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Posted: 8/2/2004 5:31:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/6/2004 11:49:08 AM EST by MadProfessor]
I bought some PCA Spectrum Polymer cased ammuntion a while ago thinking that it would be cool in a gee whiz sort of way. While it would probably work good in a bolt gun it is not going in my AR ever again.


I took this stuff to a Iowa members shoot on Friday and was shooting this stuff in my AR. The first mag went fine but on the second mag the gun jammed up hard, failing to go into battery. Apon inspection I discovered something in the bore, I then pulled a brush through the bore and pulled out the neck of one of the plastic cases. Just to be sure, I did it again, and pulled out another neck. Thats right folks, not one, but two necks melted to the chamber and stayed there when the case was ejected. This was witnessed by two other Iowa ARFCOM members. After looking at the ground for cases we discovered more then one that was buldged and missing a primer.

Here are some pics:

This picture is of some of the cases, note the case without a neck, the neck I pulled out of my chamber, and the case without a primer.




Close up of casing without primer.




Anyone wanna trade 300 rounds of PCA Spectrum for 300 rounds of Wolf?
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 6:48:51 AM EST
Welp, as they say welcome to the land of nothing new, very few ppl DONT have problems with that stuff. I shot 250rds and had about 5-6 do what yours did. I sold the remander 250 to someone. It isnt even a good deal 80bux for 500. In a case like this Wolf would be better and cheaper (I personally wont shoot wolf, but some may).

Im jus wondering if anyone has been letting the company know how shitty their ammo is?

I smell Class action lawsuit.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 6:53:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By die-tryin:
Im jus wondering if anyone has been letting the company know how shitty their ammo is?
I smell Class action lawsuit.



I smell a liberal conspiracy to cause irreparable damage to peoples guns. Now, where did I leave my tin-foil hat.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 1:12:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2004 1:12:47 PM EST by 223-4me]
the case seems really weak I picked up a couple at the range and took a lighter to them and they melted after just a couple seconds
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 2:34:36 PM EST
I've sent an email to the company, we'll see if they reply.
Link Posted: 8/2/2004 3:04:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/4/2004 8:19:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By obershutze916:

Originally Posted By 223-4me:
the case seems really weak I picked up a couple at the range and took a lighter to them and they melted after just a couple seconds



What did you think plastic would do when you did this????



Link Posted: 8/4/2004 12:47:57 PM EST
The blown primers might have happened because one of the case necks was in the chamber and taking up precious space causing excessive pressure. But the stuff sounds like crap no matter how you look at it. And NO this stuff would not be reloadable.
Link Posted: 8/4/2004 1:41:03 PM EST
Damn!!!!!

It will be interesting to see how NATEC responds and if they make efforts at correcting these issues.

I would really like to see them succeed and flourish, but it has been some time now since the first failures started to be reported(According to the folks here that have stated they contacted Natec)
and still the same issues are coming up.

Dutyload? NOPE!
Practice load? NOPE!!!
Defensive load? NOPE!!!!

Right now they are but a "Curious corner" on the ammo market.
Their customers are hoping for something better and taking a chance.

If they have the Morals of a chankroid encrusted Alley cat, they will respond by improving the product or admitting they have failed for now.

For the record.
I have 2,200 rounds of the Natec PCA downrange through 3 different platforms with 7 different failures noted.

At the same time I have had Zero (0 ) failures with the new Polymer coated Wolf Garbage in going on 3,000 rounds( The last 1,400 without a cleaning I might add!).

At some point, faith and hope in things runs weak.

I am nearing that point.

The Wolf has LOUSY accuracy, but I ain't worried about getting mangled while shooting the Crap!

Natec had better wake up quickly and do some damage controll!

S-28

Link Posted: 8/4/2004 4:01:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By MadProfessor:
I bought some PCA Spectrum Polymer cased ammuntion a while ago thinking that it would be cool in a gee whiz sort of way. While it would probably work good in a bolt gun it is not going in my AR ever again.


I took this stuff to a Iowa members shoot on Friday and was shooting this stuff in my AR. The first mag went fine but on the second mag the gun jammed up hard, failing to go into battery. Apon inspection I discovered something in the bore, I then pulled a brush through the bore and pulled out the neck of one of the plastic cases. Just to be sure, I did it again, and pulled out another neck. Thats right folks, not one, but two necks melted to the chamber and stayed there when the case was ejected. This was witnessed by two other Iowa ARFCOM members. After looking at the ground for cases we discovered more then one that was buldged and missing a primer.

Here are some pics:

This picture is of some of the cases, note the case without a neck, the neck I pulled out of my chamber, and the case without a primer.

www.hunt101.com/img/212874.jpg


Close up of casing without primer.

www.hunt101.com/img/212875.jpg


Anyone wanna trade 300 rounds of PCA Spectrum for 300 rounds of Wolf?




That'll learn ya! ....How accurate was it?
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 10:09:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:



That'll learn ya! ....How accurate was it?




It was about as accurate as any other .223 load.
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 3:32:30 AM EST
FWIW- I shot some of this through FA weapons and was not impressed. It also seems underpowered as the cyclic rate was slow.
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 5:14:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/6/2004 7:45:18 AM EST by die-tryin]
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 11:48:46 AM EST
Any my reply:



Sean -
Thank you again for taking the time to send your feedback. It really does help to know what the Users think of our technology and any suggestions/issues that they may have with the product's performance. Our #1 goal is to provide a safe and reliable product, and we appreciate your input so that we can continue to improve our ammunition.

Be assured that the issue you described has already been addressed and resolved. Although NATEC does not participate in the Web Forums, we do review many sites to assess consumer reaction/product issues and noticed that there was an increasing occurrence (although random) of "neck" issues, like the separating neck you wrote about. Please know, the neck separation is a rare occurrence with the PCA and happens if the injected polymer does not completely fill the neck area. We took internal action based on the web review and alerted our manufacturing/quality departments to determine what had changed in the production process, because this was not an issue evident in our initial shipments to our distributors. NATEC also continues to receive very good reviews from other consumers within the same product lots. After analysis, our manufacturing/quality departments have put stricter controls in their production process, and this sporadic neck issue should not occur again in our current (June forward) production lots.

We sincerely appreciate your interest in our PCA, and if you have any future questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us.
The NATEC Team

Link Posted: 8/6/2004 11:57:05 PM EST


We took internal action based on the web review and alerted our manufacturing/quality departments to determine what had changed in the production process, because this was not an issue evident in our initial shipments to our distributors.



Sure.
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 10:11:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By mattja:


We took internal action based on the web review and alerted our manufacturing/quality departments to determine what had changed in the production process, because this was not an issue evident in our initial shipments to our distributors.



Sure.




The last machinegun shoot I attended there was a guy shooting this stuff full-auto (M16) when it first came out, and he didnt have a single problem all day. I saw it first hand after he dumped mag after mag. So maybe there is some truth in this statement.
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 6:11:07 AM EST
i bought a couple of boxes to try, mini-14 likes it, pierced primers in one of my ar 15s. my opinion only- with chamber pressures hovering around 50,000 psi, what in the hell were they thinking?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:11:33 PM EST
This is where all of this FUSS started http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002infantry/husseini.pdf

For a current reasoning to why this technology is trying to exist ( Very cool and I would of loved a lighter combat load for my SAW or 240golf) http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session6/spiegel.ppt

Make of it what You will, my friends.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:47:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:48:37 AM EST by 91B30V]
Madprofessors pics are exactly what happend to me as far as the casings were concerned. In my 16" carbine the rounds did cycle. But, in both of my 20" rifles the rounds would eject the empty case, but not have enough power to fully cycle the bolt to pick up the next round. In other words I had a single shot self loader. Well it was only 200 rounds so I will consider myself lucky and be glad I got to prove it to myself.

So in the end a few less pounds in ammo weight versus reliability....let me think.

I'll get back to you on that
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 4:48:05 PM EST
i did some testing with the PCA ammo over the weekend. i had two different loads with me - the commercial 55 gr FMJ load with grey cases (lot # PCA04 jul B) and the new military-spec 62 grain (lot # PCA M855 0604) with white cases. the neck tension in the commercial load was a concern - the bullet could easily be removed just by pushing it over with the thumb. when pressed against a hard surface, the bullet would be pushed back into the case. however, with the military load, the neck tension is a lot stronger, and i'm unable to push the bullet into the case or remove it by hand. PCA addressed the neck issue on the military case.

here's a summary of our shooting session:
rifle A - LMT MRP upper receiver with 14.5", 1x7" twist barrel. Colt bolt carrer, LMT enhanced M4 bolt.
rifle B - bushmaster upper receiver with 11.5", 1x9" twist heavy barrel, bushmaster bolt and carrier, Troy Industries MRF-C rail forend.
rifle C - Stag arms upper receiver with 11.5", 1x9" heavy barrel, ARMS SIR forend

lowers were all bushmaster select-fire registered receivers.

magazines used were 30 rnd USGI and 30 rnd thermold.

ambient temperature at time of testing was approx 92° F and humidity was 45%

1. rifle A - commercial load, 20 rnds semi - no malfunctions. 20 rnds FA, 2-3 round bursts - no malfs.

2. rifle B - commercial load, 28 rnds FA, short bursts - no malfs. 28 rnds FA, long bursts, no malfs.

3. rifle C - military load, 28 rnds FA, long bursts - no malfs.

4. rifle B - military load, 80 rounds in 4 magazines, short and long FA bursts, no malfs.

5. rifle A - military load, 50 rounds in 2 mags, long bursts, no malfs.
50 rounds in USGI mags, short bursts, semi and double taps - no malfs.
50 rounds in 2 thermold mags, both unloaded in 25 round continuous bursts, no malfs. a round was loaded in the hot chamber and allowed to sit for about 5 minutes immediately after, and when examined, no melting or effect on the case was observed.

i had soaked 20 rounds each of the military and commercial ammo in a container of water for about 48 hours. all rounds were completely submerged. water was drained at the range and the ammo loaded and fired immediately.

commercial load in rifle A - no malfs.
military load in rifle A - 1 failure to fire. primer had normal strike on it.
i fired the remaining ammo out of rifle A and B using a combination of mags, on the move, on both semi and full auto, with no more malfunctions. my inital concern with being able to remove the bullet in the commercial load with thumb pressure is still a concern.
some of the commerical cases suffered partial seperation at the neck, while the military cases showed no sign of it. i'd feel a lot better about using the commercial load if the cases held up like the military load.

summary: 120 rounds commercial - no malfunctions.
400 rounds military load - one malfunction (soaked round, failure to ignite primer).

cheers,
MM
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:30:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By MadProfessor:
Any my reply:



Sean -
Thank you again for taking the time to send your feedback. It really does help to know what the Users think of our technology and any suggestions/issues that they may have with the product's performance. Our #1 goal is to provide a safe and reliable product, and we appreciate your input so that we can continue to improve our ammunition.

Be assured that the issue you described has already been addressed and resolved. Although NATEC does not participate in the Web Forums, we do review many sites to assess consumer reaction/product issues and noticed that there was an increasing occurrence (although random) of "neck" issues, like the separating neck you wrote about. Please know, the neck separation is a rare occurrence with the PCA and happens if the injected polymer does not completely fill the neck area. We took internal action based on the web review and alerted our manufacturing/quality departments to determine what had changed in the production process, because this was not an issue evident in our initial shipments to our distributors. NATEC also continues to receive very good reviews from other consumers within the same product lots. After analysis, our manufacturing/quality departments have put stricter controls in their production process, and this sporadic neck issue should not occur again in our current (June forward) production lots.

We sincerely appreciate your interest in our PCA, and if you have any future questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us.
The NATEC Team



---------------------
Sooooo, has there been a recall yet or are they waiting for the legal papers to start rolling in?

I'll take a metal cased cartride....any metal, over a plastic one.....until the mechanisms of guns change significantly, which is unlikely.

Actually I'd like to have "cartridgeless" ammo...load a propulsion system in bulk and bullets as you need them.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:26:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:59:35 AM EST
No just rifle cartridges, particularly in machineguns.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 8:19:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I guess you have "issues" with cardboard or plastic shotgun shells too?

-- Chuck




Nope, just with plastic centerfire rifle ammo.


MM, where did you get the military stuff? I'd be willing to give some of that a go, just for shits and giggles.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 7:51:13 AM EST
I just picked up another 5 boxes of the 55 gr FMJ.
I had no issues with the first four boxes I tried.
I hate to use up my Fed XM193, so I guess it's back to Wolf polymer coated for plinking.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:46:37 AM EST
I was a victim of this ammo as well, Although I did not purchase quite as much as you as I only wanted to test it out. I picked up 3 - 20 round boxes at a local gunshow which I took on my last trip to the range. To make a long story short I managed only 5 rounds prior to a SEVERE failure that prevented me from using the weapon any further. I basically had the same problem, the case neck had seperated from the case and remained in the chamber of the rifle. It would not even come out with a rod, had to be broken down and messed with using a dental pick, then I managed to push it out with a rod. Needless to say, definately not ammo I even want for the range. I do plan on contacting the manufacturer as well, so I will aprise you of any response.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 4:51:04 AM EST
I'm just currious of what the lot #'s / dates were of the ammo that's failing vs. lot #'s /dates of the functioning ammo. The only way to really tell if they fixed the problem is to know when the stuff was manufactured. Just because it was bought yesterday doesn't mean it's the more recent manufacture and some of the recently reported issues could be older lots (or they just haven't fixed the problem).

I'd really like to know if experiences with the newer lots of ammo are good vs the older lots.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:05:51 PM EST
I don't know if PCA will provide their respective lot # info on bad vs good lots of this crap, but I do still have the boxes with lot numbers intact for anyone interested in this info. I'd be curious to know if I have ammo from the same batch as anyone else out there with problems. I purchased mine only about 3 weeks ago, but of course the dealer could have had it for some time. I personally don't care for the response from Natec that was posted on this thread. If you sell a product you should stand behind it, period. I would expect a refund, or at the very least some replacement ammo from their "new" improved batch.
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