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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/8/2004 7:26:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/8/2004 7:27:23 AM EST by Bayonet14]
Ok,
For those out there that think IBA does not work? Think again....here is a pic of a TAP III plate shot between 50 and 100m. The impact above the W center mass of the plate was from 10m. I did not want to get any closer for fear of "splash". Used NATO 5.56 ball, the new enviro friendly bullet. That thing does contain a small penetrator...all it did was place a quarter sized bulge on the back of the plate. Seems the ceramic did its job on the bullet before impact on the kevlar backing. Seeing is believing.

Brought to you by BAYONET14 &
Bill from 574


http://tinypic.com/1kjky
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:33:38 AM EST
Hey if you guys run across any more to destroy, send em my way...


Stay safe over there my man...
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:33:54 AM EST
I've done a few plate shoots, and they have always held up. I trust the plates more than the soft armor.

Nice pics, and thanks for sharing!
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:41:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stickman:
.........I trust the plates more than the soft armor......




Amen to that! I have to get some armor for some upcoming training that I want to take. For me, it's going to be a plate carrier and plates only. No soft armor for me....

Anyone have experience with the polypro level III stand-alone stuff?
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:42:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/8/2004 7:43:13 AM EST by mo4040]
dupe post
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:42:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/8/2004 7:43:35 AM EST by mo4040]
dupe post.....
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:43:31 AM EST
Damn.
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 9:38:33 AM EST
The 5.56mm round is supposed to have better penetration at longer ranges than short. Could you take a couple of shots at 175-200m?
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 10:35:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 10:41:33 AM EST
neat.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 1:25:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcantu:
The 5.56mm round is supposed to have better penetration at longer ranges than short. Could you take a couple of shots at 175-200m?



Dude. The slower the bullet goes, the less in will penetrate. The bullet starts decellerating as soon as it exits the barrel. Farther=Less

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 1:26:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 1:28:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By eodinert:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
The 5.56mm round is supposed to have better penetration at longer ranges than short. Could you take a couple of shots at 175-200m?



Dude. The slower the bullet goes, the less in will penetrate. The bullet starts decellerating as soon as it exits the barrel. Farther=Less




Not quite...

Closer in, it will fragment -> less penetration...

See Troy's post, above...
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 1:29:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 2:29:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 2:44:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By eodinert:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
The 5.56mm round is supposed to have better penetration at longer ranges than short. Could you take a couple of shots at 175-200m?



Dude. The slower the bullet goes, the less in will penetrate. The bullet starts decellerating as soon as it exits the barrel. Farther=Less




Nope, I've downloaded all my .223 loads to only 300 fps and it goes through 5 inches of plate steel now. Beat that!

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 3:39:52 PM EST
Yup. Troy is right. We did some informal research on AR plate. Velocity rules When trying to penetrate a medium that is HARDER than the bullet. On softer materials a certain amount of velocity reduction will get you gains in penetration. Obviously there would be a point of diminishing returns.

On AR plate M193 outpenetrates M855 at the same distance by a significant margin. We also shot some AUSSIE .308 on the same plates. It yielded ZERO penetration, and looked like a pistol splatter mark on the gong.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 4:27:31 PM EST
Boron Carbide?
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 4:31:29 PM EST
did you ever try those pentration tests at 200m?



Originally Posted By markm:
Yup. Troy is right. We did some informal research on AR plate. Velocity rules When trying to penetrate a medium that is HARDER than the bullet. On softer materials a certain amount of velocity reduction will get you gains in penetration. Obviously there would be a point of diminishing returns.

On AR plate M193 outpenetrates M855 at the same distance by a significant margin. We also shot some AUSSIE .308 on the same plates. It yielded ZERO penetration, and looked like a pistol splatter mark on the gong.

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 4:36:58 PM EST
what are they made of? Is that Kevlar around it?

Thanks-
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 8:45:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 9:52:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 2:43:33 AM EST
I mentioned 200m because in thje US Army's field manual for Urban Combat, it states that the 5.56mm round achieves optimum pentration at 200m and that it will have little pentration at 25m and virtually none at 10m.



Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
did you ever try those pentration tests at 200m?



At that distance (heck, even at 100m), M855's construction would start improving its performance vs. M193, and, around 200-250m (depending on initial velocity/barrel length), M855 will be going faster than M193, and have another advantage.

But up close, M193's additional velocity will give it better penetration ability. Remember that M855's design goal was to increase hard-target penetration (vs M193 and M80) AT LONG DISTANCES. It does do that.

-Troy

Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:10:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcantu:
did you ever try those pentration tests at 200m?



Not yet! I'd still like to, but the heat out here is a bitch. I will do it soon though.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:13:44 AM EST
7.62

we need to see it
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 9:23:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 11:13:51 AM EST
It's at close range against harder materials where the 55grn load achieves better penetration compared to the 62grn round thanks soley to that extra muzzle velocity that the 55grn load holds.


Against hard materials, best chances of defeating it are when the velocity at time of impact are highest.


Tumbling and fragmentation behavior in hard materials isn't like that in softer materials, the bullets tend to anchor and penetrate in a very straight line. Not to mention a 1/4-1/2 inch thick piece of metal is no where near as thick as something like 9-10 inches of wood, tissue, or sand.


For maximizing penetration in soft materials, velocities likely need to come down to levels where tumbling/fragmentation thresholds are not attainable. For maximizing penetration in hard materials, optimize the core and get that sucker moving as fast as possible.



What I would like to do against that strike plate is pit one of my 165grn AP loads fired out of a 300WinMag at 3200-3300fps.

This is what it does to a piece of 1 1/4 inch thick steel plate when fired from a distance of 80 yards.

Those lvl IV strike plates are said to be rated to withstand a 30-06 M2 AP load which is the 165grn bullet I am using only at around 2800fps, I've got a solid 400fps velocity advantage comin out of the 300WinMag.



Above picture is of my 2nd load over starting, now my loads penetrate cleanly with the final load.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 11:24:56 AM EST
Stay away from my gongs, BUD!
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 11:29:46 AM EST
You should hear this plate ring out when it's hit by these loads.

It sounds like it is in agony, gongs normally sound like some kind of gong. Thing thing sounds kinda like a tuning fork or something somewhat wicked. Guess it's cause the plate is so thick it doesn't resonate like a gong does.



When my 300WinMag has burned it's barrel out and it's time for a rebuild, I am considering going with the 300RUM. The rifle is a long range rig more than anything so the 300RUM appeals to me, 190grn VLDs supersonic to nearly 2k yards is a plus. But even more interesting would be managing 3500fps with these same WWII surplus AP bullets.

I don't need no stinkin SLAP...
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 12:22:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 12:57:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2004 12:59:43 PM EST by uglygun]
Pretty sure a 300RUM is gonna come close to whatever a saboted 338Lapua could do to the projectile.

If I could get some proper 150grn AP bullets the 300RUM could manage close to 3700-3800fps with those bullets which is insanely fast. Eventually I am gonna grab some Barnes copper solids in 125grn and 150grn weights to see how fast I can push them from my 300WinMag, the 125s should prove interesting at 3600fps. I'm guessing results will be somewhere between that of what I see with a lead core 190grn SMK and the results I get with a 165grn AP bullet.


Now a 50BMG with 30cal sabots, could be interesting just to see how fast the things go but I ain't about to go off wastin 200 grains of powder to launch 165grns of bullet when I could be launching a proper bullet like 680-750 grains.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 2:20:03 PM EST
Please clarify some questions, please. I may have overlooked if previously stated:
Was there any thing behind the IBA/TAP III during test to simulate the mass of a human body, or was the TAP III hanging free? Would this affect it?
Concerning the picture, is this the front side?
Is there a pic of the back showing the bulges?
Hom many shots total?
Any go through partially or completely?
What would happen with one hit followed up by a rapid follow up(s) in a close group?
How was the integrity of the IBA/TAP III after the first shot and after the rest?
Any plans to try it with 7.62x39 and other commonly encountered calibers in that area?
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 1:13:26 PM EST
???
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:43:28 AM EST
Pics were taken of the front side of plate only....just had a sandbag behind to hold in place. The plate was fired on by both (and I should have stated this in the 1st post) using training ammo and issue M855 NATO ball. This round does contain a penatrator...First 6 shots taken at the plate were between 75 to 80 meters. The final shot center mass was taken at 10 meters...this was the ONLY strike to bulge the back of the plate. The ceramic plate has a kevlar backing. Did not try for a long range shot since most engagements here will likley fall within 100 meters or closer. Trust me...the AIF here DO NOT take aimed, or for that matter, placed shots...the just "wing it" and spray the engagement area...and hope they hit something or someone. The plate is a TAP III rated to w/stand multi strike from NATO 7.62 ball. The Plate once inserted w/OTV brings the user to TAP IV due to 9mm kevlar spall inserts.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:44:54 AM EST
Next time we shoot a plate we will also use red tip 77grain. And use special purpose ammo that can defeat TAP IV plates to see results...more to follow
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:02:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bayonet14:
Next time we shoot a plate we will also use red tip 77grain. And use special purpose ammo that can defeat TAP IV plates to see results...more to follow



Hey bayo, hadnt heard from your or Tango in awhile, glad to hear yall are ok, yall take care and God bless you all for your service, never knew I typed with a drawl
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:09:39 AM EST
Given the shortage of body armor, why are you wasting it like this?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 8:24:01 AM EST
When 4th ID left here in February, they threw away some SAPI plates. That's how we ended up with some extra plates. 1 or 2 plates on our FOB will do nothing for any perceived shortage elsewhere.

No none is allowed to leave Kuwait for Iraq without SAPI plates so I'm not sure about any shortage. Units might sit in Kuwait a little while waiting for plates but they eventually all get them.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 9:29:40 AM EST
Always interesting info on ARFCOM
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 10:16:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
7.62

we need to see it



As anyone who has shot steel plates with 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 will tell you, 7.62x51 is less impressive on steel than the smaller, faster 5.56

On steel, velocity rules, not energy. 7.62x51 is not very impressive at all, and 7.62x39 is downright pathetic.

Last weekend I shot steel plates (railroad plates) with a 7mm Remington mag. The craters were shallower than those left by XM855 (50 yds).
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 10:57:50 AM EST
my 20 incher with 75 grain loads penetrated more steel than my nephews ak at 100 yards
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 12:02:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
my 20 incher with 75 grain loads penetrated more steel than my nephews ak at 100 yards




As it probably should.... 75grn bullet out of a 223/5.56x45mm class weapon should be chugging at an easy 2600fps(minimum) at the muzzle. The 7.62x39mm doesn't even have a chance of besting 2300fps with it's 120-123grn bullets.

The 75grn bullet is going to be the velocity king on target down range.


Now, compare a 75grn 5.56x45mm round at roughly 2700fps to that of a 7.62x51mm 168grn bullet at roughly the same velocity and results are going to be much more similar.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:44:19 AM EST
As I am aware there is no shortage of SAPI. There were several just left behind by 4th ID. Policy now is you have complete IBA...to include front and back SAPI plates...NO EXCEPTIONS for ANYONE prior to movement north (IRAQ). The tests done here we to show 1st hand what these plates can do to save a life should a user be hit. This is to ensure and build confidenace w/soldiers that their equipment will do what its was designed for. The plate we shot was a code out condition "F". It could NEVER be issued to another soldier due to plate seperation on the back side lower right. (SO a plate was not "wasted" as it was condition code "F" and would be destroyed.

I bought my own stand alone Level IV prior to deployment from a dealer in VA w/all proper support docs and ATF paperwork. Those that created a "shortage" are the same people that sell OTV/IBA/SAPI on EBAY for personal profit and most likley is stolen GOVT Property. Those are the ones that waste tax dollars and the end user (soldier) pays in the end.

Final thought....a SM from this FOB was in a IED strike just a wekk ago...a hand sized piece of shrapnel struck him center mass. Result: IBA mitigated loss of life and serious internal injury, SM was RTD that day after full medical exam. Bottom line, IBA saves lives when properly worn and used w/approved SAPI in both OIF and OEF.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:41:00 PM EST
Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:56:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bayonet14:
As I am aware there is no shortage of SAPI. There were several just left behind by 4th ID. Policy now is you have complete IBA...to include front and back SAPI plates...NO EXCEPTIONS for ANYONE prior to movement north (IRAQ). The tests done here we to show 1st hand what these plates can do to save a life should a user be hit. This is to ensure and build confidenace w/soldiers that their equipment will do what its was designed for. The plate we shot was a code out condition "F". It could NEVER be issued to another soldier due to plate seperation on the back side lower right. (SO a plate was not "wasted" as it was condition code "F" and would be destroyed.

I bought my own stand alone Level IV prior to deployment from a dealer in VA w/all proper support docs and ATF paperwork. Those that created a "shortage" are the same people that sell OTV/IBA/SAPI on EBAY for personal profit and most likley is stolen GOVT Property. Those are the ones that waste tax dollars and the end user (soldier) pays in the end.

Final thought....a SM from this FOB was in a IED strike just a wekk ago...a hand sized piece of shrapnel struck him center mass. Result: IBA mitigated loss of life and serious internal injury, SM was RTD that day after full medical exam. Bottom line, IBA saves lives when properly worn and used w/approved SAPI in both OIF and OEF.




Thanks for the explanation.
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