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Posted: 2/3/2009 1:01:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2009 1:14:15 PM EDT by Geohans]
My aluminum mags, of all makes, practically jump out of the magwell when the mag release is pressed; the several Pmags I tried today act like those old Glock mags that stick. Is this common? or a design/spec problem? Lower is American Firearms Manufacturing.

Neither loaded nor empty pmags will drop. ETA just found the other thread; any updates? thanks.
Link Posted: 2/3/2009 6:54:46 PM EDT
Do you have any other lowers to try the mags in?

If so see if they will drop out of the other lowers, preferably another brand of lower.

The mags may be out of spec. but there's a good possibility that the lowers the culprit.
Link Posted: 2/4/2009 8:47:41 AM EDT
Given that all his other mags work, its hard to see how the lower is the culprit.
Link Posted: 2/4/2009 10:15:39 AM EDT
This comes up about once a week. Alot of these lowers are tighter in the mag' well dep't. Pmags (as Dr Drake has noted) are made to work with Colt spec lowers. The finish work on some of these other lowers just isn't up to snuff. Alot of people grind on the Pmags, but I'd say ditch the substandard lower and get a good one.
Link Posted: 2/4/2009 7:50:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Given that all his other mags work, its hard to see how the lower is the culprit.


And that is the rub.

Who should bend first? Why should the lower maker when true USGI mags do drop free or should MAGPUL when in essence is not a true USGI mag?

My KAC lower is about 50% when it comes to PMAGS but my DPMS is 100%. So in this instance, my DPMS lower is a better spec lower than my KAC.

Link Posted: 2/4/2009 7:54:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2009 7:56:23 PM EDT by Krink]
I have a new TKS lower that about half of my PMags drag slightly the others all drop free.it isnt enough that I would worry about it but
I found it interesting all of my steel/alum mags drop free


they all drop free in my Mega/ameetec lowers
Link Posted: 2/5/2009 5:34:09 AM EDT
This whole pmag koolaid is really getting old. Yes, its a good product. Yes, its a good company that supports this board. Yes, I own and use pmags. But idea that pmags are the sole determinant on what is or is not a "tight mag well" is just bull. If GI mags work then the lower is in spec.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 6:02:54 AM EDT
That's the nub of the question: if an aluminum mag drops, then. . . . . Are you saying PMAGS are only suitaable for Colt lowers? I've already seen one post of a guy w/ a 6520 that doesn't drop; bet there are others.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 8:16:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 9:27:47 AM EDT by Foolish_Mortal]
My tan pmags drop out of my RRA lower when they're empty, and my black ones don't. With one round left, they all drop. Both the black and tan ones drop fine out of my Remington R-15 and my Colt 6921. My black ones are dated 3/08 and my tan ones are dated 8/08. Guess what? I don't care if they do or don't drop. I know, it's blasphemy for me to say that, but you know, I'm not taking any carbine courses or going into a combat situation with my hobby rifle. If I do take another carbine course, I'll use my Colt. Secondly, if someone breaks into my house, all I've got is my RRA with a 30 round pmag, and I don't take the blockhead down, the least of my problems is my mag not dropping free.

People are making too much out of nothing. If you expect to be in a combat situation, buy a combat rifle.

(No offense to the OP. I wasn't calling the OP a whiner...)
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 1:26:10 PM EDT
I have a Colt 6920 that has issues with FDE Pmags. Black, OD drop just fine. I have 4 FDE and have drop issues with 2 of them. I sanded one of them down and now it works fine the other still hangs up. I will just use those two for range practice.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:54:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Geohans:
That's the nub of the question: if an aluminum mag drops, then. . . . . Are you saying PMAGS are only suitable for Colt lowers? I've already seen one post of a guy w/ a 6520 that doesn't drop; bet there are others.


I am saying I have an Armalite and all of my 30+ Pmags drop free empty. What I am also saying is that these other lowers are NOT TO COLT SPECS.
Does it surprise anyone that there are certain brands that are made to tighter tolerances than others?. If I was designing a magazine, I would not use some cheap, off the wall lower to fit it too. Magpul made the magazine to work with Colt specs. Makes perfect sense to me.
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 9:22:56 AM EDT
mustang, please note GGreen–– he has a Colt. that seems to challenge your argument.
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 9:52:54 AM EDT
I have one AR that has trouble with PMags (All USGI work flawlessly). I file the first rib down on all my 30's and the problem is solved. Do I consider that rifle out of spec, hell no. It is accurate and eats every thing I feed it.

Magpul could sovle the problem by lowering the first rib a tiny bit, although it would probably be a ton of money to change the molds. I think they are revamping their Pmags though.......
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 10:06:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Geohans:
mustang, please note GGreen–– he has a Colt. that seems to challenge your argument.


Colt Military and Colt Commercial rifles are not built at the same plant and do not seem to be built to the same specifications unfortuantely...

Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 10:27:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2009 10:29:25 AM EDT by MikeSearson]
I have various lowers: Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, PWA, Colt, Tom Sawyer, and Armalite.

All GI's drop free.
HK mags drop free
Black, FDE, and OD 30 Round PMAGs drop free
20 round PMAGS (Black and FDE) do not drop free (too light when empty?)
30 round windowed Orange PMAGS do not drop free.(I suspect these might be out of spec)

How can it be the lowers?
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 11:57:45 AM EDT
Its not the lowers, its the PMAGs.

I've got old PMAGS and i've got new PMAGS. When I try all these mags in 4 different lowers (Noveske,RRA,MEGA, Anvil) the newer ones mostly drop free whereas the older ones (7/08 man.) mostly dont drop free.

And since I know my lowers havent changed since I bought the 7/08 PMAGS, then that means Magpul changed something on THEIR end. And what that means is that the PMAG is the variable, not my 4 different lowers

I dont see how this is so hard for some people to understand.
Link Posted: 2/8/2009 12:44:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2009 12:51:53 PM EDT by 1992mustang]
a. All of mine work fine, so I don't have a problem
b. the new Pmags appear to have ribs with less relief, are missing the imprint for the window and one of the upper ribs has been removed.new Pmag Photos
scroll down the thread for pics of the new Pmags . . . bottom of page 1
Link Posted: 2/9/2009 9:07:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2009 9:08:28 AM EDT by Dude-Man]
Originally Posted By DarkEarth:
Its not the lowers, its the PMAGs.
I've got old PMAGS and i've got new PMAGS. When I try all these mags in 4 different lowers (Noveske,RRA,MEGA, Anvil) the newer ones mostly drop free whereas the older ones (7/08 man.) mostly dont drop free.
And since I know my lowers havent changed since I bought the 7/08 PMAGS, then that means Magpul changed something on THEIR end. And what that means is that the PMAG is the variable, not my 4 different lowers
I dont see how this is so hard for some people to understand.


Well, yes and no. From almost the very beginning we've been individually gauging every single PMAG that leaves the warehouse to fit in the Colt M16 magwell. However, we have tightened up our gauges over time to help the PMAG drop from an ever wider variety of smaller-than-spec magwells. Basically, the older PMAGs are in-spec and will still drop from a Colt M16 but the newer ones are a slight bit smaller.

What is causing all these issues in the first place is two fold:
1. The Colt TDP (Technical Data Package) has never been made available and consequently all AR lowers have been reversed engineered with a wide variety of tolerances.
2. Marketing factors. The in-vogue thing today for manufacturers is to make their magwells smaller and smaller so that USGI alloy mags don't rattle around so much. If mags rattle less in your lower versus the competition then it gives the impression that you build a higher quality product. Hence the incentive to make a tight well.

The question has also been asked in the past of why a PMAG may not drop when most of the time a USGI alloy mag will? The reasoning is that aluminum sheet metal can be made pretty thin which gives a decent amount of room to work with. However, due to the increased wall thickness necessary for a robust polymer magazine along with our smoother-feeding constant-curve internal geometry we need all the magwell space we can get as afforded by the Colt design.

Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service


Link Posted: 2/9/2009 10:38:32 AM EDT
Dude,

what can we do with our PMAGS so they function properly in non mil lowers? since basically, none of us have mil lowers.
Link Posted: 2/9/2009 11:07:06 AM EDT
This is how i made mine work. You sand the contact points on the back on the mag. Sand and try if you see the spring move in the mag you just need to sand a little more and they will start dropping out like they should. Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 2/9/2009 12:08:46 PM EDT
That is actually a good way to get PMAGs to drop from tight lowers. Those two little pads were added to take up some of the slack in the looser magwells- and yes, I get calls saying, "My PMAGs are loose in my lower and rattle around a bit. Is there anything I can do?"
Such is the nature of building items to fit other people's products...

Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 7:37:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2009 7:39:08 AM EDT by gravediggingaditch]
i saw yesterday - a guy had sanded his lower with light sandpaper - the inside of the lower had a silver shine afterwards and the mags flew out smooth. . . . I do NOT want to have to sand the lower.

can somebody post pics of where to sand the mags to make them a little less tight?

Also - do any of you notice a difference between the drop of a full mag vs the drop of an empty mag? Does the mag, when full, not drop as easy as it does when empty?

thnx
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 7:51:17 AM EDT
You guys need to buy in spec lowers and then you won't have problems.
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 8:30:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GDITheman:
You guys need to buy in spec lowers and then you won't have problems.


Exactly. And why are you scared to sand on the inside of the mag well on your lower? You are doing the finishing work your manufacturer should have done. No different than polishing a feedramp on a pistol. It is a good thing to have it smooth
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 8:59:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2009 9:01:48 AM EDT by gravediggingaditch]
so what companies make in spec lowers and what companies dont?

I'm new to this world but it sounds odd that you would buy a lower to fit the mag . . . ??

as to sanding the lower - i don't necessarily want the silver finish / worn look on the inside of the lower ? i would think it better to just find a mag that works with the lower?
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 2:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2009 2:28:12 PM EDT by amftx]
Originally Posted By Geohans:
Dude,

what can we do with our PMAGS so they function properly in non mil lowers? since basically, none of us have mil lowers.


4 of my 7 PMAGs had different batch codes I assume, and would hardly insert much less drop from my POF. 3 of the 7 were perfect. All 7 were fine in my RRA.

I basically magfu#$ed the pof magwel with each mag so the inside of the lower would mark the PMAG where it was rubbing, then took my handy superknife (razorblade) and shaved a couple of micrometers off of the PMAG where it was rubbing. If looking at the rear of a PMAG I shaved about 1/2 inch in length and a micrometer or two deep off of the rear right and left corners/edges. VIOLA, now they insert and drop like a charm and you can't even tell that work had to be done.

Some guys are using sandpaper to sand them down.

Link Posted: 2/13/2009 3:26:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
This whole pmag koolaid is really getting old. Yes, its a good product. Yes, its a good company that supports this board. Yes, I own and use pmags. But idea that pmags are the sole determinant on what is or is not a "tight mag well" is just bull. If GI mags work then the lower is in spec.


I agree if other metal Mags drop free and the P-Mags don't then it's not the ARs mag well that is tight. I would contact Magpul and get their input to getting the Mags back in house for inspection.
Link Posted: 2/13/2009 3:34:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rifleshooter474:
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
This whole pmag koolaid is really getting old. Yes, its a good product. Yes, its a good company that supports this board. Yes, I own and use pmags. But idea that pmags are the sole determinant on what is or is not a "tight mag well" is just bull. If GI mags work then the lower is in spec.


I agree if other metal Mags drop free and the P-Mags don't then it's not the ARs mag well that is tight. I would contact Magpul and get their input to getting the Mags back in house for inspection.


Dude-man=Magpul and he already chimed in earlier in the thread. I am just glad I don't have a POS lower and therefore, just get to giggle at those of you who do.
Link Posted: 2/14/2009 5:00:12 AM EDT
I've read on here that some people with older S&W M&P15s have had issues with Pmags fitting in the mag well and so I was a little bit nervous about ordering 5 last week. Mine is an older S&W too and the pmags fit fine and drop free. Nice product.
Link Posted: 2/14/2009 8:06:04 PM EDT
wow just wow i cant believe someone would believe it is the lowers fault if magpul knew that some lowers were tight and "out of spec" shouldnt they have taken that in concideration while designing their mags?

the idea of buying a mag and them having to sand it to work properly just doesnt fly with me

if usgi mags drop free and p-mags dont then its the p-mags that are the problem

you cant blame something that was already engineered to work with one thing ,for not working with a product that wasnt in exsistance when it was designed
Link Posted: 2/15/2009 12:31:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brokefromguns:
wow just wow i cant believe someone would believe it is the lowers fault if magpul knew that some lowers were tight and "out of spec" shouldnt they have taken that in concideration while designing their mags?

the idea of buying a mag and them having to sand it to work properly just doesnt fly with me

if usgi mags drop free and p-mags dont then its the p-mags that are the problem

you cant blame something that was already engineered to work with one thing ,for not working with a product that wasnt in exsistance when it was designed


Don't buy Pmags. Buy cheap USGI crap. That will leave more Pmags for those of us who have guns that accept them.
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 9:55:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2009 10:07:42 AM EDT by TheLefty]
After hearing of more than a few people having issues with the M-rev pmags, I figured I'd try the few that I have in my LMT.

I have 3 M-rev P-mags (Black, 30 rd, non-window), all from 1/09, and none of them drop free, and all 3 of them give a little resistance going in the magwell.

That being said, I tried the other few P-mags that I have, the results being as follows:

Two 30 rd FDE w/window from 1/08 = both drop free
One 30 rd OD w/window from 1/08 = drops free
One 30 rd Black w/window from 10/08 = drops free
One 30 rd Black w/window from 12/07 = does NOT drop and encounters resistance when being inserted (just like the M-rev P-mags)

Now, this is only a small sample tested through one lower, but that's enough to tell me that something must've changed on their end. It's not a huge deal, but in light of this, I may not be buying anymore P-mags for a while.
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 11:04:31 AM EDT
I have 3 Pmags on the way, which I believe are the new production ones. I'll report their fitment in my Spike's Tactical lower.
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 3:22:50 PM EDT
I hit mine with a little Armour All and they drop slick as glass. It also keeps them nice and shiny clean.
Link Posted: 2/17/2009 8:36:48 PM EDT
I own a newer model S&W M&P15 and have purchased quite a few Pmags both in 30rd and 20rd sizes.

Of the 30rd (all are black no window) I have 10 of the new 'M' version.

All my Pmags (30rd ('M' and not 'M') and 20rd) snap in easily and drop free just as easily.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Link Posted: 2/18/2009 4:46:25 PM EDT
You can send them to me!
Link Posted: 2/22/2009 4:53:13 PM EDT
Just putting in my $.02... 4 new Pmags came in yesterday, none drop free in my Del-Ton lower. USGI all jump out of there. No to decide if I should sell them or sand the magwell... very close to working great, just not quite there.
Link Posted: 2/22/2009 4:58:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By forrestcook:
Just putting in my $.02... 4 new Pmags came in yesterday, none drop free in my Del-Ton lower. USGI all jump out of there. No to decide if I should sell them or sand the magwell... very close to working great, just not quite there.


Sand the mags, not the lower.
Link Posted: 2/22/2009 10:52:21 PM EDT
just figured I'd post a few pics to show the kind of MINOR modification it took to get them all dropping free and easy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3302422631_5920e4c5b7.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3336/3303253530_9d31df60f1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3303253000_6257112384.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3433/3302422457_26a1bdba59_o.jpg

I just used a sanding bit on a dremel and smoothed a very thin strip on either side of the spine. Now they all work perfectly. It's laughable how little plastic i sanded away to get this result.
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 6:58:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2009 6:59:41 AM EDT by Magpul]
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 8:34:32 AM EDT
Why's it so important that they drop free? I happen to like the earlier non-drop free Glock mags.
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 10:10:52 AM EDT
So I can have a new mag on the way when this one is dropping out
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 11:39:56 AM EDT
I just received some of the new Pmags... They do not fall free from my Spike's Tactical Lower either?

I also have a PLR-16 and they are tight and the way in and on the way out... Fortunatly the old ones work just fine

At least I have other uses for them... Like a Sig556 (they shoot out of there when you press the mag release button.)
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 12:45:48 PM EDT
Hey Justin I appreciate your patience with us, and the quality product you guys make. I love all my Magpul equipment.
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 12:48:17 PM EDT
Btw... Mine is really not a complaint just a report. If they do not drop free, they cannot break on concrete. Right?
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 12:49:19 PM EDT
I hear ya man...I'll take them and even swap some of my Mil-Spec Aluminum mags to boot. lol
Link Posted: 2/23/2009 12:59:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GDITheman:
You guys need to buy in spec lowers and then you won't have problems.

Truth is....Not everyone has the extra cash to buy Colts,or Larue type of quality. We do our best
to buy what will work, Some can buy 100 mags at a time or $1200 scopes with $300 rings, and
then they're are some of us that buying 2 mags a month is tough because we have to feed
a family. If PMags want to cater to Colt, fine. We don't need someone to tell us to buy "Good" Lowers.
How do you think that makes all the other venders that SUPPORT THIS SITE feel? Sorry for
yelling, but I'm one of those guys that could barely scrape up enough for a homebuilt AR. And it
works, and I won't trade it because someones Mag says it's not to spec.

Link Posted: 2/24/2009 6:57:14 AM EDT
Just received my first batch of PMAGS, green ones, from Bravo Company. They seem to drop free from my Colt just like GI mags do. They are the older style with the false window and deeper waffle pattern, btw.
Link Posted: 2/24/2009 7:02:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MtnGrouseHtr:
I hit mine with a little Armour All and they drop slick as glass. It also keeps them nice and shiny clean.


It must be fun doing speed reloads with the slippery armor all.
Link Posted: 2/24/2009 7:08:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Buscadero:
Originally Posted By GDITheman:
You guys need to buy in spec lowers and then you won't have problems.

Truth is....Not everyone has the extra cash to buy Colts,or Larue type of quality. We do our best
to buy what will work, Some can buy 100 mags at a time or $1200 scopes with $300 rings, and
then they're are some of us that buying 2 mags a month is tough because we have to feed
a family. If PMags want to cater to Colt, fine. We don't need someone to tell us to buy "Good" Lowers.
How do you think that makes all the other venders that SUPPORT THIS SITE feel? Sorry for
yelling, but I'm one of those guys that could barely scrape up enough for a homebuilt AR. And it
works, and I won't trade it because someones Mag says it's not to spec.



It is pretty simple. Manufacturers need to use a set of parameters for their designs. The most obvious choice in this case is a USGI mil spec lower. Does it make sense for Magpul to go out and design a magazine around the 97 variations of a non mil spec lower? No. They designed it around a known set of values.

It also helps that some of their largest customers use mil spec lowers.

You guys should not get upset with Magpul because their products do not fit your out of spec receivers. You should be upset that the receiver you bought was not manufactured to the standards. If other manufacturers used proper QC, then a lot of you guys would not have this issue.
Link Posted: 2/24/2009 7:08:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2009 7:30:51 AM EDT by 45FMJoe]
Originally Posted By Dude-Man:
Originally Posted By Geohans:
mustang, please note GGreen–– he has a Colt. that seems to challenge your argument.


Colt Military and Colt Commercial rifles are not built at the same plant and do not seem to be built to the same specifications unfortuantely...

Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service


That one I cannot agree with since I read an article on M1911forum.org where a site staff member visited the Colt factory and was given the tour. Colt's Manufacturing purchases the civilian Match Target rifles from Colt's Defense (the buildings are right next to each other) and sells them to their distributors. Colt's Defense rifles (the LE line) are made on the same line as the Colt's MFG "civilian" rifles and all are made on the same lines as the government M4s. Colt is not a large operation and they do not have different plants that make different rifles.

ETA - This is in no way trying to be a dick to you, Justin.
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