Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 3/1/2006 5:56:55 PM EDT
I have been looking around the site for many weeks and I know there are many posts about picking a first AR. Sorry if the topic is getting old but here is what Im looking for.

I need a rifle to shoot local High Power matches at my club. Nothing fancy, they shot 100 yards only. I would also like to shoot the rifle in 3 gun matches. Ranges there are from 25 to 200 yards.

I am looking for a rifle that although not perfect for each could be competative in each. Especially looking for barrel length suggestions, and anything else that you would feel is needed. I am thinking flat top with A2 detachable hand is a good place to start but I may be wrong there already.

Thanks for the help!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:27:45 PM EDT
I'm probably wrong, but I thought NRA High Power limits you to 20" A2/A4(3) Service Rifle?

I believe most of the major manufactures (ArmaLite, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, etc) make a National Match rifle for competition.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:11:57 AM EDT
Thanks AR15_Fanatic. I have those rifles on their web sites. My club is not real strict on the equipment rules so I may be able to stray a little.

Would those DCM rifles be to heavy for three gun use? I was thinking maybe a 20" Bushmaster A3 would be usable for both.

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:10:14 AM EDT
A heavy barreled 20” isn’t my ideal for a 3-gun match. With the maximum range you specified (200 yards) I would look more at a 16” A4(3) than a 20”, you’ll have less weight out front and will be able to put the rifle on target faster.

Plus, with the flattop you’ll be able to add the optic of your choice (Aimpoint, EOTech, ACOG, etc.) to be even faster in the 3-gun match.

However, if you spend more time competing in High Power matches, and your range is sub 600 yards, then a government profile A4(3) wouldn’t be a bad plan. You have the full sight radius for using irons, you can mount an optic for 3-gun, and the rifle is lighter than a NM version so it’s still viable in a 3-gun match.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 9:30:54 AM EDT
Thanks AR15_Fanatic, I have read about the gov't profile being lighter and sounds like a good comprimise for both. I was looking at Bushmaster's sight and did not see any gov't profile rifles. Any other manufactures that you would suggest. Also saw Bushmaster V match 16" that seemed to be a good comprimise also. It gives you a free-float and the shorter barrle. It would require an add on front site though.

Thanks.. This is all alittle overwhelming at first.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:41:56 AM EDT
Ok, I’ve looked around the net and in the EE and haven’t found any complete uppers with a government profile.

Bravo Co. (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/) was selling government profile uppers, so you might contact them.

It looks like, at least for now, everyone is sold out or doesn’t offer them.

You might contact Bushmaster and see if you could get a 20” A3 with government profile sent to your FFL.

I suspect that most 20” you will find are HBAR, have you shopped around at your local dealers?? You could also ask in the OH HTF and see if anyone has one they’re willing to sell.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:47:31 AM EDT
Just received an e-mail from Bushmaster:

The 20" A3 rifles # BCWA3S 20 have 20" HBAR 1 X 9 twist barrels.
The 20" A3 rifles # BCWA3S 20A2 have Government profile 1 X 9 twist barrels.
The 20" A3 rifles # BCWA3S 20A2X have Government profile 1 X 7 twist barrels.

Thank you,
Jim Eden, Tech Support
1-800-883-6229

So, if you look for the latter two you should be GTG.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:05:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By getty:
Would those DCM rifles be to heavy for three gun use? I was thinking maybe a 20" Bushmaster A3 would be usable for both.




IMHO they would be.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:24:11 PM EDT
Thanks for all of the help. I am still trying to get all the terminalogy correct. I think I am going to call Bushmaster and see about a 20" target, gov't profile with free-float. I think this rifle will be the best compromise for 3-gun and high Power. Last thing is to decide on the twist.

Thanks again
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 1:09:13 PM EDT
If you are going to use the heavier match bullets, the 1x7 twist would be better.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:10:44 PM EDT
After more reading 1/7 sounds good for heavier bullets but I think most of my time will be spent shooting 55 gr stuff. I talked to Bushmaster and it is a 4 week wait on the 1/9 so I think I am going to order this rifle.

Bushmaster 20" A3 Gov't Profile
1/9 Twist
Free Floating Handgaurds.

Do you think the free floating handguards are a waste for a rifle used mostly in informal high power matches at 200 yards and 3-gun?

Thanks again for all the suggestions.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:29:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By getty:
After more reading 1/7 sounds good for heavier bullets but I think most of my time will be spent shooting 55 gr stuff. I talked to Bushmaster and it is a 4 week wait on the 1/9 so I think I am going to order this rifle.

Bushmaster 20" A3 Gov't Profile
1/9 Twist
Free Floating Handgaurds.

Do you think the free floating handguards are a waste for a rifle used mostly in informal high power matches at 200 yards and 3-gun?

Thanks again for all the suggestions.



If you're going to wait on a rifle due to twist rate, I'd go with the 1:7. However, 1:9 should stabilize bullets up to 69 grains easily. If you want to use 75 or 77gr, you might want 1:8 or 1:7....

TS
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:56:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By getty:
Do you think the free floating handguards are a waste for a rifle used mostly in informal high power matches at 200 yards and 3-gun?



Will you be using a sling? If so then it's not a waste.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:05:37 PM EDT
Bushmaster said they have 1:7 available now. Will the 1:7 shoot 55 gr bullets. From other posts I have read they do not advise lighter bullets with 1:7.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:16:24 PM EDT
I shoot almost exclusively 55 grain bullets. I have 1:7 and 1:8 barrels. No problems whatsoever.

TS
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:17:29 PM EDT
Welcome
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:26:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 5:30:49 PM EDT by 200-10x]
Getty...

You may be able to use the same rifle for both but it will be a compromise for 3-Gun.

NRA High Power is VERY strict about configuration and you may be surprised by your club not bending in the rules. That being said, if you are at all serious about shoooting high power you'll save money in the long run by buying a high quality upper from Compass Lake or White Oak Precision . Many many people shoot all the way to Expert even Master using the Rock River Arms National Match AR-15, and it's pretty reasonable. The Bushmaster trigger isn't the best without work.

As regards using the same rifle in both 3 Gun and HP: You WILL need an upper with a float tube in order to sling up properly. This adds weight to the rifle. A properly prepared rifle for HP also has lead in the buttstock and under the handguards. My rifle comes in at about 12.5 lbs. The rear site aperture is small, and front site post often thin (depending on preferences) and not the best for quick aquisision of targets in a 3Gun. It certainly can be done but, as you can see, may represent quite a compromise.

That being said, you can shoot both HP and 3Gun "casually" with a "run what you brung" with a partially specialized AR on the HP end, as long as you follow the rules.

Also, a little searching brought up these threads about CMP/DCM:
ARFCOM Thread
ARFCOM Thread
ARFCOM Thread
ARFCOM Thread

Also, go to the "General" tab above, and scroll down to Competition Shooting the the Accurate AR. WAY to many threads there for me to cut and paste for you. There are threads about both HP and 3gun. You might also look under the "Hometown" tab to see who else is near by that might give advice.

Happy to help. When people talk about "BRD" (Black Rifle Disease) they have no idea how bad the strain is that sets in when you start to compete, LOL.

Welcome to it, it's absolutely the most fun you can have!

ETA: You might slow down JUST a bit.... and investigate a little more. There are many here who will give you advice. Be a little reluctant to go with the "I think" or "I've heard". LOTS of guys here shoot both. Your quick purchase of a Bushmaster for what you need may need a little rethinking.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:53:30 AM EDT
A 16" barrel is legal. The rule states a maximum length of 20". I have an E-Mail that states a 16" barrel is allowed in DCM competition. A 16" dissipator is legal because it retains the normal sight radius and uses standard hand guards. You can get a dissipator barrel with a M4 profile for lighter weight. This profile barrel should meet all of your needs. You can float it and have different hand guards for DCM and 3 gun competition.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:06:42 AM EDT
The CMP rulebook states it has to be an M-16A2 or M-16A4 or civilian equivilent.

So no Dissy.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:16:50 AM EDT
200-10x brings up some good points, foremost that this is a compromise gun. You’re looking for a gun that performs at two very distinct types of shooting (long-range accuracy vs. short/medium range speed) so any gun you choose will be a compromise in one or both events.

The government profile free-floated flattop compromises at both events. It doesn’t have the tightest chamber so accuracy won’t be as good as the RRA NM, but it does have a lighter barrel so your not looking at a 12 lb behemoth in the 3 Gun. The trigger isn’t the best, but it is reliable. In the future, as your understanding of the AR15 grows, you’ll upgrade various parts including the trigger to better suit your needs.

My assumption is that you have limited funding for a rifle and that over time, as your skills, interests, and bank account grow, you’ll be able to upgrade parts and add additional rifles to fit specific needs (like a dedicated HP and a dedicated 3 Gun). This route will cost you more in the long run if you only plan to use this rifle for competition, but I suspect you’ll also what a rifle that you can use for casual shooting and maybe varmint hunting -- in the future this can become that rifle.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 10:26:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Krazny13:
The CMP rulebook states it has to be an M-16A2 or M-16A4 or civilian equivilent.

So no Dissy.



That isn't true...

It only specifies "...or commercial rifle of the same type and caliber" "Barrel length must not exceed 20"" "Internal modifications may be made to improve functioning and accuracy" "A special match barrel may be installed"

Nothing here says that the gas block can not be in the carbine position as long as you are using standard issue type hand guards ...


16" barrels are A-OK. Like I said, I E-Mailed CMP and they specifically said that a 16" barrel is fine.

I just E-Mailed them again and asked specifically about the gas block being in a position other than "as-issued". I will post their reply...
Top Top