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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/21/2005 2:35:31 PM EDT
Is Colt producing new AR's for the civillian market? If so, do they have the evil features?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 2:50:59 PM EDT
www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/rifles.asp

Current Colt online catalog.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 3:14:04 PM EDT
That is the old catalog . It is the same as it was 2 years ago.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 3:17:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sobekra70:
That is the old catalog . It is the same as it was 2 years ago.



Yeah so?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 3:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sobekra70:
Is Colt producing new AR's for the civillian market? If so, do they have the evil features?




Yes they are, and they have 2 different lines. The old restricted ones are available to everyone in a non-AWB state, while the "civilian" versions are open to everyone.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:18:01 PM EDT
Whats the deal with the Match Target M4 MT6400C it looks like a 6920
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:28:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:52:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2005 4:53:29 PM EDT by mayassa]

Originally Posted By Tweak:
www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/images/MTM4_BIG.jpg

colt.com/law/images/lecarbine.jpg

I see some significant differences




Ok I'm listening and yes I see the flash suppressor
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:11:24 PM EDT
One has a POS fixed collisable stock.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:15:09 PM EDT
Is it just me or does that stock on the top picture look like a aftermarket non milspec stock?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:17:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2005 5:21:15 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By Tweak:




I see some significant differences



Pinned stock and magazine capacity... It also looks like the barrels might be different lengths?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:36:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By sobekra70:
Is Colt producing new AR's for the civillian market? If so, do they have the evil features?




Yes they are, and they have 2 different lines. The old restricted ones are available to everyone in a non-AWB state, while the "civilian" versions are open to everyone.



From what I've read the answer is officially "NO". The "restricted" ones, while they legally should be available to everyone, it is my understanding that Colt still prohibits their dealers from selling them to non goverment agencies, and will pull dealerships from anyone caught "grey marketing" their LEO models to civilians. It happens that some dealers ignore that, of course, but they are taking their chances. I suspect the fact that most dealers just figure losing their Colt dealership isn't really a serious issue anymore given they could just switch to another brand. However, it certainly seem that if you look at FFL orriented publications like Shotgun news, you will not openly find anyone selling LEO configured Colt products for civilian sales. What few Colts you will see advertised are all labeled as LEO agency sales only, albiet whether they really follow through on it.. Same official Colt rules are true from what I understand for new manufacture > 10rd Colt labeled magazines.

Also of course even the "civilian" Colt models are not available to residents of CA, as they still have a detachable mag, which by CA rules is still an illegal "assault weapon" since you can't have both a "conspicuously protruding" pistol grip and a detachable mag there. The closest thing to an AR you can buy in CA these days is the horrible obomination called a FAB-10 (or clones thereof) which have a fixed magazine -- you have to push out the rear takedown pin and load from the top with a stripper clip. Blech. As far as I know Colt doesn't build a CA-civilian-legal AR.

Anyway, the continued refusal of Colt to sell to civilians what they want and can legally buy is largely the reason that they've slipped way down in sales compared to Bushmaster, DPMS, Eagle/Armalite, Olympic, etc. My personal opinion is that current Colt management are blithering morons, which given their state of solvency and loss of most of their government contracts, I doubt many would disagree with. Its not just ARs either, they've made similarly silly blunders with their handguns, losing the 1911 market to Springfield, Para-Ordinance and Kimber and essentially bailing out of the revolver market, giving it to Ruger, Taurus and Smith & Wesson. Even their Holley carburator division has seen its competitors like Weber/Carter, Edelbrock and Demon make huge inroads into markets they once dominated.

At any rate... Colt management -- if you are listening... WAKE UP. Colt stockholders -- start holding these guys accountable, demand their heads on a stick until they are either replaced or fix their act!

Well, enough soap box for now...
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:41:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By Tweak:
www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/images/MTM4_BIG.jpg

colt.com/law/images/lecarbine.jpg

I see some significant differences



Pinned stock and magazine capacity... It also looks like the barrels might be different lengths?



I think the barrel length is a little misleading since the scale on those two pics is not exactly the same due to the real OAL being different with one stock collapsed and the pinned one extended. I bet if the scale was the same in the pics the barrels would be the same length. Other differences besides the pinned stock and reduced capacity magazine are as previously noted, the LEO version has a flash supressor and a bayonet lug.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:44:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoftwareJanitor:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By sobekra70:
Is Colt producing new AR's for the civillian market? If so, do they have the evil features?




Yes they are, and they have 2 different lines. The old restricted ones are available to everyone in a non-AWB state, while the "civilian" versions are open to everyone.



From what I've read the answer is officially "NO". The "restricted" ones, while they legally should be available to everyone, it is my understanding that Colt still prohibits their dealers from selling them to non goverment agencies, and will pull dealerships from anyone caught "grey marketing" their LEO models to civilians. It happens that some dealers ignore that, of course, but they are taking their chances. I suspect the fact that most dealers just figure losing their Colt dealership isn't really a serious issue anymore given they could just switch to another brand. However, it certainly seem that if you look at FFL orriented publications like Shotgun news, you will not openly find anyone selling LEO configured Colt products for civilian sales. What few Colts you will see advertised are all labeled as LEO agency sales only, albiet whether they really follow through on it.. Same official Colt rules are true from what I understand for new manufacture > 10rd Colt labeled magazines.

Also of course even the "civilian" Colt models are not available to residents of CA, as they still have a detachable mag, which by CA rules is still an illegal "assault weapon" since you can't have both a "conspicuously protruding" pistol grip and a detachable mag there. The closest thing to an AR you can buy in CA these days is the horrible obomination called a FAB-10 (or clones thereof) which have a fixed magazine -- you have to push out the rear takedown pin and load from the top with a stripper clip. Blech. As far as I know Colt doesn't build a CA-civilian-legal AR.

Anyway, the continued refusal of Colt to sell to civilians what they want and can legally buy is largely the reason that they've slipped way down in sales compared to Bushmaster, DPMS, Eagle/Armalite, Olympic, etc. My personal opinion is that current Colt management are blithering morons, which given their state of solvency and loss of most of their government contracts, I doubt many would disagree with. Its not just ARs either, they've made similarly silly blunders with their handguns, losing the 1911 market to Springfield, Para-Ordinance and Kimber and essentially bailing out of the revolver market, giving it to Ruger, Taurus and Smith & Wesson. Even their Holley carburator division has seen its competitors like Weber/Carter, Edelbrock and Demon make huge inroads into markets they once dominated.

At any rate... Colt management -- if you are listening... WAKE UP. Colt stockholders -- start holding these guys accountable, demand their heads on a stick until they are either replaced or fix their act!

Well, enough soap box for now...



+1
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:47:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2005 5:50:10 PM EDT by talbalos]

Originally Posted By Tweak:
www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/images/MTM4_BIG.jpg

colt.com/law/images/lecarbine.jpg

I see some significant differences


Civilian M4 has a muzzle brake and fixed RRA buttstock (Curved forward edge on the bottom of the buttstock as opposed to the squared off forward edge present on the the LE Carbine.

LE Carbine has a flash suppressor and a real collapsible Colt stock.

IIRC the question came up last year and someone contacted Colt. The corporate answer was that commercial (civilian) rifles would not revert to a "pre-1994 AWB" configuration.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 5:52:00 PM EDT
I have no love for Colt ...But they are second in the AR market still.If they made an AR like every other company/assembler and cleaned up their act on the 2cnd ammendment they would be the top AR supplier.If I could buy a Colt AR the way Bushmaster Armalite or RRA makes with no screwed up pin sizes then I would definately own a Colt.Some people would blast me by saying why buy from an anti second ammendment company but if that were the case then I wouldnt own chinese made weapons..a country that has a dismal human rights record.Any one who owns an AK unless american made would fall into that category.Hey the confederates bought weapons at times from the same people suplying the north.To me as long as I can get what I need for my own security I could care less where it comes from and if the people selling them one day end up as an enemy Ill use there own made weapon against them.More important than who made it or where it comes from is what hands it ends up in.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 6:20:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
I have no love for Colt ...But they are second in the AR market still.If they made an AR like every other company/assembler and cleaned up their act on the 2cnd ammendment they would be the top AR supplier.If I could buy a Colt AR the way Bushmaster Armalite or RRA makes with no screwed up pin sizes then I would definately own a Colt.Some people would blast me by saying why buy from an anti second ammendment company but if that were the case then I wouldnt own chinese made weapons..a country that has a dismal human rights record.Any one who owns an AK unless american made would fall into that category.Hey the confederates bought weapons at times from the same people suplying the north.To me as long as I can get what I need for my own security I could care less where it comes from and if the people selling them one day end up as an enemy Ill use there own made weapon against them.More important than who made it or where it comes from is what hands it ends up in.



You sure Colt is still #2? Latest figures I've seen were from 2003, which is before the sunset of the ban. I would bet that the other brands have seen a much bigger surge in sales since then than Colt. In 2003 Colt was barely above 3rd or 4th place Rock River and Armalite. Only a few thousand units shift here and there and Colt could come out in 3rd or 4th place when the 2004 and 2005 sales figures come out. And even if Colt has managed to hold onto the same market share they had in 2003, which I doubt, that was only about a 17% share of the total market. That is an abysmally embarassing slice of the pie considering they used to basically outright own the market. In 1998 they had over 44% market share and were the #1 vendor so they've really slid precipitously. And between 1998 and 2003 Colt is a very distant 2nd overall to Bushmaster, with only a little over 1/2 the sales.

Your "if"s are pretty big... It seems unlikely that Colt will reverse themselves and sell on the civilian market a standard pin sized lower with pre-ban features any time soon unless they are bought out by someone who has some sense. Don't get me wrong... I have no real hatred for Colt or any particular love of any of their competitors, although I will admit I like to root for the underdog... Sadly that almost seems like Colt nowdays. I really wish they'd get their act together. I know they CAN make a good product, and they could sell it to us... they just refuse to do so. Boggles the mind. If they don't change their ways I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't liquidated and sold off to someone just for the name over the next few years. Truly sad to see.
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