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Posted: 5/6/2003 12:09:21 AM EDT
Well boys, me and my AR's are going our separate ways. I just can't afford to upkeep and shoot them anymore. They have been some of the most expensive and headache inducing guns I have ever owned. I could compare it to trying to maintain a brand new ferarri and porsche on a middle class budget.

Unfortunatly it shouldn't be this way, considering that the AR system is the most common assault rifle system in the USA. In early 1980's it was possible to build a milspec AR for a little over $120. Now 20 years later it costs as much as $700 to build a decent one that may not even be milspec!

Due to unconstitutional gun control laws, mind washed neo-cons, and greedy vendors, and overall reliability issues, I just can't take it anymore.

Even so, I have enjoyed shooting them, and apriciated the help I have gotten from this forum in building and buying them.

As to what assault rifle system I will be converting to, it will be custom built, bulgarian AK-74's. These guns are milspec, cost about $260 total to build and the mags only cost $6-8 a peice when bought in bulk. Not only that, decent ammo is dirt cheap, and performs decently in this calibur. Not as good as 5.56, but good none the less.
-------
I will be posting several uppers, stocks, and over 50 mags for sale in the equipment exchange, for good prices. So be on the look out.


Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:26:00 AM EDT
You're an idiot.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:30:02 AM EDT
no, really...tell him how you feel
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:36:27 AM EDT
You aren't even going to keep one? I just can't see it, but if that is what makes you happy, more power to you. Good luck. no sarcasm intended
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:19:24 AM EDT
I hear some of what your saying. I remeber back in the early 90's, I'd just got out of the Army, and my experience with GI issue M-16's had left me none too impressed with these weapons. At that time they where around $300, and I remember laughing out loud at someone who wanted to trade me a minty SP-1 for a S&W-41 I had, and still have come to think of it. After the AWB I saw the prices go up, and up, and started seeing civilian models that would outshoot bolt guns. Eventually, I got a Frank White upper to shoot Highpower. Just this past weekend, I bought a second one, a 16" lightweight carbine. I have to admit though, for a knockabout casual plinker/field gun that you could throw behind the seat of your truck and forget, I sure miss a little Romanian SKS I had once that cost me $89. It never would shoot better than 2" at 100yds, but it was fun. I sold it about a year later for $150 and regret doing so. I'm hoping my new 16" carbine will be as much fun. I have a few expensive guns now, Kimber-82, a Volquarsen custom, a custom bench gun, and wouldn't dream of actually taking one out in the rain and mudd, or climbing through creekbeds in the Texas hill country with them. I think past a certain point they become prestige items, like a swiss watch, or a gold belt buckle. I took one out to the range a while back, and was trying a batch of new loads, and wanted to do some serious accuracy work from the bench, and it just wasn't happening. A young guy, in his early twenty's walked over and asked me about the gun, obviously hoping I'd offer to let him shoot it. I did, but I felt irritated. When I realized how I was comming across, I chastized myself and appologised. We got to talking and spent the rest of the afternoon taking bets for soda's and cigarettes, plinking at paper plates, empty ammo boxes, and soda cans at 100yds, mostly from the standing unsupported with open sights. I think that might have been the most fun I've had shooting in years. There's nothing wrong with big dollar guns, but you can have just as much fun, without spending so damn much. I think for my future purchases, I'm going to consider a guns most fun for the buck ratio, as heavily as it's rating on the "Wow, now that's nice!" scale.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:26:21 AM EDT
I'm interested in the mags. At least about 4-6 of them or so. I'm dirt poor, so, I only have 1 AR, but so far it hasn't been all that expensive. Ammo is about on par with my pistol, so, I'm not compaining about that. I agree that acquisition costs are high, but I havn't had mine long enough to have to have spent a lot of money on upkeep. Now that you have your AR, exactly what is costing you so much money?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:12:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jtw2: You're an idiot.
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I forgive you for that. If you shot as much as I do (1000-1500+rds a month)you'd understand.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:19:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin: I agree that acquisition costs are high, but I havn't had mine long enough to have to have spent a lot of money on upkeep. Now that you have your AR, exactly what is costing you so much money?
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It's mainly ammo. I am a shooting addict. I have 12 guns that I get out and shoot all the time and it gets costly. I am a young guy who works part time, and I am going to be going back to school soon, so I just can't afford decent 5.56 ammo. When more than half the money you make in a month is going towards ammo, somthing is wrong. And Shooting Wolf .223 all the time gets really boring.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:20:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15:
Originally Posted By jtw2: You're an idiot.
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I forgive you for that. If you shot as much as I do (1000-1500+rds a month)you'd understand.
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Is it just the ammo that's expensive, or can I expect my gun to start falling apart if I shoot it too much?
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:27:47 AM EDT
no, just give up. soon you may develop urges to eat more fromage and have a bidet installed.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:33:14 AM EDT
If you shot as much as I do (1000-1500+rds a month)you'd understand. END Buy a 22 conversion kit. Or just buy a 22 rifle and supplement your shooting with that. I have sold every Ak I have owned. Nothing fun about guns that shoot minute of basket ball at 100 yards. Crappy sights, safety, ergonomics, hard to mount optics on. Ext. Sorry AK's are not for me. PAT
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:44:03 AM EDT
There is a big difference between upkeep costs and ammo costs. Upkeep makes it sound like you were breaking you guns every other day. Be glad you're not into hot-rodding cars! From my perspective, AR15's are a relatively cheap hobby. Nothing worse than having a $8k engine explode on the third or forth pass due to one little flawed bit of metal somewhere....
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 3:20:29 AM EDT
Wah! I wish that I had the time to shoot two or three guns on a regular basis. Two or three hours a week at the range is about all I can squeeze in.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:08:57 AM EDT
Living outside your means is a reality in all walks of life and all forms of recreation. I know people with meager incomes who pay $35 to $55 for greens fees.Ak's are good weapons and for the most part enjoyable to shoot(the sights suck terribly) and are economical. What I don't understand is if you already have the AR system (as you appear to) how is it going to be more economical to dump it and buy AK? Ammo is not that much cheaper when comparing Wolf 5.56 to Com/Bloc 5.45,and after all they are both originating from the same area of the world and made by the same people.So if you shoot 1000-1500 rds per month what is the savings? $25 to $40 per month? Hell man sell of some of those mags(50?..why?) and now it's only costing you $10-$15 per month. Keep 5 and sell 45@$20 ea gives you $900 to build/buy/accessorise/feed your AK and you still have both and in my opinion 5 30rd mags is plenty unless you're equiping for the end of the world in which case you may be dillusional.Keep your AR and get an AK or 2 while their cheap,you will never regret buying more but you will always regret selling a weapon. This is all just my unsolicited opinion and your mileage may vary.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:19:12 AM EDT
A lot of us are collectors as well as shooters, so your decision confuses us greatly. Have fun anyway. And there's no apostrophe in "ARs."
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 4:26:58 AM EDT
I'd at least keep one hanging on the wall to look at and when I would be lonely I would get it down and rug it. [8D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:12:26 AM EDT
Never say never - you might return to the system eventually. I go through the blahs with stuff too - Years ago when I was a pistol fanatic I'd shoot 6000 rounds of .45 ammo a year. Now, it's been over a year since I've reloaded a cartridge. Let us know how the new direction goes, and if you ever come out this far, look me up, we'll go shoot some of my ammo!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:29:17 AM EDT
Nothing really wrong with the AK system, but they are a LONG way behind the AR. Big mistake here IMO, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do...you'll be back.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:31:24 AM EDT
I'm telling you now, selling a gun is a bad idea. I've regretted every gun I ever sold. Had I kept them, all of them would be worth considerably more than I paid and certainly more than what I sold them for.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:31:37 AM EDT
Just let it sit near you. You can play with it even though you don't feed the ammo. Who cares? When you get a reliable paying job you will be wanting to go out and shoot. Who knows by then they will enact a bill to ban ALL ARs? Just keep them. Never get rid of a gun. Never.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 5:55:01 AM EDT
CM, I agree with the other guys. Don't sell your AR. Right now you're in a blue funk about ARs. Like the post above. Keep it but don't shoot it for a while. I go thru this with all my hobbies. One time it's getting a woody to buy a new Marshall amp, or a new Stratocaster. Next month I need a new .45...then back to other stuff. I bought a registered full auto Thompson and MP-40. A few years ago, a friend and I decided we would try skeet. We dove in with both feet. I bought a pair of new Reminton 1100's and he bought a new $10,000 Kreighoff O/U. Well, in 2 years we got good enough to be winning regional and national tournaments. Then poof...I lost interest...I was shooting 30,000 shotgun shells a year! Boom..not ONE since. It goes in phases. I hate to see you go because you've been a good guy to read. Take care in whatever you decide.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 6:19:18 AM EDT
If your main concern is cost, the AK is very cheap. The gun is cheaper, the ammo is cheaper, and there are far fewer accessories you will be able to buy for it. The AK however, is not in the same leauge as the AR. It is in fact, primitive in comparison. It is heavier, has more recoil, not user friendly, not as ergonomic, and far less accurate than the AR. The sights on an AK are of the same principle as WW1 era rifles.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 6:40:13 AM EDT
I came FROM AKs to the AR. I owned ONE SAR1. I have 2 ARs Yes, they can be picky, but the weight, recoil, and ergonomics are UNPARALLELLED IMO. The only rifles that come close are CETMEs (for ergo.). I would advise you not to dump your ARs outright. If you know a guy who has an AK, go shoot it and get a feel for it. I betcha you'll agree with me that the AR is a superior rifle.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:19:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 7:21:09 AM EDT by jfrush]
Hell man sell of some of those mags(50?..why?) and now it's only costing you $10-$15 per month. Keep 5 and sell 45@$20 ea gives you $900 to build/buy/accessorise/feed your AK and you still have both
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This is the best advice yet! You can have both! NEVER SELL A GUN!! Shoot the AK while your going to school. Keep the AR for later. Look at it this way, After you get out of school and get a good job you will be able to afford to shoot an AR again. If you sold yours you will have to buy another one and by that time they will likely be more expensive. And it is possible that they will ban even more features on the AR, or ban it altogether. making getting the one you want even more expensive. If you must sell some AR stuff to finance the AK then: I would keep all my lowers, 5 mags, an upper or two and sell the rest.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 7:36:07 AM EDT
I agree go with the AK. If you cant afford decent parts and build up rifles out of junk parts you will get malfunctions with an AR. I have never had one but I dont use cheap parts kits either. I sold my AKs and went pure AR. Id rather have 1 QUALITY AR than a whole collection of AKs. You are tired of shooting Wolf ammo in your AR? You will shoot nothing but Wolf in your 5.45 so that makes little sense. Also saying the 5.45 round is even close in terminal performance or accuracy to 5.56 ammo is a joke. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum, not similar at all. Unless you are talking WOLF 5.56 ammo, then I guess you are right. However I would never run Wolf in my AR.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:04:22 AM EDT
I guess your perspective decides what you will own. If you bought an AR as a toy, then it is an expensive toy. I bought my 16" Bushmaster as a home defense SHTF weapon to be used to save my neck and protect my home/family from bad guys. All I need for it is some decent M193 ball ammo, a dozen or so good magazines and an M3 mounted on it. If you get into gadget lust, you can spend thousands of dollars on a rifle. Keep it simple, however, and you will find out that you don't need all that much. Is the AR the best defensive rifle out there? Given the urban environment, yes. I prefer to have the power of the .308 (I am thinking of buying an FAL for this reason...) to penetrate hard targets, but for the suburbs the AR is a good rifle. My only beef with it is that AR's are a PIA to clean and keep clean. But even then the gun is capable of firing over 500 rounds before requiring another squirt of Tetra...
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:18:42 AM EDT
I also agree with you. This is a free market society. Your money, your purchase power. As an owner of several ARs, I, as you did, bought what I wanted at the time I bought them. I have only sold one AR, my first, to get up a down payment on my first house. I still regret that one, 11 years later. I'll not try to bs you into thinking that the AR is the end all, be all of military firearms. I don't have the time, or inclination. Or the delusion that you may beleive me. It is your money. It is your perogitave (sp???). Spend your money as you see fit. Fuck it! It's your $$$. Hope you get what you want out of what you have for sale, and find good deals on your future purchases. Just don't forget about us losers at ARFCOM....
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:24:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15:
Originally Posted By jtw2: You're an idiot.
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I forgive you for that. If you shot as much as I do (1000-1500+rds a month)you'd understand.
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I shoot around 2000 rnds a month and I still don't get it....
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:24:14 AM EDT
CM, Sorry to see you lose the ARs, hope you'll hang around the boards. Just remember the man is more important than the tool.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:37:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 8:39:03 AM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: I'm telling you now, selling a gun is a bad idea. I've regretted every gun I ever sold. Had I kept them, all of them would be worth considerably more than I paid and certainly more than what I sold them for.
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Bart, You are absolutely correct. Let me see what guns I have sold that i regret night after night.. SIG SG551 Steyr AUG x 2 FN FNC para HK 91 HK 93 HK 94 x 4 HK SP89 X 2 Galil AR Pre-ban Bushmasters x 10 ( At least) Benelli M3 folder I hate myself every now and then and have to run my head into a wall for all the guns I sold. [BD] Keep your guns, I use to think all guns are replaceable, WRONG!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 8:56:07 AM EDT
You're leaving AR's? Ok, Cya. We'll welcome ya back when you come crawling.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 9:13:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15:
Originally Posted By jtw2: You're an idiot.
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I forgive you for that. If you shot as much as I do (1000-1500+rds a month)you'd understand.
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Now THAT is a real man. I applaud your attitude.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 9:52:46 AM EDT
You don't desirve AR or M16 type weapons. So you shoot 1000 rnds a month, obviously if you are willing to accept an AK type weapons none of those rounds are in aimed fire.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 9:54:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15:
Originally Posted By Johnphin: I agree that acquisition costs are high, but I havn't had mine long enough to have to have spent a lot of money on upkeep. Now that you have your AR, exactly what is costing you so much money?
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[red]It's mainly ammo. I am a shooting addict. I have 12 guns that I get out and shoot all the time and it gets costly. I am a young guy who works part time, and I am going to be going back to school soon, so I just can't afford decent 5.56 ammo. When more than half the money you make in a month is going towards ammo, somthing is wrong. And Shooting Wolf .223 all the time gets really boring. [/red]
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Ever try reloading? I have my costs of 55 gr. FMJ (Remington) @3100 fps down to $.07 per round. Still cheaper than Wolf and shoots better than mil surplus in my experience
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:04:13 AM EDT
A quick look on Cheaper Than Dirt shows .223 to be 60 cents more per 20 rounds than 5.45 so 1500 rounds a month would be $45 extra. Selling a couple of mags a month would cover the difference and with 50 mags you've got at least 20 months worth of surplus should you go that route. I've recently started taking a lunch to work at least 3 days a week instead of buying out at some fast food joint and that's good for $10-15 a week. Good luck with whatever goes down.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:28:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2003 11:30:53 AM EDT by MaverickMkii]
1000 rounds per month is easily achievable if you shoot 250 rounds on each weekends. I currently shoot around 350 to 400 rounds a month. How about this? Promise yourself you will not shoot more than 2 or 3 magazines each week. I think that is sufficient.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:38:40 AM EDT
Sounds like another "AKs RULE" guy putting down the AR in a sweet way. 1k rnds. a month and letting go of all his ARs, YAH RIGHT! Even if I had one AR and shot 10rnds. a month will still not convine me to shoot rickedy AKs only.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:46:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee:
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: I'm telling you now, selling a gun is a bad idea. I've regretted every gun I ever sold. Had I kept them, all of them would be worth considerably more than I paid and certainly more than what I sold them for.
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Bart, You are absolutely correct. Let me see what guns I have sold that i regret night after night.. SIG SG551 Steyr AUG x 2 FN FNC para HK 91 HK 93 HK 94 x 4 HK SP89 X 2 Galil AR Pre-ban Bushmasters x 10 ( At least) Benelli M3 folder I hate myself every now and then and have to run my head into a wall for all the guns I sold. [BD] Keep your guns, I use to think all guns are replaceable, WRONG!!!!!!
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WoW! After reading that list I want to run your head into a wall! [;D]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 11:55:38 AM EDT
Neo-Cons????? What do they have to so with it? Last I checked, they are all pro-2nd. As to the rest, your business.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:07:37 PM EDT
If dissatisfaction with the weapon is the issue, then we can't dissuade you. BTW: what is a "mil-spec" AK? If money is the issue, you have more problems than can be solved switching to a new system. You have to cap the outgoing money before an influx of new cash will balance out. I also recommend against selling guns. Stop shooting, save your money, then make a decision.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 12:17:01 PM EDT
Any Shooter worth his salt that shoots all the time should have a Blue Reloader sitting on the Bench! AK74/47 IS MADE FOR SPRAY AND PRAY!!! IF YOU JUST LIKE TO HEAR BANG BANG GO AHEAD!! BUT DONT PLANE ON GETTING 1 INCH GROUPS @ 100 YARDS!
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:02:57 PM EDT
Unless you are a crazy maniac with a rifle and just blast away at anything and are addicted more to how many rounds you can shoot per range visit more than how many targets you hit, you will find the cost of ammo for a AK-74 will be more expensive once you realize that it'll take you more shots just to hit what an AR15 can hit in one shot. [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:29:39 PM EDT
okay here goes the can of worms, i've been in the infantry for 11 years now,i used to agree with you guys about the ak but in 1995 when my unit was sent to haiti we trianed on forein weapons with 5th group out of campbell. anyways i took the ak-74 to the same qual range we used are the m-16a2 on. i shot 34 out of 40 on the pop up range. i normally shoot 37 or 38. its not as bad as you guys make them out to be. i own a preban colt ar-15 and an ak-74. i say own both . don't sell anything yet wait till next september . lets see what happens. both are fine weapons. i'm on both sides of the fence on this one. \john/
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 1:43:16 PM EDT
You say your young so no matter what anyone says you will sell off the AR's. It is a mistake and you will regret doing so. But, I say sell them and get your AK's. Hell, I would have done it fifteen years ago myself, just because folks said it was a bad idea.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:29:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15: greedy vendors
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ROFL, now that's funny. If you think these vendors are "greedy", why don't you go into business and compete with them. After all, if they are so greedy, you should be able to drastically undercut their prices, and if you do that, you'll have people beating down your door to buy from you. Then you'll be able to afford more ammo than you can use.
Link Posted: 5/6/2003 2:53:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15: As to what assault rifle system I will be converting to, it will be custom built, bulgarian AK-74's
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You'll shoot your eye out with that thing, kid...
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 3:24:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 7:24:20 PM EDT
You're a month late there, Aimless.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 7:33:29 PM EDT
No no no, what he's doing is bringing up a thread to contrast his other thread where he likely took all that AR15 money and then dumped into another really expensive SL8 conversion to a G36 clone that takes AR15 mags..... And probably a Toady abortion. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=162059[/url]
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 7:38:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ConfederatemummyAR15: When more than half the money you make in a month is going towards ammo, somthing is wrong.
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I totally agree with that but don't blame your lack of financial responsibility on a rifle. There doesn't seem to be a problem with the rifle, the problem is with your "addiction". If you don't address that then you'll overspend on whatever type of firearm you buy next and you won't have improved your situation at all. Good luck and I hope you can get your spending under control before it causes you bigger problems than what internet people say about your firearm selection.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 8:04:46 PM EDT
Later dude, don't forget to shut the door behind you.
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