammo out there without being noticed?  Hump it in??? Not saying it can't be done but I'm thinking (with a 22+ year Army career behind me) that a SHTF basic load is going to be smaller than the "training" ammo stockpile that you should be building.  I've heard it said that "I'd rather have 900 rounds of experience and 100 rounds of ammo than only 100 rounds of experience and 900 rounds of ammo".  It'll suck to only get off 5 to 10 rounds and maybe score one hit when your lights go out due to incoming fire.  Then the bad guys can bitch about having to move all of your left over ammo.

Makes sense to me. I posted my opinion on this and got shot down big time. Your post count is higher than mine though. That seems to carry a lot of weight around here...

Quoted: Quoted:  In reality, any of us thinking we will use 1,000's of rounds in a SHTF scenario is a little far fetched anyway. Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!! Do you live in a fortress that you can defend when/if SHTF?  Who's the OPFOR?  What are their capabilities to take your fortress? If you think you're going to run "to the woods" and hideout or bunker up, how are you going to get all of those cases of ammo out there without being noticed?  Hump it in??? Not saying it can't be done but I'm thinking (with a 22+ year Army career behind me) that a SHTF basic load is going to be smaller than the "training" ammo stockpile that you should be building.  I've heard it said that "I'd rather have 900 rounds of experience and 100 rounds of ammo than only 100 rounds of experience and 900 rounds of ammo".  It'll suck to only get off 5 to 10 rounds and maybe score one hit when your lights go out due to incoming fire.  Then the bad guys can bitch about having to move all of your left over ammo. Makes sense to me. I posted my opinion on this and got shot down big time. Your post count is higher than mine though. That seems to carry a lot of weight around here...

Ah, you're alright.  

The guys with 30k of M193 stashed can get a little defensive, but the truth is, there's no such thing as too much ammo.

no doubt about it, it would suck to get popped 5 rounds in in a SHTF scenario.

Rob, I'm not saying there's such a thing as TOO MUCH ammo.  Lord no, it just can't be.  I am saying that "SHTF " designation needs to be reserved for that ammo that you'll stake your life on and are willing to move with you if necessary.  10 cases of SA 7.62 and 11 cases of 5.56 can't all be SHTF.  Lord you'd need a deuce and a half to move it and if you're by yourself it'd take you a while to load it without getting a hernia.  If you've got a hideout planned and ammo prepositioned there then OK it's SHTF but the logistics of having or having to move that much ammo is way more than the average guy can handle.  Choose your SHTF ammo wisely and don't think that's the area you need to go "whorin" in.

Buy what you can afford, train when you can, Have 10 mags worth of SHTF Good quality ammo ready to go in a chest rig 100% of the time. Be smart.

My own little rule of thumb is any ammo left over that can't fit in magazines (at the ready) is no longer 'true' SHTF ammo.

Excess ammo is of course good - the more the better, but I don't plan on humping it through the God awful Arizona desert.

I'll concede that SHTF ammo could be  cases and cases held in reserve for when the ammo supply has dried up and/or priced out of sight (were almost there already). With your boatload of cases one expands his options: to keep practicing at your leisure or for barter (as good as cash?).

I think I'll work both angles

Quoted: My own little rule of thumb is any ammo left over that can't fit in magazines (at the ready) is no longer 'true' SHTF ammo. Excess ammo is of course good - the more the better, but I don't plan on humping it through the God awful Arizona desert. I'll concede that SHTF ammo could be  cases and cases held in reserve for when the ammo supply has dried up and/or priced out of sight (were almost there already). With your boatload of cases one expands his options: to keep practicing at your leisure or for barter (as good as cash?). I think I'll work both angles

good Christ, I'll have to try and unread that.


otherwise I'm gonna end up with $3000 in mags.

Sounds like a great rule.  Course, any rule that justifies buying gun stuff is a pretty good rule.

Quoted: Rob, I'm not saying there's such a thing as TOO MUCH ammo.  Lord no, it just can't be.  I am saying that "SHTF " designation needs to be reserved for that ammo that you'll stake your life on and are willing to move with you if necessary.  10 cases of SA 7.62 and 11 cases of 5.56 can't all be SHTF.  Lord you'd need a deuce and a half to move it and if you're by yourself it'd take you a while to load it without getting a hernia.  If you've got a hideout planned and ammo prepositioned there then OK it's SHTF but the logistics of having or having to move that much ammo is way more than the average guy can handle.  Choose your SHTF ammo wisely and don't think that's the area you need to go "whorin" in.

Understood.

Your point was well taken.


As others have said, if even 10% of an arfcommer's stash was used to take out zombies during a SHTF scenario, the bodies would be stacked so damn deep you'd have to fire in defilade.

Quoted: Quoted: My own little rule of thumb is any ammo left over that can't fit in magazines (at the ready) is no longer 'true' SHTF ammo. Excess ammo is of course good - the more the better, but I don't plan on humping it through the God awful Arizona desert. I'll concede that SHTF ammo could be  cases and cases held in reserve for when the ammo supply has dried up and/or priced out of sight (were almost there already). With your boatload of cases one expands his options: to keep practicing at your leisure or for barter (as good as cash?). I think I'll work both angles good Christ, I'll have to try and unread that. otherwise I'm gonna end up with $3000 in mags. Sounds like a great rule.  Course, any rule that justifies buying gun stuff is a pretty good rule.

There's a guy on Falfiles Marketplace (Wolfsburgbob/Akron Armory) selling NIB (box!) teflon Okays dated 12-04 for $10 ea.
Got a few for myself.
Go get em tiger!

Quoted: SHTF to me means havin as much ammo as possible, not the finest ammo possible. Now for goin to the sniper match then its the quality ammo i would take. For stashin away and stockin as much as you can go with the cheap wolf or cheap surplus you can find. Unless your makin $50 hr, livin at home in moms basement, only payment is the one on your 24" doves with the spinners then get the cheap stuff. Wolf runs 100% in all my guns and youll find most folks will say the same. Durin a SHTF kinda crisis, no one is gonna look over at you and see polymere coated cases comin out of your gun and say "Look at the cheap ass, hes usin wolf" Where as they have 2,000 rnds...youll have 4,000 rnds to defend your fortress. Just my .02

Absolutely agree!

Although I do have a large stash of brass cased milsurp .223 on hand (bought cheap and stacked deep) I have a larger stash of Wolf and it runs fine in all my guns. I also have my own reloads, Lake City 03 brass, Winchester primers, new milspec SS109 bullets and WC844 powder which are just as accurate or better than milsurp and produced at half the price.

For long range accuracy, I'll use .308 or 50BMG.

Any ammo will work when the shit hits the fan. Now for home defense a good ballestic tip bullet will do in the 223 . Your 9mm will do.  For real SHTF(invasions) U will need at least 5,000 rounds of each.

Quoted: DixieDawg, i have not put Wolf on paper to know how it groups, i know i can hit the 365 yrd and 500 yrd gongs with it all day with a 16" AR. Blacksnake, didnt mean to sound like i was barkin at ya, sorry, just get tired of people downin wolf when 30% of them never even tried it.

No offense taken, I am a fellow Wolf whore as well and I get tired of it too.  I just whore a little Prvi on the side too .

I'm really not planning on lugging thousands of rounds anywhere.  I am currently sitting with 1200 rounds of the federal wally world value packs.  I use this and keep around this amount on hand so that i am always a little ahead of how often wally world gets it in.  I guess my question is if you had no stash, what would your first thousand rounds be?  As I don't plan on keeping thousands of rounds of high quality stuff on hand cost really isn't a big factor.  A mag of this will be in the rifle, a few more in a bag I can take with me and the rest will be shot out of the rifle and kept in the closet.  So what do I need to buy 1K of?

I always find the way these types of posts tend to drift into very people arguing the same basic ideas.

For the original poster, the Black Hills would be great.  The main drawback would be the lack of water profing of the ammunition.  While not a bug deal if shooting from a bench, I'm sure the people working in the folds of Hurricaine Katrina were concerned about water profing, should they trip and fall (yes it happens).

Is wolf good for SHTF usage?  In my opinion, no.  Yes it can perform well fro training purposes, allowing the user to hit their target.  For training, especially under 100 yds, if it runs well in your rifle, then the cost savings will allow you to train more (good thing).

The bullets in the wolf ammunition does not fragment nearly as well as the bullets in M193 ammunition.  It is also rather dirty to shoot, in a gun design that spews the gunk into it's action.

Surplus has really lost it's appeal to me due to the insane pricing.  As a LEO, I can by Hornady TAP 75gr NATO spec sealed ammunition for about $ .58 per round.  When folks are asking #.45 - .50 per round for XM855 ammunition, then I really have to think about it abit.

The PRVI M193 AIM had seems like good stuff now that the new batch is actually loaded to 5.56mm spec.  There is said to be more coming in.

Do you need tens of thousands of rounds for SHTF?  Yes and No.  Do I have over 10k of 5.56mm? Yes.  Do I plan on carrying it all if SHTF?  Of course not!  DO I plan on being a refugee?  Only if ALL ELSE FAILED MISERABLY!

SHTF ammunition amounts falls into two distinct lines of thought.  

1) Have some type of carry rig (chest, ect.) to carry your extra magazines.  Have these magazines loaded and ready to go.  Add one extra magazine to throw into your rifle. (If you are throwing extra ammo into a BOB then include it hear.)

2) If you are staying put, have some extra ammunition to top off the one or two magazines you actually might have to shoot a couple of rounds from, once you return home.

3) If you ever plan on training, practicing with, or just plinking with and enjoying your AR15, you will need ammunition.  This is where stacking cases deep comes in.  We are not talking about fighting off the hoards here, but anti gun lawmakers who might restrict the sale of ammunition.  Or has ANYONE noticed the price of ammunition lately?  Last year, we read posts arguing if pricing will top $300-350 per k.  Now it's $400-450 per k.  I can remember complaining about paying $155 per case of Q3131A at a gun show when I got it at Bass Pro two months prior for $144.

Sorry for the rant, I'll go take my meds now...

No, not a rant, your right, we got a little off basis here. Im to blame in a large part but you covered it in all angles. Im still gonna hoard it all i can, and most of its gonna be cheap, nasty, dirty, unreliable, steel cased, non fragmenting, non accurate, stinky WOLF ammo. I luv the stuff

At $450 per K, TSHHTF. That'll be in a few weeks.

Whatever your preference, if this shit hits the fan you'll wish you had more of it.
Can't buy it cheap, but you still should stack it deep.

Quoted: My wise advice for all newbies wanting to start an ammo stash (year 2007 and beyond): Get good education, a degree, actually get the good job, don't marry if possible and fer godsakes DON'T have any kids!!

Wiser words have probably never been spoken.....
Unless it's "I Like Pie!"



Bear

I used to think that land(real estate, etc) and precious metals (gold & silver) were some of the only surefire hard assets to put your paper money into to insulate from inflation or SHTF.

I'm now adding ammunition in popular semi-auto calibers to that short list - 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, .45 etc.
Damn...wish I started piling up cases a year ago or two like I said above, it's as good as cash - more liquid than either RE or gold and does very well at holding it's value - if not doubling (plus you have the enormous supply to practice) with and security of knowing you're set in case....ummm.....you know what
JUST DON'T MORTGAGE THE HOUSE to buy ammo!!

Quoted: JUST DON'T MORTGAGE THE HOUSE to buy ammo!!

The newest derivative!

This is something that all of us think about, and you're gonna here a lot of opinions. I always try to be as "Practical as Possible" about this topic.

I have 1,000 rounds of XM193,
2000 rounds of .22
250 rounds of #8 Bird Shot
400 Rounds of .308, and
500 Rounds of .45ACP

You have to consider these issues IMHO...

1. What weapon will be my primary for getting out of town, and what can I realistically expect will be needed for a round count. If you think you need more than 1,000 rounds, you're probably not going to make it. If we;re REALLY being REAL....I think if you need more than 200 rounds you're probably toast!

2. You will have to have a food supply, and a .22 and 12 GA are my choices.

3. You may want to consider a "Stand Off" weapon like a .30 caliber to hunt with and to keep the bad guys far away from your position.

4. I think you should always have a side arm capable of Man Size Stopping Power, but your ammo supply shouldn't be excessive. I think 500 rounds would be fine. If you need more, again I think you're not going to make it....with just your pistol.

And we haven't even started thinking about transporting our families, clothing, food, water (this will take up 30% to 40% of your available cargo area if you're smart), extra fuel, camping supplies (Tent, Sleeping Bags etc., and pray it's not 20 below zero) and this doesn't leave a lot of room for SHTF ammo.

I know and have seen the hoards of ammo that many of us have on this forum. I have more than I noted above as well, but i can only hope that if I'm "Sent Packing" and need more ammo...I come across some of the members vacant homes here that had to leave most of their stash behind.

This is just one mans opinion, but the message is that IF you're going to prepare, make sure you can survive through it.

Tack