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Posted: 12/12/2013 8:18:11 AM EST
Would I be ok to purchase a short upper with out having the pistol lower already? What about storing that upper with other complete rifles in my safe until my lower is built? Thanks
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 8:34:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 8:34:59 AM EST by backbencher]
No. If the only way to assemble the parts you have results in a felony, don't do it. A stripped lower is cheap insurance. Buy a stripped lower, then the upper, then build the lower.

ETA - I'm presuming you already own ARs. If you own NO AR rifles, then you can go ahead & buy your upper now.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 8:37:47 AM EST
Thanks for the reply. You confirmed my suspicions, I found a good deal on an upper and wanted to pull the trigger but am glad I asked first.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 8:41:14 AM EST
If ATF would be in your home today and you had an upper with all other fully built rifles, then you could make a illegal SBR and have no way to prove your intent. At least, purchase a stripped lower first, then the upper. You don't have to finish it out until you are ready, but you have the parts to make a pistol. I'd also get a pistol buffer tube as well. I also wouldn't advise carrying a short upper without a pistol lower in the vicinity outside the home.


Link Posted: 12/12/2013 8:42:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 8:43:58 AM EST by delirious1]
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Originally Posted By Stag556:
Thanks for the reply. You confirmed my suspicions, I found a good deal on an upper and wanted to pull the trigger but am glad I asked first.
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You can order it. Leave it in a sealed box until the lower arrives.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 9:59:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 10:02:43 AM EST by OhShoot]
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Originally Posted By delirious1:


You can order it. Leave it in a sealed box until the lower arrives.
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Originally Posted By delirious1:
Originally Posted By Stag556:
Thanks for the reply. You confirmed my suspicions, I found a good deal on an upper and wanted to pull the trigger but am glad I asked first.


You can order it. Leave it in a sealed box until the lower arrives.


".. an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or
(b) convert complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)"

"Close proximity" is not defined, so I consider my entire property as "close enough". And there's nothing in that ruling that excludes packaged parts.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 10:45:52 AM EST
Here ya go, in case you want to read the entire ATF ruling.

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 11:19:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Here ya go, in case you want to read the entire ATF ruling.

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
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Thanks
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 11:34:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 11:53:13 AM EST by delirious1]
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:


".. an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or
(b) convert complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)"

"Close proximity" is not defined, so I consider my entire property as "close enough". And there's nothing in that ruling that excludes packaged parts.

- OS
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Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By delirious1:
Originally Posted By Stag556:
Thanks for the reply. You confirmed my suspicions, I found a good deal on an upper and wanted to pull the trigger but am glad I asked first.


You can order it. Leave it in a sealed box until the lower arrives.


".. an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or
(b) convert complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)"

"Close proximity" is not defined, so I consider my entire property as "close enough". And there's nothing in that ruling that excludes packaged parts.

- OS





Only if his aggregate of parts contains a rifle stock. A free stock would be a no no included in a kit if a short barrel rifle was included. Notice I said to order a pistol buffer tube.

"The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a
Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The
inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit
within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26
U.S.C. 5845(c).
Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly
of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the
definition of “firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a
barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been
made"


take the upper to work in the sealed box until the lower comes in if there's a question. Or leave it in the trunk of your car. Whatever. Basically, if you find a nice upper, order it, keep it in the box and store it away from the other rifles. If you want to be safe at a different location until a virgin lower arrives.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 12:57:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 1:04:08 PM EST by iNeXile556]
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Originally Posted By delirious1:





Only if his aggregate of parts contains a rifle stock. A free stock would be a no no included in a kit if a short barrel rifle was included. Notice I said to order a pistol buffer tube.

"The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a
Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled "rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The
inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit
within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26
U.S.C. 5845(c).
Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly
of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the
definition of "firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a
barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been
made"


take the upper to work in the sealed box until the lower comes in if there's a question. Or leave it in the trunk of your car. Whatever. Basically, if you find a nice upper, order it, keep it in the box and store it away from the other rifles. If you want to be safe at a different location until a virgin lower arrives.
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Originally Posted By delirious1:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By delirious1:
Originally Posted By Stag556:
Thanks for the reply. You confirmed my suspicions, I found a good deal on an upper and wanted to pull the trigger but am glad I asked first.


You can order it. Leave it in a sealed box until the lower arrives.


".. an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or
(b) convert complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)"

"Close proximity" is not defined, so I consider my entire property as "close enough". And there's nothing in that ruling that excludes packaged parts.

- OS





Only if his aggregate of parts contains a rifle stock. A free stock would be a no no included in a kit if a short barrel rifle was included. Notice I said to order a pistol buffer tube.

"The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a
Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled "rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The
inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit
within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26
U.S.C. 5845(c).
Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly
of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the
definition of "firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a
barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been
made"


take the upper to work in the sealed box until the lower comes in if there's a question. Or leave it in the trunk of your car. Whatever. Basically, if you find a nice upper, order it, keep it in the box and store it away from the other rifles. If you want to be safe at a different location until a virgin lower arrives.
Um...no. Your reading that completely wrong. In the OP's case all he has is complete rifle(s). There is no way to use that short upper without making a NFA firearm. With that scenario he would be in possession of an unregistered (taxed) SBR.

What the ruling you quote is saying is that the Contender, which was sold as a pistol to begin with, was also packaged with a 16" barrel and a butt stock, therefore the "kit" was ruled as not being a SBR because all the parts could be used for to put together legal firearms.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 1:18:37 PM EST
Yeah but the kit had a buttstock. What I'm saying is don't have those parts available. The buttstock.

I know that he has fully assembled rifles in his safe. The premise behind what I quoted is that he shouldn't have parts lying around to assemble a full rifle with buttstock. Therefore, he should only have purchased materials consisting of an upper, Virgin lower and a pistol buffer tube. When those things are present, he can assemble a pistol. No matter what he has in his safe. Just as long as he doesn't purchase a rifle buffer and buttstock. If he receives his upper first, it's safe to keep that away from his other rifles and wait for his lower. It is safe to purchase an upper, just keep it away from the rest of his rifles. I suggested in the box and perhaps at work or in the trunk of his car. Does he have means to put the upper on his already built lowers? Yes, but it's best not to have parts lying around to assemble a rifle. At some point, he's going to have a fully built pistol. It should be paired to a lower that has never been a rifle while in the safe. Now, if he finds a good deal on an upper and needs to buy it NOW, he needs to keep it separate and not around parts that can be made into a rifle or slapped on to one of his other lowers.

I would really suggest building the lower first as I have done then getting an upper. If he has a good deal on an upper and wants to jump on it, just keep it away from the rest of his rifles to be safe until his lower has been made.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:40:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 3:08:15 PM EST by iNeXile556]
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Originally Posted By delirious1:
Yeah but the kit had a buttstock. What I'm saying is don't have those parts available. The buttstock.

I know that he has fully assembled rifles in his safe. The premise behind what I quoted is that he shouldn't have parts lying around to assemble a full rifle with buttstock. Therefore, he should only have purchased materials consisting of an upper, Virgin lower and a pistol buffer tube. When those things are present, he can assemble a pistol. No matter what he has in his safe. Just as long as he doesn't purchase a rifle buffer and buttstock. If he receives his upper first, it's safe to keep that away from his other rifles and wait for his lower. It is safe to purchase an upper, just keep it away from the rest of his rifles. I suggested in the box and perhaps at work or in the trunk of his car. Does he have means to put the upper on his already built lowers? Yes, but it's best not to have parts lying around to assemble a rifle. At some point, he's going to have a fully built pistol. It should be paired to a lower that has never been a rifle while in the safe. Now, if he finds a good deal on an upper and needs to buy it NOW, he needs to keep it separate and not around parts that can be made into a rifle or slapped on to one of his other lowers.

I would really suggest building the lower first as I have done then getting an upper. If he has a good deal on an upper and wants to jump on it, just keep it away from the rest of his rifles to be safe until his lower has been made.
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If that was the case then your right, although a spare stock would not matter. It still has a legal use on any of the rifles. The OP's problem however is that he wants to buy the upper before buying a stripped lower. without the lower he is in possession of a untaxed SRB.

If he has the upper "in close proximity" without the lower then the he is in violation. In the trunk of his car would be in close proximity as much as in another room of his house or the garage, barn, shed.... there are already precedents set on that matter.

Left at work or a friend's house would be OK.


ETA: I just re-read your original post. That would be fine as you state it. The comment I made about the "spare stock" above still stands though.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 2:47:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By delirious1:
Yeah but the kit had a buttstock. What I'm saying is don't have those parts available. The buttstock.
View Quote


If you have a complete AR rifle you have a buttstock.

Exile nailed it for you -- it doesn't matter if parts are installed or spare, or degree of difficulty to rearrange them -- they all count.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:30:15 PM EST
From Miriam Webster.

Definition of PROXIMITY

1
: situated close to : proximate
2
: next to or nearest the point of attachment or origin, a central point, or the point of view; especially : located toward the center of the body — compare distal

Several other websites say "next to." The phrasing seems to be a subjective measurement. There's no definition that exacts a measurement to proximity. Cabelas is down the street from my house but not next to it. Some would say that's in the proximity. I don't consider it next to my home. My garage, where I keep my safe is not next to my car or truck I park at the curb. I would consider a butt stock sitting on my work bench next to a short barrel upper in proximity. Not an upper in my garage proximal to an upper in the trunk of my car parked on the curb outside my home. One could also say a friends home or work could be in the proximity within the same city, but by definition, they aren't. Point is that it's ambiguous as to what distance proximity is measured. The point is, you shouldn't have those parts "next to" each other.

Definition of next to, which equals proximity is

1: immediately following or adjacent to


I'm just having fun with this. It makes you think. The link at ATF.gov is poorly written and not definitive and open to conjecture. The main point is, from reading it, is don't have parts next each other in the process of making an NFA item without a stamp. Having a short upper in my car is not next to the guns in my safe.

If there are presidents on this matter defining proximity, then I'd like to see them.

Lastly, I'm just having fun with this because I have nothing better to do. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just debating the verbiage here and how obscure it is. People will do what they want and figure things out for themselves. The just of it is, don't try to assemble an illegal weapon. I have several items in my possession that could be used to rob a convince store, but having those things dosent make it a process or premeditation.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:43:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2013 3:44:19 PM EST by OhShoot]
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Originally Posted By delirious1:
From Miriam Webster.

Definition of PROXIMITY .....
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No need to study too hard on it, the federal prosecutor will define it for you. :)

I would not have a "constructive possession" situation anywhere on my property, myself. Easy enough to do, so why not CYA completely?

Also, "attachable" is not defined either, so I wouldn't count on a "pistol" buffer tube as being some ultimate defense either. Tape will attach a stock, for example. Perhaps merely bracing it against tube "attaches" it, if the axe they want to grind is you.

In the AR pistol genre, with full auto parts and cans aside, this comes down to only short barrel, stock, and VFG as possible gotchas. Simply don't possess any of the three unless you have a clear cut legal "useful purpose" for them and all is good, eh?

- OS

Link Posted: 12/12/2013 3:55:47 PM EST
Fair enough
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 4:41:35 PM EST
How good is this deal you found? lol
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 4:53:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/13/2013 8:15:29 AM EST by gtfoxy]
Order a stripped lower with it.

Gotta love the "guilty until impossibly proven innocent" in this regard. Completely Un-Consitutional in regards to innocent until proven guilty.
Link Posted: 12/14/2013 6:48:32 AM EST
Buy the upper and have it sent to your preferred FFL where he/she can keep it in THEIR possession until you complete your pistol lower.
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