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9/16/2019 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 3/27/2009 7:03:26 AM EDT
Hey guys,
My dept. is looking at replacing our aging patrol rifles. They want myself and a few other firearms officers to present four new AR type rifles so they can make a desision on one of the four. I have the two DI guns settled but they also want two different types of AR based piston guns to look at. I have narrowed it down to HK's 416 and LMT's piston MRP. I know, probably too much $$$$ but I thought "at least I'll try." I have a bunch of info already but I know there is a wealth of info here, so help me out....
I need to know if:
-Anyone has had any real experiance with either gun. If so what were the stong and weak point of each?
-What's the major Pro's and Con's of each gun's piston operation.
-Who will be easier to deal if a gun needs repair/replaced.
-The HK is more $$$$. Is it really worth the extra money?

Please, no off the wall opinions. I already know the various arguments between piston vs. DI. I'm just looking facts and or real life usage experiances of each gun. That being said, I really appreciate everyone's thought and advice in advance.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:39:33 AM EDT
Screw the HK's too many proprietary parts = FAIL! Pardon me I must leave this fire fight as it will take weeks to get a new part, the bank and the hostages will have to wait.

Piston upper on your lowers is an option.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:02:02 AM EDT
The HK has been around longer, i.e. more time to work out the bugs. Maybe their LE customer service is better, the civilian side sure sucks. The LMT would be a better option IMHO but it is a new product with less real world use. For a Patrol Rifle I would stay with the DI type.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:08:44 AM EDT
I use the LMT CQB Piston upper on my bushmaster lower. I have to say I'm in love. Not one FTF or FTE in over 1k brass cased rounds. It doesn't like the wolf stuff. I haven't found any cons yet, but then again, I've only had it for 6 months. The one thing I love the most is cleaning time.....damn near cut in half!

The complete LMT rifle is a lot of money, my suggestion is to keep your lowers and just buy the uppers.

If it makes any difference, our tac team has mostly all MP5's and one guy with an AR....he's shortly switching over to the LMT piston upper.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:17:56 AM EDT
Hey guys,
Really appreciate the insight an advice. I'll talk it over with the rest of the "commitee" and see if piston uppers would be an option we could present. That would definately keep the cost down and still let us go with a piston gun. Just in case anyone is curious, the two DI options are Colt 6920s and LMT Defenders.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:27:04 AM EDT
DAEWOO DR-200's!!

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:36:36 PM EDT

Might want ot think about Patriot Ordinance Factory (POF) as a piston based model. Great weapons however the customer service and wait time may be hard to deal with. I have a 9.25in SBR and love it, runs like a dream.

Pros: Very reliable, low maintance, POF claims that the system does not require and lube.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 7:15:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 7:23:38 PM EDT by DarkEarth]
Is there a "yes" factor at your dept when you say the name Colt? Because it never seems to be a bad idea to outfit the whole bunch with Colt carbines. Maybe even a couple DMR 20" precision set ups would be nice too.

About the piston guns I think its interesting that the decision makers as far as your field arms go are even open to the idea. Have THEY been spending time in the GD here? Screw HK!! (but not the MP5 in 10mm).

Go with Colts and Remingtons. You guys will be shooting revolvers out of perps hands in no time

Also I was thinking. I can see Larue filling this order quite nicely too, the service youd get would be great. And all great work places have waves of swag rolling through every so often to keep the morale up.

Remember to pitch some Aimpoints at the boss too. If they'll look at piston ARs, they'll surely go for the tech of the compact red dot sights.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 7:30:57 PM EDT
Might want to look into LWRC as wellhttp://www.lwrifles.com/

Sir James...
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 7:43:37 PM EDT
Go with the AR 10 or a like caliber rifle. The .223 just doesn't have the penetration of the .308. Plus, you would probably be using the same round as your sniper guys which is cheaper and easier logisticly. Remember the LA thing when they couldn't get through the bad guys body armor. .308's have more knock down power and a bigger permanent wound cavity. They found in Iraq that the .223 just wasn't knocking the bad guys down, it was lacking in that area. Plus, Armalite has a proven production model that is reliable and repairable at the department level. HK's are really nice, we carried MP5's for a while. They are great indoors where space is tight and don't penetrate into the neighbors apartment as far as a rifle round. But, they are a bitch to get serviced. And the parts aren't easy to come by.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 7:52:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 8:03:19 PM EDT by nemoaz]
Let me start by saying I work for a large agency. I'm also not an expert or in a position of training others or making these sort of decisions. We carry HK 40 pistols, and have access to our choice of HK UMP also in 40o, AR M4s of various sorts (some select some semi only) or some sort of 870, most of which are 14" models. We are in the process of phasing out the UMP, and in general I'm extremely underwhelmed by HK's service to us. The last time we had two UMPs out of service, it took well over a year to get parts.

Also, although I admit my experience with piston uppers is limited, I can't imagine a law enforcement need for a piston upper which necessarily equates to choosing some small increment of severe useage reliability (in conditions which an LEO rifle won't see) over a fairly dramatic decrease in accuracy. Given that I choose a rifle for the express purpose of having the option of making a headshot if need be, I would never consider going from a 1-1.5 inch rifle to a 3-4 inch rifle. If your agency uses suppressors (we don't except for special operations), then maybe the calculus changes.

If it were up to me, I'd carry lightweight 16" carbines with a mix of optics.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 8:02:06 PM EDT
I think that pistons in the role of a department rifle would be largely a waste considering how often they're going to be shot (and HOW they're going to be shot).

Just remember, for the added cost of that piston, you could buy each rifleman a case of ammo and hire a top-tier trainer to come out and give everyone a quality class...

My $.02...
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 6:59:03 AM EDT
Once agian I thank all of you that have chimed in a provided your advice and insight. It's great to be able to post a topic here and always expect to come away with plenty of good info, advice, and experiences. Personally, I agree that a piston rifle would not be the best for my dept. especially when you consider the cost differnce. Also, just for the curious, the sight options are irons with Aimpoint M2s or Eotechs. I'm hoping for the M2s.

Thanks agian!
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 9:56:05 AM EDT
On the Aimpoints, unless you need NV or dive capability, you may want to look at the CompC3. Better battery life than the M2, and just as tough. It also has a lower per-unit cost, which may be more attractive to admin types.
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 10:00:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Anglico1:

Might want ot think about Patriot Ordinance Factory (POF) as a piston based model. Great weapons however the customer service and wait time may be hard to deal with. I have a 9.25in SBR and love it, runs like a dream.

Pros: Very reliable, low maintance, POF claims that the system does not require and lube.


Link Posted: 3/29/2009 10:16:04 AM EDT
As far as the piston guns go I have to say LMT is going to be both cheaper and easier to deal with as far as parts and service are concerned than HK. I know it is not on your list but did you consider LWRCI for a piston gun. I have two and can speak from personal experience about dealing with them. They are very pro military/LEO.
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 10:30:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2009 10:31:11 AM EDT by TF-41]
My .02 would tell you to stick to the DI guns and pick either COLT or LMT. Milspec guns and already in service everywhere due to reputation, history, etc. My department runs LMT AR's thanks to me when we went to get an upgrade from the Mini-14's we had. Customer service has been 100% and turn around for the 1 and only time I needed a replacement part was taken care of immediately. As for the piston guns...you are setting yourself up for manufacturer only replacement parts in regards to the BCG, piston system, etc. in the rare event they go down(such as an HK416 or LMT piston gun) since each company has differences in their desgin.

I'm not a fan of the piston idea anyways so I am biased here...I honestly don't see a NEED for the system.
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