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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:33:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 10:49:45 AM EST by Aw4g63]
Hey guys, just got a few Palmetto State blem lowers that look spectacular as they usually do.

I've never done an AR Pistol and after searching, I'm not finding much clarity on the topic.

They're marked "Multi", I'm assuming they're rifle lowers marked "Multi" but I saw something online mentioned that some where on the 4473 when I picked them up the FFL had an option to put Rifle, Pistol or Other. He never asked me.

Can I just build one into a pistol and one into a rifle? Do I need to have him change the 4473? Is it too late?

I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


I'd love to build a pistol but obviously don't want to go against the law.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 10:50:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 10:52:00 AM EST by 850SheepDog]
From what I understand, the dealer on the 4473 should have checked "other" for your stripped lower but I dont think that is a deal breaker (i could be wrog). I know you need a tax stamp for an SBR but not for an AR Pistol. It just can't have a butt-stock on it.

If you slap a stock on your "pistol" it becomes a short barreled rifle and thus, requires an extra donation to Uncle Sam and a nice long wait for the paperwork to process.

*EDIT* I'm sure others will come along with more expert advice. I do think I am correct tho.

AR Pistol - no stamp required.

SBR - yes, you need a stamp.

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 12:16:11 PM EST
Thanks, I know the basics of the NFA stuff. I've just never had "Multi" marked virgin lowers. I'm excited to build a pistol now. I'll have to read up some more around here later.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 12:47:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.



Link Posted: 11/19/2012 1:39:57 PM EST
You can have it marked 'phased plasma, ~40watt' if you wanted.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 1:52:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 3:44:41 PM EST
Logic would dictate that the same does NOT hold true for an SBR though. Correct?
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..



Link Posted: 11/19/2012 3:53:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..




Since when? Did they change that law yesterday?
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:36:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 4:46:33 PM EST by iNeXile556]

Originally Posted By shawski:
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..




Since when? Did they change that law yesterday?

No, last year with the publishing of ruling ATF 2011-4

OP, your GTG. Lowers by ATF regulations transfer as "other" in box 18 of the 4473 and listed as a receiver in box 29. This is not optional it is regulation that all FFLs must follow.

Provided your lower has never been barreled as a rifle, i.e. never had a stock and a barrel on it at the same time, then you can make it into a pistol. That is under Federal regs. Check your state and local laws.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:44:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 4:53:26 PM EST by streetmachine18]
I don't have the law in front of me but I know the ATF passed a new law saying once a rifle always a rifle. If you make your stripped "other" lower you bought into a pistol you can switch the upper with a 16"er and slap on a butt stock. You legally have a rifle you can switch back and forth. But if you first build it into a rifle you can't make it into a pistol technically. How they would know which came first the chicken or the egg I don't know I guess you would have to take pictures to document it. For your own protection.

Btw multi just means the caliber denotation will let you run .223 5.56 or like someone else said "phased plasma"! (Good one)

Check your local laws and as always your mileage may vary.

(Edit) ATF 2011-4 also states you can basically build a SBR with a regular 6 position buffer tube and as long as there is no stock on it it is a pistol. The fact that it will accept a stock doesn't make it a rifle. A buffer tube is just a buffer tube.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:53:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By streetmachine18:
I don't have the law in front of me but I know the ATF passed a new law saying once a rifle always a rifle. If you make your stripped "other" lower you bought into a pistol you can switch the upper with a 16"er and slap on a butt stock. You legally have a rifle you can switch back and forth. But if you first build it into a rifle you can't make it into a pistol technically. How they would know which came first the chicken or the egg I don't know I guess you would have to take pictures to document it. For your own protection.

Btw multi just means the caliber denotation will let you run .223 5.56 or like someone else said "phased plasma"! (Good one)

Check your local laws and as always your mileage may vary.
Your right in a way. The ATF cannot pass any law. That would be like your local police passing a law. The ruling was changed to properly follow the existing law that was enacted by congress in 1968.

But yes, if it starts life as a rifle, it will remain a rifle unless you turn it into a NFA firearm which is a SBR or a firearm made from a rifle. That route is a form 1, $200 and a looooong wait.

A pistol/handgun may be converted to a rifle or other title1 firearm and then returned to a pistol/handgun provided it began life as a pistol/handgun.

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:47:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..



False.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 7:34:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Your right in a way. The ATF cannot pass any law. That would be like your local police passing a law. The ruling was changed to properly follow the existing law that was enacted by congress in 1968.
But yes, if it starts life as a rifle, it will remain a rifle unless you turn it into a NFA firearm which is a SBR or a firearm made from a rifle. That route is a form 1, $200 and a looooong wait.
A pistol/handgun may be converted to a rifle or other title1 firearm and then returned to a pistol/handgun provided it began life as a pistol/handgun.


This is my understanding as well. A stripped lower has to be transferred to you as "Other". You can build in into a pistol. You can disassemble it, build it as a rifle (16+" barrel). Then if you want you can disassemble it and built it back into the original Pistol configuration.

MAHA

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 8:25:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..




Not according to the ATF. If you have a separate 16" barreled upper with a stock, you can switch the Pistol to a Rifle and back. You just can't switch a rifle to a pistol w/o an SBR stamp and engravings. Logic has NOTHING to do with it, unfortunately.
Link Posted: 11/20/2012 1:28:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 1:37:56 AM EST by Aw4g63]
Originally Posted By streetmachine18:
I don't have the law in front of me but I know the ATF passed a new law saying once a rifle always a rifle. If you make your stripped "other" lower you bought into a pistol you can switch the upper with a 16"er and slap on a butt stock. You legally have a rifle you can switch back and forth. But if you first build it into a rifle you can't make it into a pistol technically. How they would know which came first the chicken or the egg I don't know I guess you would have to take pictures to document it. For your own protection.

Btw multi just means the caliber denotation will let you run .223 5.56 or like someone else said "phased plasma"! (Good one)

Check your local laws and as always your mileage may vary.

(Edit) ATF 2011-4 also states you can basically build a SBR with a regular 6 position buffer tube and as long as there is no stock on it it is a pistol. The fact that it will accept a stock doesn't make it a rifle. A buffer tube is just a buffer tube.





Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By shawski:
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Aw4g63:
I always thought it would be marked as PISTOL if usable as a pistol.


Unless your state has it's own law saying otherwise, markings on the lower are legally meaningless. You can build your stripped lower into pistol.

"Pistol" marked lowers are just feel-good markings. They hold no legal weight.





But once a pistol, always a pistol..




Since when? Did they change that law yesterday?

No, last year with the publishing of ruling ATF 2011-4

OP, your GTG. Lowers by ATF regulations transfer as "other" in box 18 of the 4473 and listed as a receiver in box 29. This is not optional it is regulation that all FFLs must follow.

Provided your lower has never been barreled as a rifle, i.e. never had a stock and a barrel on it at the same time, then you can make it into a pistol. That is under Federal regs. Check your state and local laws.





Thanks guys! I really appreciate you guys citing where on the form and the ATF "release". It really helps instead of just saying "yes" or "no". Thanks for your time!

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