Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/10/2005 4:23:26 AM EDT
On in the market for a new rifle. I'm all about utility and versatility--so I like to buy as few guns as possible to be used for as many purposes as possible. And today I decided to buy something I said I'd probably never buy--a tactical/military style rifle semi-auto machine gun. I want to buy it because 1. I want my son(s) to have one in the case they are made illegal to buy in the next few years and 2.
I have a 30-06 bolt action and want a larger caliber/quicker shooting rifle to hunt brown bear, moose, etc. And 3. I think they look cool
;-)

Presently, I'm not considering the .223 caliber, for it doesn't have enough power in my mind to be used a hunting round for the bigger game. So I'm sticking to the 30 calibers.

I've noticed there are several dozen new manufacturers of the "AR"
line and am at a loss for making a decision as to who to go with.

Also, I'm debating if I want to buy a "AK" model instead/in addition to. If they are as good and versatile, I would consider. But I lean toward an American made firearm that has good direct service availability and quality of course.

Questions:
1. Is there a tac rifle manufactured in the 30-06 round? (just curious because I couldn't find any doing google searches) 2. What are the best manufacturers & calibers in your opinion? I'm considering the Beowulf .50 caliber, is it a good shooting gun with quality?
4. Should I buy it equiped with the scope, light, sling, and flare launcher or buy them aftermarket (what's more cost effective)?
5. Should I get a short, medium, or long barrel (and what is considered those lengths)?
6. My budget is $2,000--is that sufficient?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:35:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 4:40:46 AM EDT by Tweak]
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:29:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SandW:
On in the market for a new rifle. I'm all about utility and versatility--so I like to buy as few guns as possible to be used for as many purposes as possible. And today I decided to buy something I said I'd probably never buy--a tactical/military style rifle semi-auto machine gun. I want to buy it because 1. I want my son(s) to have one in the case they are made illegal to buy in the next few years and 2.
I have a 30-06 bolt action and want a larger caliber/quicker shooting rifle to hunt brown bear, moose, etc. And 3. I think they look cool ;-)



OK, buy an Armalite AR10 and get similar ballistics to the 30-06 in a .308 platform. BTW, based on what you say above, you are NOT looking at buying a machine gun. You are looking to buy a semi-automatic rifle or carbine.


Presently, I'm not considering the .223 caliber, for it doesn't have enough power in my mind to be used a hunting round for the bigger game. So I'm sticking to the 30 calibers.


OK, buy an Armalite AR10.


I've noticed there are several dozen new manufacturers of the "AR"
line and am at a loss for making a decision as to who to go with.

Also, I'm debating if I want to buy a "AK" model instead/in addition to. If they are as good and versatile, I would consider. But I lean toward an American made firearm that has good direct service availability and quality of course.



Read my answer above.


Questions:
1. Is there a tac rifle manufactured in the 30-06 round? (just curious because I couldn't find any doing google searches)



As shown, you could get a Garand. Or you could get higher capacity with similar ballistics in a .308 AR. My opinion is Armalite is one of the best in that market.


2. What are the best manufacturers & calibers in your opinion? I'm considering the Beowulf .50 caliber, is it a good shooting gun with quality?


Beowulf is nice, but seems like it bigger than 30cal...


4. Should I buy it equiped with the scope, light, sling, and flare launcher or buy them aftermarket (what's more cost effective)?


Not sure where #3 went but why do you want a "flare launcher" for a purpose built hunting/tactical rifle? You should get all those things aftermarket in any case...


5. Should I get a short, medium, or long barrel (and what is considered those lengths)?


Who knows? You need to do some research. There is a lot to read here. Read it!


6. My budget is $2,000--is that sufficient?


Should be.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:44:04 AM EDT

Given the "all-purpose" nature of your request my answer would be an AR10A4 in .308 with an 18"-20" barrel. You would have just about any option as far as sighting systems are concerned. Railed HG are readily available to mount bipods, lights, VFG, etc. if you feel the need for these things.

If the .308 is not big enough you could go to the .300RSUM but you will lose some of the "all-purpose" nature you would have with the .308.

The M1 Garand is great if sticking to 30-06 is more important than "all-purpose".

My $.02.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:19:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:12:58 AM EDT by Bigant]

Originally Posted By SandW:
On in the market for a new rifle. I'm all about utility and versatility--so I like to buy as few guns as possible to be used for as many purposes as possible. And today I decided to buy something I said I'd probably never buy--a tactical/military style rifle semi-auto machine gun. I want to buy it because 1. I want my son(s) to have one in the case they are made illegal to buy in the next few years and 2.
I have a 30-06 bolt action and want a larger caliber/quicker shooting rifle to hunt brown bear, moose, etc. And 3. I think they look cool
;-)

Presently, I'm not considering the .223 caliber, for it doesn't have enough power in my mind to be used a hunting round for the bigger game. So I'm sticking to the 30 calibers.

I've noticed there are several dozen new manufacturers of the "AR"
line and am at a loss for making a decision as to who to go with.

Also, I'm debating if I want to buy a "AK" model instead/in addition to. If they are as good and versatile, I would consider. But I lean toward an American made firearm that has good direct service availability and quality of course.

Questions:
1. Is there a tac rifle manufactured in the 30-06 round? (just curious because I couldn't find any doing google searches) 2. What are the best manufacturers & calibers in your opinion? I'm considering the Beowulf .50 caliber, is it a good shooting gun with quality?
4. Should I buy it equiped with the scope, light, sling, and flare launcher or buy them aftermarket (what's more cost effective)?
5. Should I get a short, medium, or long barrel (and what is considered those lengths)?
6. My budget is $2,000--is that sufficient?



Well you probably are going to want to buy the .300RSUM since I would have to say that the .308 is on the low side for Brown Bear and Moose...now with that being said, I am sure that their is going to be a WSM made for the AR10 platform sometime in the future...

The Beowulf should be able to do what you want but at a limited range....under 150-200 yards plus Alexander Arms have already developed about 10 reloads for the wulf when you by the reloading dies....

Ant
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:56:06 PM EDT
Well, I've done some research. I was referring to a AR style 30-06. I've seen them in the 308 and larger calibers, but not specifically 30-06. The Garand is fine, but I want the modern look of the AR with pistol grip.

I'll look into the other recommendations. Thanks,
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:05:03 PM EDT
When I stated machine gun I was meaning semi. But can't they be modified to be fully-auto with the right parts, skill, and permits?

Did you mean .300RSUM? I couldn't find a .300RUAM. What is the ballistical differences between the .308, .300RSUM, and .50 cal the Beowulf uses? Are you saying the .50cal Beowulf is only useful up to 200yards? I couldn't find a good comparison anywhere of the calibers side by side.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:24:45 AM EDT


If the .308 is not big enough you could go to the .300RSUM but you will lose some of the "all-purpose" nature you would have with the .308.



It's doubtful anyone will ever have an AR with a cartridge as long as a 30-06 (even though I've heard that originally the AR was chambered in 30-06, I can not confirm this). The ballistics on the .308 and 30-06 are very similar.

Check out the Remington website. THey should have some ballistics info on the .300RSUM. Just be sure when comparing it to the .308, you have similar variables like barrel length, height of site over bore, etc.

I may get flamed for this but IMHO the .50 is closer to a shotgun with slugs than a rifle. It certainly has a purpose but long range work is not it.


When I stated machine gun I was meaning semi. But can't they be modified to be fully-auto with the right parts, skill, and permits?


Try buying one of those "legal" drop-in auto sears from SHotgun News and let me know how that works out.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:25:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SandW:
When I stated machine gun I was meaning semi. But can't they be modified to be fully-auto with the right parts, skill, and permits?

Did you mean .300RSUM? I couldn't find a .300RUAM. What is the ballistical differences between the .308, .300RSUM, and .50 cal the Beowulf uses? Are you saying the .50cal Beowulf is only useful up to 200yards? I couldn't find a good comparison anywhere of the calibers side by side.



I mis spoke....but here is the Ballistic comparison of the 308 vs .300 RSUM

You have to remember that the .50 Beowulf is built using the same platform as the AR15 so you have length limitations. Beowulf Ballistic info and yes for the size game you are wanting to shoot I'd say 200 yards is the limitation

Ant

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:22:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:11:51 AM EDT by mousehunter]
The issue with the Beowulf is ballistic coefficient and velocity. It starts out slow and has a lot of drag. That said, it starts out with tons of kinetic energy and will probably have plenty of knock down power further out that you can shoot. If you are good a judging ranges, and if you have the right equipment, you can compensate for the big bores (mouse guns just have no energy left at long range to do anything, even if you hit it). Good shooting form is probably way more important that the caliber.

The 458 Socom is equivalent to a 45-70. 45-70 has no problem reaching out 1000 yards accurately (course it takes a couple seconds to get there, and you have to aim about 12 ft high - ok, wag was off, found a good table, closer to 65ft holdover linky - also should mention that accurate range calcualtion is critical - estimates will not cut it (roughly 1 inch drop per foot at that range)). That said, I think the 458 has a better ballistic coefficient than the Beowulf, so would retain more energy down range (but suspect both are more than enough at any range I am willing to shoot)

Table was for 300 grain bp loads, personally I prefer 400 grain and load them somewhat hotter on my 45-70.

As far as ballistic coefficient, it is hard to beat the 308 (or the 50bmg ) Just nicely shaped bullets.


Guess the moral of that story is mortors can be accurate, but bet they are hell to aim. Realistically, mere humans are probably fairly limited.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:55:26 AM EDT
Ok. I think I've narrowed it down to buying a .308 rifle. Question, is there complication in buying the NATO round or the .308 WIN? Are the modern AR-type 308s usually manufactured in the .308 win rather the NATO round?

One reason I'm considering the .308 is because I have a 30-06. I like the idea of being able to shoot the 308 or 7.63x39 out of my 30-06 Remington 700 with the adaptors available.

Does anyone have experience with these adaptors? Do they allow for just as accurate shooting as if using in the intended rifle?

One more question I searched for but couldn't find a good answer for. What are the average to maximum accurate ranges one could expect from a 30-06, .308, and 7.62x39?

I want to be able to reach out with at least one my rifles. To date I haven't had the need, but I'm considering some hunt trips that may require a 500 yard shot. From what I gather, 30-06 has the greatest useful range of the 3, but I'm not sure.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 11:27:34 AM EDT

7.62 NATO and .308 are interchangable. My 20" A4 Armalite is capable of sub MOA when I allow it to be...that is with Hornady 168 BTHP. Surplus opens up to just over MOA.

With a 20"+ barrel and given the fact that you have enough skills to do it, the .308 should get you out to about 800 yards.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 11:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bjwar10:
7.62 NATO and .308 are interchangable. My 20" A4 Armalite is capable of sub MOA when I allow it to be...that is with Hornady 168 BTHP. Surplus opens up to just over MOA.

With a 20"+ barrel and given the fact that you have enough skills to do it, the .308 should get you out to about 800 yards.



Not for killing game!

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:16:18 PM EDT
So .308 WIN and 7.62 are exactly the same round? I thought there were slight differences? I read this on a BB some time ago.

Question about the manufacturers. Colt was the original maker of the M16 that has evolved to the modern A2, A4, and various others I've noted. Are they the best source to buy from? Or are any of the larger makers like Armalite, Webarms, Busharms, Rock River just as good?

And if I buy a complete rifle from any of them, should I be able to swap the barrel units from any other maker as-needed? Or are there little things that have to be matched up to have multiple barrels?

What are the real differences between A2 and A4?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:21:04 PM EDT
It depends on the size of the animal. Assuming good marksmanship (that you hit the vitals) the .308 shoot be good to 300m on BIG game, an perhaps 400m on deer sized game. However, at these distances there is no margin for error--if you do not hit the vitals, the animal will die and rot in the wild.

30.06 is essentially the same as .308-the animal can't tell the difference. Up close the 06 might have an advantage on the larger game our continent has to offer, if it is loaded with 180+gr bullets (for penetration). The .308 can't handle that heavy a bullet.

7.62x39mm is mostly limited to deer sized game at less than 200m. With 150gr bullets in sporterized SKS's, Russians kill quite a few moose every year, but they sneak up close in a group and everyone unloads at it. I can't recomend the 7.62x39mm for larger than deer sized game. And yes, I have seen the round used on three or four deer, and they always fell, but required a finishing shot much more often than my 7x57mm or the 30-06 that my father wielded at the time. Had it not been for a misfire in a Ruger mini-30, I too would have killed a deer with this caliber. Until the introduction of the 6.8, this would have been my choice for a lightly recoiling rifle for deer hunting.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:10:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:48:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SandW:

I want to be able to reach out with at least one my rifles. To date I haven't had the need, but I'm considering some hunt trips that may require a 500 yard shot. From what I gather, 30-06 has the greatest useful range of the 3, but I'm not sure.



Ah, another person that needs to stay away from hunting.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:48:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:12:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkTx:

Originally Posted By SandW:

I want to be able to reach out with at least one my rifles. To date I haven't had the need, but I'm considering some hunt trips that may require a 500 yard shot. From what I gather, 30-06 has the greatest useful range of the 3, but I'm not sure.



Ah, another person that needs to stay away from hunting.



Well the magnums surely allow a flat trajectory and enough energy at 500yds, but I don't think I would use a .308, 30-06, or 50 Beowulf for a potential 500yd hunting area.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 3:47:36 PM EDT by IceMan_1]
SandW,
So .308 WIN and 7.62 are exactly the same round? I thought there were slight differences?
One reason I'm considering the .308 is because I have a 30-06. I like the idea of being able to shoot the 308 or 7.63x39 out of my 30-06 Remington 700 with the adaptors available

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't see this answered if I missed it sorry , but if I'm not mistaken .308 and 7.62x61 nato are essecentialy the same , but not 7.62x39 . Just for clairification .
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:52:09 PM EDT

SandW,
So .308 WIN and 7.62 are exactly the same round? I thought there were slight differences?
One reason I'm considering the .308 is because I have a 30-06. I like the idea of being able to shoot the 308 or 7.63x39 out of my 30-06 Remington 700 with the adaptors available

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't see this answered if I missed it sorry , but if I'm not mistaken .308 and 7.62x61 nato are essecentialy the same , but not 7.62x39 . Just for clairification .




Normally the commercial .308 will be loaded to higher pressures than the 7.62 NATO.

And yes, the 7.62x39 is totally different.
Top Top