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Posted: 9/5/2013 5:12:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 5:29:30 AM EDT by Bstrang6]
I have a brand new rifle, new frontier armory lower and rock river arms 16 inch upper.

I was having some feeding issues, where the round would get cockeyed in the feeding And bind the action up, then had a casing fail to leave the chamber, ending the day for the rifle. This is at around 60 rounds, maybe 70-80. Pretty sure if memory serves me correctly, the issues started towards the end of mag 2. Was using American ar223 ammo, as well as Tulammo, Tulammo ran fine, the issues were on the brass 223. I have some federal, Winchester, pmc, independence, and Tulammo, what should I use on a new rifle?

Is it possible that this isn't an issue and the rifle will break in and run fin after a few more rounds?

I'm going to the range Sunday hopefully and be able to test more. I plan on lubeing the hell out of the Bcg before the next trip.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:06:28 AM EDT
which buffer do you have in it and what length gas system ? was it lubed when you went out to shoot ? what bolt/bolt carrier do you have ? did you clean and lube the upper and bcg when you got it ?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 9:17:33 AM EDT
I'm far from an expert on ARs, but could it be the brass is able to expand more than the steel casing due to pressure, which is causing the bolt to short stroke?  Was the gas block factory installed or did you put it on?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 12:16:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 12:20:13 PM EDT by MP9cBilly]
Both of those issues can be caused by the timing of the cycle. Short stroking? The BCG coming forward too soon catching the top of the round instead of back, and bolt wanting to pull case from chamber too soon.. and losing its grip on it, leaving it behind.

If it's not short stroking, maybe a heavier spring and buffer and stronger extractor spring - this will slow the action down, increase dwell time. The bolt will catch the rear of the round, and it won't pull the case from chamber too soon.

I'm really new at this so I'm just thinking out loud.

More experienced will be along shortly.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 12:30:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 12:30:58 PM EDT by AR-4C]
You need to troubleshoot; go through the sequence to figure out what is happening.

http://www.kdeguns.com/ar-manual/M4%2016%2023Pchange8.pdf

TM 9-1005-319-23&P

CHAPTER 2 - FIELD TROUBLESHOOTING PROCEDURES FOR M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES
Page 0004
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 4:18:51 PM EDT
The complete upper was assembled when I got it. No I never lubed it I assumed it was done from the factory. So just hose it down inside and all over the BCG with CPL before going out nextime
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:57:48 PM EDT
For what it's worth, I can't seem to get the gun to break down by just removing the rear pin, I have to drop the front pin as well. I can how ever pop in the front pin and then slam it closed and pin the rear. Over heard the lw15's are tight so I suspect this to be normal. Idk I fit. Mans anything to you guys.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:35:10 PM EDT
Insufficient lube is the cause of a lot of problems with new weapons.
I have seen a fair number of weapons fixed at the range with a bottle of CLP.
I think there is a sticky on lubrication around somewhere.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 8:35:06 PM EDT
1.  Don't just lube the weapon but actually CLEAN and then lube the gun. Run it wet.  

2.  Wait to see some sort of pattern before changing/doing anything to the gun.

3.  Report back if you still have problems and see a pattern. The pattern could be the same issues or having multiple issues consistently.  It is too early to tell at this point and the gun was not properly cleaned and lubed before shooting.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 4:25:46 AM EDT
^^^ yup, you broke cardinal rule #1
Thou shalt clean thine new firearm thoroughly, as thou doeseth thou shalt carefully check components for proper assembly, thou shalt assure thine gas rings be staggered correctly and thou shalt lubricate liberally with thine juice of thee lubrication tree.


Use a better lube than CLP such as Tetra, Mobile 1 or similar. The majority of components are in shear loading (sliding) and the CLP sucks for shear strength.
The tight rear pin will loosen up a bit after firing some more.
Keep it wet and relatively clean and it will run forever.

Link Posted: 9/6/2013 5:23:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 5:31:13 AM EDT by Bstrang6]
Okay, I already hosed it with clp but ill look for some better lube. Fwiw I did clean the rifle after coming home from the range. It wasn't very dirty but I did clean it out. I have some pictures to post of the feed ramps here in a few. Let me know if they look normal. Thanks for your help guys. Might go ahead and leave work early and goth the range again.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213708.jpg
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213756.jpg
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213715.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213735.jpg


And a picture of the whole rifle for shits n gigs
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130903_110139.jpg


Link Posted: 9/6/2013 6:32:53 AM EDT
OP - What do you use to clean the bore?  I haven't used Sweets but Shooters Choice seems to work very well. Hoppes is terrible.



Hockeysew - Dano an others are going to be mad at you for suggesting that automobile oil crap and not CLP!   lol
I have to say since using mobile 1 my guns have worked very well in both sub-zero and hot climates and woodland and desert terrain.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 6:59:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2013 6:19:10 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 7:38:59 AM EDT
That's why I mentioned Tetra, not to big a fan of their grease but their oil is great. It is a teflon based lube and will actually penetrate the bearing surfaces at a molecular level. Froglube is good stuff too and I like it or Magna lube for sliding surfaces such as a slide or BCG.
If it rotates oil it, if it slides grease it.
When I clean an AR I make sure the back of the bolt and the interior of the bolt carrier gets a good wipe with it, I have found subsequent cleanings are easier.
About the only thing CLP is used for in my shop is an "Armor All" use, it is great for a protectant and really nourishes a finish but it is a crummy lube and cleaner. I prefer a dedicated product such as Shooters Choice for cleaning and the Tetra for the lube.

OP- your ramps look fine and I think you will find with a good cleaning and lube the rifle (and you) will be happier. Most ComBloc (Tula, Wolf etc) ammo will run really sooty and carbon up a rifle quickly.
The comment about the brass cased ammo is not entirely accurate. True brass is a more elastic material and will expand more than steel but it works in the inverse the same. It will contract more than steel will after firing. Steel will expand and tend to stay expanded upon firing whereas brass will expand and then contract more than steel once the pressure level drops.
This is where the whole argument on shooting steel cased ammo out of an AR comes from. Its not the laquer coating melting and sticking cases. The problem is exasperated by an AR chamber being relatively straight walled, just that much more friction on the case when it is trying to extract.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 10:59:10 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bstrang6:
Okay, I already hosed it with clp but ill look for some better lube. Fwiw I did clean the rifle after coming home from the range. It wasn't very dirty but I did clean it out. I have some pictures to post of the feed ramps here in a few. Let me know if they look normal. Thanks for your help guys. Might go ahead and leave work early and goth the range again.

<a href="http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/bstrang6/media/20130905_213708.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213708.jpg</a>
<a href="http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/bstrang6/media/20130905_213756.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213756.jpg</a>
<a href="http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/bstrang6/media/20130905_213715.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213715.jpg</a>

<a href="http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/bstrang6/media/20130905_213735.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130905_213735.jpg</a>


And a picture of the whole rifle for shits n gigs
<a href="http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/bstrang6/media/20130903_110139.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130903_110139.jpg</a>


View Quote


OP. did you dremel and polish the feedramps yourself, or did the upper come that way from the factory? Also, the transition on the chamber mouth does not appear to be chamfered enough.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 6:26:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 6:43:53 PM EDT
The upper came that way. I have not touched it. My dremel tool gets a lot of use but I dont feel confident enough in my gun knowledge to take one to a 800 dollar rifle yet,  

FWIW as well, the case that got stuck was american eagle 5.56 brass, after shooting steel ammo though it, so the teflon coating burning off seems like it could have been the case.

Link Posted: 9/7/2013 7:31:33 PM EDT
Here is OP M4 feed ramps… do they look OK?

Link Posted: 9/7/2013 8:15:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MP9cBilly:
Here is OP M4 feed ramps… do they look OK?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4921212/Screen%20Shot%202013-09-07%20at%2010.27.17%20PM.jpg
View Quote


Unfortunately, they do not. The angle of the dremeled cuts on the receiver appear to be offset to the angle of the dremeled ramps on the barrel extension. Also, the transition between the two does not look uniform, with the extension overlapping on the edges. The OP should return the upper to the point of sale. If it was ordered directly from RRA and received that way, I would be quite surprised. If it came from a gun store in that condition....well, that's another story.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 5:49:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 6:21:18 AM EDT by Bstrang6]
Went out and put probably close to 200 more rounds through the gun. I didn't open any more steel cased ammo to avoid sticking rounds in the chamber during this testing, and as expected that did not happen, I probably had 15 or so in each mag when I got there. I was running the rifle WET, CPL was running down from the take down pins, and from between the receivers. Gun functioned perfectly with slow fire. But with either mag ( more frequent with the metal mag, but happened with magpul pmag as well ) when firing as fast as I could, I was getting a few jams. The rounds were not going into the chamber, instead the they were nosing up and the bolt was slamming into them. Out of the 200 rounds I kept all of the bad ones. I have taken 4 photos, one on either side of each round.



http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_084120.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_084139.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_084036.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_084059.jpg


The spent casing is the one that stuck in the chamber last time.

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_091717.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_091740.jpg

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h449/bstrang6/20130909_091752.jpg

Link Posted: 9/9/2013 5:50:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2013 5:54:21 AM EDT by Bstrang6]
Third one from the right, thats really jacked up, I believe I pulled the bolt back and tried to slam that one home. IDK how else I could have one that bent out of shape. There does seem to be some ridges on my feed ramps, between the barrel and the receiver, should I file them smooth?

Fwiw I do believe most rounds pictured are 223 federal red box.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 9:33:48 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bstrang6:
Third one from the right, thats really jacked up, I believe I pulled the bolt back and tried to slam that one home. IDK how else I could have one that bent out of shape. There does seem to be some ridges on my feed ramps, between the barrel and the receiver, should I file them smooth?

Fwiw I do believe most rounds pictured are 223 federal red box.
View Quote


NO, don't file anything. The reason you are experiencing these issues is due to the fact that someone has filed and dremeled it previously. Since you said that the upper was purchased in that condition as being new, your best bet would be to simply return it for either a refund or an exchange.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 5:23:06 PM EDT
I took it into the shop I got it at and he worked it abit, offered to hold it and take it back to rock river if after test firing it it still acted up, I told him im going to try it out if it still has the same issues I'll bring it back.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 8:30:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 11:49:57 AM EDT
Are you sure that the upper receiver assembly is really a Rock River?

Is it possible that the upper is a Rock River Rifle upper receiver (does Rock River cut M4 feedramps into rifle uppers?) that was assembled onto a barrel, and then the M4 feedramps were cut into the upper receiver?

Looks to me like the barrel extension does not have M4 feedramps, and the upper receiver didn't either, and the shop you bought the gun from hand cut/dremeled the feedramps into the upper receiver.

I'd take the thing back to the store, and ask that the upper be replaced by a Genuine Rock River barreled upper receiver assembly IF that's what you paid for.
Link Posted: 9/11/2013 7:55:27 PM EDT
Pretty sure it was assembled this way from rra. The dealer told me that rra uses a dremel to make the grooves themselves in just the same process. Took the rifle out today for another 250 rounds, and the last mag was the only one I had issues with. Three in a row. First was I believe a fte and the bolt slammed another round into the fte round, and pushed the second rounds bullet into its casing, this was with Winchester 45gr hollow points. Then I cleared and had a double feed, and cleared and had a round jam nose up. I'm taking the upper back to the shop and letting them deal with it.

Is this in anyway possible, an issue with my cheapo lower? It's a new frontier armory lw15 all poly lower. I would hate to waste his time trying to make the rifle run if its only not running because of a part he didn't sell me.
Link Posted: 9/11/2013 8:20:37 PM EDT
I'd take it back to the shop and ask for a replacement.

I doubt if your lower is causing these problems.
Link Posted: 9/11/2013 9:04:19 PM EDT
For those wondering, that is the typical dremel-type cut feedramps of an RRA complete upper or rifle.
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