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Posted: 10/25/2004 7:18:39 AM EDT
I had occasion to review an incident involving the performance of a new class of ammo.
Recently this ammo was responsible for a one stop shot that prompted my review. Distance was under 50 meters. A single round was fired by a police officer. Total incapacitation was instantaneous and the suspect expired some time later under medical care. Tissue and crush damage was high in the impact area and CNS damage was apparent. The projectile is an 8.5gram .68 caliber polymer composite with about 15J/cm^3 of energy (200fps muzzle velocity). Based on the performance of the round I am suggesting that AR users adopt it exclusively over lighter rounds (77 grain, 75 grain, 69 grain, etc.) We will also be exploring the effects of what I am calling "hyper-mass" rounds. (Rounds with high weights and very low velocities). I believe this new class of ammo might displace conventional thinking with respect to "fast and light" rounds.  The weapon system can deploy with magazines of up to 100 projectiles, giving us Beta-C like ammo capacity in a carbine like system.  Based on its performance in Boston following the Red Socks game (100% one stop shot for the reported sample) it is clear this projectile is going to be performing well out there on the street. For the humor impaired I thought this might make a point about why we don't care about the deer you shot or the Iraqi who got hit in the butt with BMT ammo. This kind of incident tells us NOTHING about terminal effects. The point goes equally in the other direction. As the family of Ms. Snelgrove now knows, but the Boston Police were duped into overlooking, almost any projectile is potentially "lethal." There are two or three fatalities associated with thrown pillow-cushions. Firms marketing "less than lethal" projectile weapons don't understand terminal effects any better than LeMas/BMT types. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 7:58:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Hey Clean_Cut, she found you "The single most devastating firearm a person can wield"....
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:08:30 AM EDT
[#2]
What the hell is this thing? Is this for real? Looks like a weapon for firing less-lethal ammo.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:14:53 AM EDT
[#3]
  
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:17:01 AM EDT
[#4]
The problem with assuming that to be accurate is in not knowing that CO-2 is unpredictable and can double or triple that velocity if not handled properly in a paintball marker. Not trying to loose sight of your point or hijack the thread, but I wonder what the details are with the incident mentioned. BTW, I hear all the SEAL teams and DELTA are going to be using this new round! It’s AWESOME!!!  -LS |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:31:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Hang on a sec, let me fix this for you... ...okay, here we go!  Coming soon to an exploding potroast test near YOU! |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:39:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Nice.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 8:57:55 AM EDT
[#7]
 Thanks for the laugh!
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Posted: 10/25/2004 9:28:34 AM EDT
[#8]
you might want to post the link to the real story so the people who haven't heard of the incident will be able to get the joke.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 9:33:45 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't think that there's anything humorous about that poor girl's unfortunate death from a "non-lethal" weapon.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 9:50:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Aw, come on. Post a thread about how airplanes are the latest in hi-rise demolition. Much faster than a wreckingball. People will find that humorous too! TRG |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 10:24:06 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 10/25/2004 12:31:54 PM EDT
[#12]
This is the dumbest thread I ever read.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 12:42:50 PM EDT
[#13]
And with 122 posts under your count, that must have been alot. Tat was trying to make a point, must have eluded you. Tat has forgotten more about bullets and ballistics than most of us will ever learn. TRG, that is the gayest avatar I have ever seen. TXL |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 1:07:49 PM EDT
[#14]
I get your point but cant find any humor in it at all.
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Posted: 10/25/2004 1:18:47 PM EDT
[#15]
I raised the bar. TRG |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 1:19:44 PM EDT
[#16]
You won't get the humor unless you were around for the whole LeMas "Blended Metal" debate. Those of us who were around think her post is funny as hell because of the context from which it was written. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 1:39:10 PM EDT
[#17]
The "joke" is this:
In this forum we are constantly fielding comments from people who tell us we should be using Round X because they once saw it shred a pot roast into a dozen pieces at 50 meters, or that they dropped a deer with it last winter or... The point is that ANY projectile CAN be lethal even "less than lethal" rounds (including a pillow). The question is what is CONSISTENTLY lethal. It occurred to me when I read this story: That misunderstanding of terminal ballistics could kill people two ways. First, by overestimating the effect of a round like GP90 in situations where quick incapacitations are critical. Second, by UNDERestimating the effect of a round like the 8.5 gram "plastic bullet" shown above. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 6:05:40 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't think this topic is humorous.
I read the story in the Boston Herald newspaper and listened to commentary from the Howie Carr radio (entertainment) program. From what I understand, the death of Victoria "Tori" Snelgrove is being taken seriously. The police of Boston are hanging their collective heads in shame, (as they should, in my opinion). The projectile contained pepper-spray. Many people are already aware of the effects of pepper-sprays and tear-gases under ideal circumstances. The event in Boston was not ideal. She took a hit to her eye. She died. From what I gathered, she wasn't even the intended target. Perhaps the talents available to www.ar15.com could be better utilized by reviewing and reinforcing the rules of firearm saftey and writing an article applying those principles to all users of firearms and "less-than-lethal" devices or equipment. I respect the time and energy the staff of www.ar15.com expends for the benefit of all humanity. With that respect, I ask that this topic be considered in poor taste and dealt with appropriately. Sincerely, Craig |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 6:14:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Poor taste? Maybe.
Break the CoC and therefore need to be locked? Not in the least. You'll have to get over it. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 6:23:18 PM EDT
[#20]
how is this in poor taste?
someone got hit with a "non lethal" projectile and got killed... i can gurantee that she stood better chances than if she had been hit with a 9mm or buckshot you could consider yourself lucky if the cops only thump your noggin with an ASP baton or shoot the pepper balls/bean bags! for petes sake, these were rioters... its a shame someone had to die over a fucking baseball game... blame the assholes in the crowd for inciting the riot, not the cops who were tasked with keeping their asses in check! tatjana's point that ANY projectile can be lethal is A POINT WELL TAKEN on many levels. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 6:30:58 PM EDT
[#21]
The original post is using irony to prove a point, (Craig)2. Later posters decided the post was funny.
If deciding some folks' senses of humor are in bad taste is reason enough to run to a Mod and lock threads, this site will cease to be in .05 seconds.  |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 9:23:22 PM EDT
[#22]
It is in poor taste because an innocent girl died. You want to email your post to her family, tough guy?
Are you a police officer? Should I feel lucky that you don't come over to my house and shoot me in the head with a 12-gauge shell? You spelled "guarantee" wrong.
Whether there was actually a riot in progress is subject to some debate. Whether or not this girl posed a deadly threat to the police officer who shot her is not debatable. She didn't. You're either a law enforcement officer who should be stripped of his shield, or a boot-licking wannabe who has no f*cking clue at all.
So THAT was your point. How eloquently put, I should have picked it up much earlier. |
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Posted: 10/25/2004 11:49:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Two sides to the issue.
Both seem to ignore the IDIOTS who chose to riot. Both seem to ignore the lack of mental preperation afforded the poor girl bu society and her parents. Both concentrate either on liability that would Damn the poor officer involved, or the "Just mindinding her own buisness amidst a friggin riot! Tatjana, I agree. This is somewhat tasteless. Then again, sometimes a bad taste is needed to wake up folks who would otherwise be concentrating on Britney Speers pregnancy and NOT the world around them. Afterall, if a skunk didn't stink, they would be cute and cuddly. You are taking a chance on this girl. Thanks for doing so. Science and circumstance are odd partners. This one is on the ugly side of what happens on the far end of the bellcurve. My side is polorized. Anyone within 100m of a riot is NOT "Innocent", or a victim. It is REASONABLY known that riots can cause pain and death. That's why people with a BRAIN , get out of dodge or circle the wagons and find cover in such circumstances. S-28 |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 1:54:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Can you mount a Tacpoint on that thing? Will blended metal bullets be available in the near future? How does it compare to the 6.5 Grendel?
Thanks. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 5:45:10 AM EDT
[#25]
The rest of us didn't appear to have a problem reading her five by five and understanding her point. Perhaps it's just you. |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 10:01:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Craig, I appreciate your concern over the topic. I would like to respond with my thinking on why the topic should stay. Ballistics is often abused by clever and not-so-clever types to sell systems to agencies. "Less than lethal" is the latest in a series of buzzwords used to sell a product. I'm hoping that the dark satire here will wake some people up to the fact that "less than lethal" often is lethal and that "lethal" sometimes isn't. Marketing is the enemy here. I doubt highly that much training was given to these officers in the use of the weapon system. Probably a small warning "You'll put your eye out" somewhere. Since it's "less than lethal" and it's pepper, should be fine to try for headshots, right? Damn rioters! Serves em right to get a good smack in the face with some pepper... eh? I don't know that this is how it happened but I strongly suspect that the officers involved were entirely taken in by the "less than lethal" crap. Why not? It says it right here on the box! |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 12:33:47 PM EDT
[#27]
How is everyone so sure the girl was rioting? From what I have heard, she was just a bystander. Se damn sure didn't deserve to die.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:07:20 PM EDT
[#28]
SPTiger,
If there is a riotous mob, and YOU are in the middle of it, EVERY single human within eyesight IS part of the Mob. Folks with 2 brain cells to rub together will NOT be there. Ya gotta trust me on this. It's the same menatality as the fascination with Tornados. Folks with any sense hit the basement. Morons stand on the porch and get caught up in the wonder of the event and are later protrayed as "Victims". Tatjana's point in all of this is that one incident does NOT make a trend. Despite the political and sociological overtones, and obvious political correctness issues that were breached. Shit happens. Don't plan on it, but respect that it does. And yes, I'm from the other side of the fence. Never plan or trust on anything but Ball performance from any load. Thoughts and prayers to the family of the deceased, and the officer and his family. Both are the only real victims in this matter. S-28 |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:38:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Where did all the GOOBERs come from?
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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:49:58 AM EDT
[#30]
It's the hi-cap drum mag that made it Evil. If it had a 10 round mag, Demonic Posession would have never occured, and her soft eye would have been missed.
Ban hi-caps and force the LEOs into remedial training with lots of documentation and signed disclaimers in triplicate. It's for the children!!! Even if they are not smart enough to leave a riot before the police arrive. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:55:35 AM EDT
[#31]
I can almost guarantee you, there will be some remedial training. TRG |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 7:22:49 AM EDT
[#32]
I feel the same way. I understand the motive behind this post, and agree completely.... but it still just makes me sad. Nothing humorous at all.  And guys.... how about we NOT rehash the whole issue, of whether it was a good shoot or not, or whether the girl was to blame for being there.... ad nauseum? 
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Posted: 10/27/2004 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#33]
 Marketing of most newer products have already shyed away from the "Less than lethal" terminology to the more lawsuit-friendly "Lesser lethal". I'm curious what the training/qualification in Boston is for that weapon (or what it will now change to). In all the riot/civil disturbance training I've seen or attended, you never aim or shoot the head unless the suspect's actions are what would already authorize deadly force. Whether it would be smaller paint/pepperball weapons, 12ga stunbags, 37mm ARWEN or Fed Stingers, etc. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:10:57 PM EDT
[#34]
In before the Inappropriate thread Lock!
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